Titre de sejour (Yes, again)

[Debra]

Before arguing, take the time to read what I have said and read the page on the website that explains about the problems associated with the constitutive method as opposed to the declaratory method of handling applications.

If there is no deal then anyone without a carte de sejour won't have easy proof of previous legal residence and if they work, it could cause problems because it's illegal to employ a third country national without a carte de sejour. That may not concern you but it does others.

A carte de sejour permanent is a handy thing to have regardless of brexit. Ask anyone who has had a change of circumstances which meant proving their rights to CAF - or even the standard 'prove your droit de sejour' letter. Both can involve all family benefits being stopped while you gather the proof of your right to stay (if you have 3 children or more this is a substantial amount to suddenly lose from your budget). You can show a cds to prove your rights - or the file of paperwork you need to apply for it. I know which I'd rather carry around with me.

[alittlebitfrench]

@ Debra

How long have you had a CDS ?

[Debra]

Some people aren't bothered themselves because they know that there are various reasons they can't be subject to an OQTF and even if they were served one, they can eventually get it reversed and be given a titre de sejour. (If you're so concerned about causing extra work and costs to the French bureaucracy, why leave it until something like that happens?) I know I can't be subject to an OQTF and neither can my children but I've still organised cartes de sejour and a TIR for us because I don't want any glitches to spoil the smooth running of our lives due to brexit.

Even if I hadn't bothered - the fact that I know I'm safe regardless doesn't mean I'd be so irresponsible as to tell others not to bother because it will all work out ok in the end when it may not for some and even for those who are technically 'safe', for whom it will work out ok in the end, I'd rather it went smoothly for them than for them to receive an OQTF, have to appeal it and go to a tribunal to have it reversed before eventually receiving a titre de sejour, meanwhile having the stress of having any benefits that rely on a valid right to stay unavailable to them (including healthcare, though that can prove easier to resolve with CPAM than CAF issues).

You're alright Jack but not everyone may be so why interfere?

[Debra]

alittlebitfrench: "@ Debra

How long have you had a CDS ?"

Since May 2017. After a number of problems (losing healthcare and prestations familiales) after separation from my ex in 2013 and those being eventually (2.5 years later) resolved by proof of my permanent residence rights and a couple of SOLVIT complaints, I was advised by SOLVIT to get a carte de sejour permanent, which would protect me from similar problems in future. I was busy with other things which resulted from the split and so didn't bother at the time as everything was back on track. The Brexit referendum result prompted me to apply for it. It took 9 months from start to finish and that was before the prefectures got so busy.

I'm pretty sure you know all this (unless you have a mind like a sieve) but I've answered for others' benefit.

[nomoss]

Debra. Your patience amazes me.

Didn't you use to teach backward children?

Should I have said "children with special needs"? - having left the UK nearly 60 years ago I'm not au fait with the latest PC euphemisms.

[alittlebitfrench]

I guess your situation is quite unique Debra and having a CDS can only be a positive.

There are 300 k +++ Brits living in France, the prefectures will not be able to cope with everyone applying for a CDS. Telling everyone to 'rush' out and get one is making a bad situation worse because most don't need one straight away.

I found my old CDS (second one) the other day. Issued in Lyon. I can't even remember applying for it. LOL.

God I was young in the photo. Middle/late twenties ???

Quite dashing as well I have to admit.

If Nomoss (2018 personality of year) is correct....I guess my number still applies.

[EuroTrash]

Debra wrote: "The Ministry of the Interior recommend that we get one now"

I would still like to see the source for this, as I asked a few pages back. All I've found from the French Ministry is a comment to the effect that Brits will need a carte de séjour document after Brexit. I would like to see the quote where they actually recommend that we get on now, and I will then wind my neck in and retract most of what I said earlier.

[Debra]

Eurotrash the British Embassy have said this in their news bulletin and have updated the general info page about living in France to that effect if you'd like to check on the gov.uk website. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-france#visas-and-residency

For those in the Dordogne, see this note about the reminder sent out by the Ministry of the Interior in March which emphasises that they have to issue the cards (but this doesn't help with their resources problem)

http://www.dordogne.gouv.fr/content/download/26095/187530/file/S%C3%A9jour.pdf

[EuroTrash]

Yes but people keep saying the French Ministry have advised people to apply NOW, and I just want to see this for myself.

I know the British Embassy have said it. But to turn it round, I'm not sure how kindly the HMG would take to EU citizens in the UK all following the advice of the embassies of their native countries when it comes to applying for settled status, rather than doing what HMG wants them to do.

[Doodle]

Well I was in the middle of gathering 5 years worth of documents for the TdS to prove we’ve been here (11 actually) when in the midst of it came the request from Ameli stating it was urgent that I sent all the required docs to continue in the health system. 357 pages of scanning and then printing all of the documents has left me scwwwiffffy eyed and now……….very reluctantly I’m at it again for a TdS permanent for myself and the OH. So for the last couple of weeks I have been feeling really fed up with it all and really miffed cos in 2007 we applied to our local maire for a CdS who contacted the Prefecture. She in turn came back to us with the comments that they would not issue one as it was not necessary even though I referred to having no ID except my pissport. I don’t drive (never learnt) and so have been carrying around my passport for the past 11 years keeping one eye on my bag in case it got ‘nicked’ - I know an unlikely scenario in France but………anyhow back to this thread and I would like to say thank goodness for the RIFT site (Debra) for the very helpful advice and I suppose when and if I get this card I can consigne my passport to a safe place which will be a bonus. Sorry for the rant - I’m taking a break from the printer and numerous documents that have decided to fly off of the printer’s tray and cascade themselves all around the floor in no particular order! FFS!! Mrs KG

[Debra]

Eurotrash - The British Embassy is informing us on that page that the French authorities advise us to apply now. It's their job to keep us informed - which they're a bit slow at but they have published this advice now. Or are you saying you don't believe what the British Embassy says about their liaison with the French authorities and the advice given?

[Debra]

Mrs KG you'll heave a sigh of relief when it's all done and you have that handy little card to flash at CPAM in future :)

The guy who handled my request told me it's proof of your rights and not official ID but I've tried it in various scenarios and it's been accepted as ID in preference to my passport or driving licence - and the address and marital status on it is more up to date on that on my driving licence.

[Cathar Tours]

Well watching the German news last night there was an interview with Michael Roth the European/Brexit Minister.

One of the questions May asked Merkel was how would Germany react if she stopped Brexit. Apparently she asked Macron the same question.

Roth pointed out that it would be against the democratic referendum result of the British people although it is not for him, Germany or the EU to interfere in UK politics. His feeling was having talked to many of his counterparts privately in the other EU27 was that it would be allowed but there would be two conditions. Firstly the UK loses it's veto vote and secondly it would have to accept the Euro.

It seems that there is a possibility of May pulling the plug on Brexit on the grounds that it would be best for the country, she has tried her hardest to get a deal and of course it was all Barnier's fault.

So in other words nothing may happen and you can all carry on as normal with or without your CDS.

[Debra]

That would be nice (though I'd still value my carte de sejour permanent as easy proof of my acquired rights even if I remain an EU Citizen). However, I'm not sure it would be legal to insist on those things if the UK withdraw the article 50 notice before they've actually left. Aren't various aspects about that still being tested in court?

[EuroTrash]

I'm just saying that I would have liked to see the advice for myself. Interpret that as you like.

Because it seems odd that the British Embassy says that, when the French government websites have been recently updated to stress that at present UK citizens do not need a cds. Now, if France really wanted us to apply for one, why would it have done that?

It's true I'm not a great admirer of the British Embassy. Judging by past personal experience, their main concern used be saying whatever made their own jobs easier, and doing as little as possible. However I do understand the reason for this, and maybe they're not quite so underfunded and understaffed these days and are able to be more helpful.

[Debra]

They've employed extra people in each Embassy to liaise between the local authorities and British residents. Still not enough really, but it's a start.

Did you read the link from the Dordogne that I posted, re the reminder sent out to prefectures in March this year about issuing us with cartes de sejour?

They can't actually say they are necessary while we are still EU Citizens, but they can encourage us to apply and explain to the prefectures that our applications should be processed and the cards issued, which is what they have done.

[Un autre Gallois]

Too much vitriol on this subject by some posters with time on their hands who are ignoring "a chacun son choix" ! Mrs UAG and myself applied (and obtained) without any undue difficulty/delay our CdS longue durée shortly after the referendum voted for exit, merely to replace our original CdS issued in 2001. We didn't need or ask for advice, it was quite simply a choice we made, Those who chose to wait, or not apply/renew are now worrying about the French penchant for administration/ arguing about the necessity/usefulness of the card. Just close the subject!

UAGallois

[idun]

For most of our time in France we were not in the situation of other than 'having' to have proper paperwork. So we did.

Debra, especially with the health care problems you did exactly the right thing. And the details you have given are great!

I would always have one, but I learned a long time ago in France that being 'in' their system is very comforting for fonctionnaires.

For those who don't think they should get a CdS and have been in France

for quite a  while and are what appears to me to be rather complacent or

should that be compliant, with what french fonctionnaires are telling

you, well don't bother.

What I don't 'get' about some of the questions from some of you who have been in France for quite some time, is how you haven't assimilated 'rale'ing'.  Especially when you have the written proof on here and are being told nonsense by your prefecture. The french do it all the time, it is the only way to deal with the authorities.

ps, It has been said on here over many many years, but keep all your paper work. Amazing how it comes in when needed.

[EuroTrash]

LOL.

The thing is that to have a good rale, you need to feel quite strongly about whatever it is that you're rale-ing about. I can't rale about something I don't totally believe in. If it occurs to me mid-rale that actually, the other person does have a point -. which sometimes it does, because I do listen to the other side - then I stop.

As indeed I will do right now, not because I've changed my mind about anything but because it is, after all, up to each individual.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Cathar Tours"]Well watching the German news last night there was an interview with Michael Roth the European/Brexit Minister.

One of the questions May asked Merkel was how would Germany react if she stopped Brexit. Apparently she asked Macron the same question.

Roth pointed out that it would be against the democratic referendum result of the British people although it is not for him, Germany or the EU to interfere in UK politics. His feeling was having talked to many of his counterparts privately in the other EU27 was that it would be allowed but there would be two conditions. Firstly the UK loses it's veto vote and secondly it would have to accept the Euro.

It seems that there is a possibility of May pulling the plug on Brexit on the grounds that it would be best for the country, she has tried her hardest to get a deal and of course it was all Barnier's fault.

So in other words nothing may happen and you can all carry on as normal with or without your CDS.[/quote]

What a great time to pull out.

[nomoss]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]LOL.

The thing is that to have a good rale, you need to feel quite strongly about whatever it is that you're rale-ing about. I can't rale about something I don't totally believe in. If it occurs to me mid-rale that actually, the other person does have a point -. which sometimes it does, because I do listen to the other side - then I stop.

As indeed I will do right now, not because I've changed my mind about anything but because it is, after all, up to each individual.[/quote]

If that's an English word, I believe it's spelt rail.

[EuroTrash]

"If that's an English word, I believe it's spelt rail."

But I never use the word in that sense in English. "To rail" sounds quaint and nambypamby, it doesn't have the same satisfying ring as "râler", with a nice gutteral "r" and a wide open vowel, like an animal growling. Lovely word.

[nomoss]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]"If that's an English word, I believe it's spelt rail."

But I never use the word in that sense in English. "To rail" sounds quaint and nambypamby, it doesn't have the same satisfying ring as "râler", with a nice gutteral "r" and a wide open vowel, like an animal growling. Lovely word.[/quote]

But râler means to grouse and grumble, a miserable, inadequate and fluffy substitute for the screaming indignation of one who rails against injustice[:D]

[Judith]

Mrs KG, I sympathise.  Just done all that (I hope) fingers crossed, and I know exactly what you mean. Just when you thought you'd got everything, something else needs doing.  We had a rdv last Friday (an exceptionally hot day, not nice to be in a big city on a day like that!), but they wanted translations of documents we had ... not he birth etc certificates, they were done.  So, no I did NOT spend the weekend doing the translations, assermenté not required, it was, she said, because she did not understand then enough), so I did it Monday / Tuesday, in the every increasing heat (brain fade to fried), sent it off yesterday and today found I'd forgotten another doc ... Grrrr. indeed. Got a new cartridge for the printer ready to put on after this lot, but did I change it for the last stuff, no way, they can read the faint print ...

Good luck, I do wish you very well.

[Judith]

Debra, just saying "hi", and nice to see you on here too, giving us all the facts you give us on RIFT.  Sometimes it's a shame we can't just do a thumbs up (or down) on here, as can happen on FB ...  you know, I'm almost (not a lot) looking forward to March 2019, when at least we will know where we stand ... meanwhile, CdS permanent, hopefully on its way!