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Titre de sejour (Yes, again)


CeeJay
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FFS

LEAVE THESE PEOPLE ALONE !!

They have enough to do sorting out Visa's for people who really need them. Nevermind refugees and all that etc..

Some pompous Brit walking into a prefecture saying "it is my right to have 'CDS' SO I WANT ONE" is only going to wind them up. It is also going have an adverse effect on the rest of us who are patiently waiting.

STOP AND WAIT UNTIL THEY TELL YOU WHAT YOU NEED TO APPLY FOR !!!
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WOW

It is peoples right and if they want one they should get one.

That aside who says you are right and they or wrong or they are right and you are wrong?

Who is US by the way or are you referring to just yourself?

If all this causes you such anger and you can't offer constructive advice then perhaps it's best you saved your self the stress and not post.

YOU HAVE A RIGHT OT A CDS PROVIDING YOU MEET THE CRITERIA SO IF YOU WANT ONE GET ONE. IF THEY REFUSE THEN USE THE COMPLAINT PROCEEDURE AS DESCRIBED BY OTHERS IF YOU WANT TO AND DON'T BE BULLIED BY THEM OR PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM TO DO OTHERWISE.
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[quote user="Cathar Tours"]WOW

It is peoples right and if they want one they should get one.

That aside who says you are right and they or wrong or they are right and you are wrong?

Who is US by the way or are you referring to just yourself?

If all this causes you such anger and you can't offer constructive advice then perhaps it's best you saved your self the stress and not post.

YOU HAVE A RIGHT OT A CDS PROVIDING YOU MEET THE CRITERIA SO IF YOU WANT ONE GET ONE. IF THEY REFUSE THEN USE THE COMPLAINT PROCEEDURE AS DESCRIBED BY OTHERS IF YOU WANT TO AND DON'T BE BULLIED BY THEM OR PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM TO DO OTHERWISE.[/quote]

Seconded, especially the bullying comment.

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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]FFS

LEAVE THESE PEOPLE ALONE !!

They have enough to do sorting out Visa's for people who really need them. Nevermind refugees and all that etc..

Some pompous Brit walking into a prefecture saying "it is my right to have 'CDS' SO I WANT ONE" is only going to wind them up. It is also going have an adverse effect on the rest of us who are patiently waiting.

STOP AND WAIT UNTIL THEY TELL YOU WHAT YOU NEED TO APPLY FOR !!![/quote]

And what is that little rant all about?[:(]

Even implying that because officials have other tasks that issuing a CDS is unimportant or a lesser one, is nonsense.

I often used my various cards over the years, handy and I prefered using them to carting my passport with me all the time.

Fonctionnaires make their own rules up and sometimes they have to be pulled up and shown the rules/laws and do their bloody jobs.

No one be put off by being told anything by lazy fonctionnaires.

Good luck with getting your cards, and yes, get them, they prove steady residence and if new paperwork is required in the future, then that is already a sort of official 'proof'.

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It is not bullying.

YOU DON'T NEED ONE !!!

Why put more stress on an overstretched service ? Why put more workload on people that really don't need the hassle ?

Just because it is you right does not mean you have to do it ? The emails from the prefecture are basically (reading between the lines) telling you to please go away.

There are probably 300 k plus Brits living in France. If they all went down to their local prefecture to apply for something they don't need the service would explode.

There are people who come from outside of the EU that need correct documentation to live and work. Let the prefecture deal with them.

God almighty.
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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]

There are probably 300 k plus Brits living in France. If they all went down to their local prefecture to apply for something they don't need the service would explode [/quote]

That's exactly why people are applying now.

So what exactly do you think will happen after Brexit?

God almighty!
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Well I think in all conscience I have to back ALBF here because that is my view too.

I guess we all of us have rights that we don't insist on, either because they're of no interest at all to us, sometimes because we don't even know we have them, but sometimes because insisting on them would cause significant inconvenience to other people in exchange for at best a very small benefit to ourselves.

If people have been living here quite happily for 10 years or so without a CdS, as I have, and never once felt deprived, I don't see how it can suddenly become so indispensible to life itself. We know we will need one, but that's "will" need one as in the future tense.

I'm sorry but it reminds me of some years back when there was talk of introducing an owner occupier tax, and as soon as the Brit community latched onto it, folk were immediately rushing to their tax offices demanding to know how much their tax would be and getting all steamed up when the tax people brushed them away. Does anyone else remember this? In the end the whole idea was shelved but good grief, the hot air and wrath that was vented on forums about incompetent tax offices that had refused to give them a figure for a non-existent tax. Very like the prefecture not being able to tell anyone what the future rules for docmentation for resident Brits will be.

So yes it is our right but before we insist on it, maybe stop and consider the bigger picture. And if you still want one then fair enough.

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"So what exactly do you think will happen after Brexit?"

After Brexit, France will have decided how to proceed, they'll presumably set up a system (I'm hoping it'll be possible to apply online and I think there is a reasonable chance of this) and most importantly, they will be able to issue Brits with the document they actually need, rather than with a document that they don't need and that will become invalid in less than a year from now.
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Why would they create a special system for the Brits especially when even members of the UK government are saying that there is now only a slim likelihood of there being any deal?

France, just like the UK and many other countries already has in place a system for people outside the EU becoming resident. Indeed if you read through the links and compare what is required for a CDS by either non EU and EU citizens it is the same (unless children are involved).

In fact from helping my father get his CDS it seems quite easy to do and it is free at the moment.

Actually if your numbers are correct (300,000) then if they all applied for a CDS now and the UK left the EU with no deal and France revoked their residency it would clog up the ECHR for years and France couldn't turn them out until a verdict is given. Not to mention that many would probably have died by the time the verdict is given.

Indeed to create a special "card" for Brits after Brexit is somewhat discriminatory, what would it say "Country of origin Great Britain Ex EU member". I can see tens of thousands of Brits lining up to take France to court on that one.

But the debate is about rights really and people have the right to ask for one If you decide not to bother what message does that send and what right is next on the list to be ignored? Perhaps because your British they don't have to send a fire engine if your house catches fire? This is exactly what the ECHR was created for, to protect peoples rights and if you don't use them you are in great danger of losing them.

A civil servant is there to apply the law not to decide it's interpretation. I think IDUN is spot on it that. Believe me this would not happen in Germany. They would be to frightened of losing their job and the lovely (very substantial) pension that goes with it.
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I don't usually link to British sites, preferring to consult the appropriate official French documentation, but in the smokescreen thrown up by certain idiotic comments made by someone who obviously has never seen a CdS judging by the inaccuracies in the description (won't fit in a wallet or back pocket etc) I will just give a couple of links to the interesting site that Judith recommended:

1) We recommend that all British people living in France now apply for a Carte de Séjour. The

same advice has been given by the French Ministry of the Interior,

whose responsibility this is, and by the British Embassy.

2) problems and issues with cartes de séjour

There is a lot of confusion about this issue and I reckon that it is one about which there should be no willful mischief-making.

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Hi Norman. From your "Remain in France" link I noticed the comment:

"France is the only EU27 country not to require EU citizens moving from

another country to register or report their presence: in all other

countries there are formalities to undergo after 3 months of residence.

France has actually passed legislation requiring all resident EU

citizens from elsewhere to register (see above), but has never published

the arrêté which would prescribe how this would work and insert this

into domestic law, therefore it's not, at present, a requirement."

I know that, after we left there, Spain began requiring registration with the Town Hall within 3 months of arrival. When we were there this was done automatically if one owned property and paid local taxes.
Our son lives in Denmark, and told me years ago that he had to register after 3 months there, but I didn't realise that France is the only EU country without such a requirement.

Perhaps my link above, referring to registration at the Mairie, is an indication that France is now following the same way, which makes me pleased I already did what they recommended some time ago.

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Attention :vous devez vous faire

enregistrer auprès du maire de votre commune de résidence dans les 3

mois suivant votre arrivée
. Si vous ne respectez pas cette obligation,

vous êtes considérés comme résidant en France depuis moins de 3 mois

In fact it always used to be the case that you had to get a CdS, which acted as the registeration procedure. When that stopped  being the case, around 2002 or so nothing was put in place, so it seems that they are tightening up.
It would seem judicious either to apply for a CdS or failing that to make certain that one is appropriately registered.

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"The same advice has been given by the French Ministry of the Interior, whose responsibility this is,"

Could you give a link to this, please?

I have seen a lot of references to an article in the Connexion that made this comment and then didn't back it up, and the only thing I could find from the French side was a comment that Brits will have to have some kind of residency permit after Brexit. Which is saying something very different, in fact it's doing no more than stating the bleedin' obvious.

Why do I think a system will be put in place to deal with Brits post Brexit, well first of all because that again is bleedin' obvious, and secondly because there have been various passing references in the French media to how it will likely be dealt with, along with assurances that nobody needs panic and plenty of time will be allowed for everybody to sort out the paperwork they need.

As for saying that anyone who never registered with their mairie will be regarded as having been here for less than 3 months, that's one of the worst bits of scaremongering I've seen. So you have 10 years of tax returns, 10 years of paying CFE, 10 years of French business accounts, 10 years of health cover attestations, and you are seriously claiming that they'll say you arrived within the last 3 months because you never registered at the mairie when you arrived (even though 10 years ago this wasn't a requirement)?
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1) If it's scaremongering it is being done by the service public
see nomoss's link and explanation since I have simply copied what is said on their site:

Click on "Tout deplier", see "Attention"

This may have come about as a side-effect of  the change of the law on the 1st August which concerned ayslum seekers:

The comment about the French Interior ministry is not mine but a quotation from the link I gave so you would have to contact the site to ask for its source. I did precede the link with the caveat that it was a British site....with all that that implies

I don't really follow why you say:
"from the French side was a comment that Brits will have to have some

kind of residency permit after Brexit. Which is saying something very

different
, in fact it's doing no more than stating the bleedin' obvious.

Surely that means they are saying Brits will need a  CdS???

Non-EU citizens who have held a TdS which comes to an end have the right to convert to a permanent residence permit.
Si vous êtes titulaire d'une carte de résident ou d'une carte de résident de longue durée - UE de 10 ans qui arrive à expiration, vous pouvez en demander le renouvellement ou demander une carte de résident permanent.Cette

carte vous ouvre un droit au séjour inconditionnel et permanent en

France, sauf menace à l'ordre public. Elle est délivrée sous certaines

conditions.

Are you saying that you have inside information that Brits with a CdS giving them permanent residence will not have the right to convert? Can you quote your source?

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"Surely that means they are saying Brits will need a CdS??? "

Yes exactly. It is saying that they will need one. It is not saying that they should apply for one now.

I don't understand your last couple of paras. I didn't say anything at all about converting.
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I know that we have different opinions about this probably, as if often the case, because our experience has been different.
 I have had  a CdS since I came to France as they were obligatory, and I have always simply renewed it as there was no disadvantage in doing so.

You, I imagine, have never had to have one, and see no point in going through the hoops for something that may not be valid once the UK is  out of Europe.
We both agree that it simply states the fact that you have proved your rights to the French authorities, it doesn't in itself change them.

My hope is that my CdS 'permanent ' (renewable every 10 years as is a UK passport) will either continue to be accepted, or  will be easily converted  as in the case of non-EU people I linked to above.
Even if a completely new document is required the process of acquiring all the paperwork that I  have been through  is not wasted; and as the last time I renewed (in  Foix which is a different Préfecture from the one that issued the previous card) they had access to all my previous information. (Remember that this is not the local government as represented by a Mairie that organises this, it is national, a branch of the Police).

In short,  while no one says there British people need a CdS before  March 2019,  I have not seen any argument that to show that if someone wishes to obtain one, as is their right, they shouldn't apply , apart from the suggestion that it might  be  a waste of time, but for the moment that is as much guesswork as is my hope that mine might be accepted or ve converted..

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The Ministry of the Interior recommend that we get one now, as do the British Embassy. Instructions have been sent by the Ministry to the prefectures to remind them (again) that we should be issued with them. We are keeping certain organisations, including the Ministry of the Interior, informed of the kind of problems people are having. The British Embassy are in more contact with the Ministry of the Interior now than they have been in the past and are passing on complaints about prefectures. RIFT and British in Europe are also liaising with the Ministry of the Interior and the British Embassy. I am passing on examples of certain types of complaint to ECAS because some of these issues have already been highlighted by them in connection with France (and some other EU member states) in their reports about the state of Freedom of Movement. ECAS are addressing these issues with the EU commission. If people don't apply and tell us of problems then those problems won't be addressed.

Perigueux wasn't doing so well and we addressed the concerns to the Ministry of the Interior and then they were doing better but since then they've been overwhelmed. The way they have handled this now, until they can get more resources allocated to them, is to only issue one appointment per day to British people because otherwise they can't cope with their 'normal' processing of third country nationals whose need is greater than ours at the moment. A couple of other prefectures have gone the same way and we are meeting with them to try and resolve these problems. Some prefectures are issuing appointments now not only well into next year but into 2020. They need more resources and the only way this can be highlighted is if people do keep applying and then report if they have problems.

The Ministry of the Interior have made it clear that those with permanent residence rights will be their priority after the UK has left, to have their situation regularised. According to the Connexion interview, those who already have cards (permanent or temporary) will keep them until they are due for renewal, but we don't have that in officially in writing.

If the withdrawal agreement is ratified then it states that if we need a new type of card then it will be swapped free of charge and with minimal documentation required (current proof of address, ID and an attestation that you haven't left the country for more than a certain period since the card was issued). That doesn't mean that France would necessarily make us swap the cards as the fact that they were issued before the exit date is proof that we have rights under the withdrawal agreement. These rights will be in addition to the rights we will have as newly minted third country nationals under the directives which concern them.

It is likely that a new, special card would be introduced for us because if we already live here we won't have the same status as Brits who arrive in future, nor as other third country nationals and not even as others who are EU Citizens now. We will have a special set of rights under the withdrawal agreement - some the same as we have now, some that we have now may be missing and some will be diffferent. For instance, we will have the right to return after up to 5 years absence whereas EU Citizens only have the right to return after up to 2 years absence.

We don't know yet whether France will continue to use the declaratory system of issuing us with cards that they use now or switch to the constitutive system preferred by the UK. I suggest people read this page on the RIFT website to understand that this raises particular concerns about whether to apply now or later: https://www.remaininfrance.org/registration-procedures.html

Re the law about registering at the mairie - if you check the actual law in CESEDA it states that an arrete which specifies the format of the registration certificate (which could simply be the temporary carte de sejour) will be issued. I'm not aware that this has been issued (unless it's part of the law linked to above, which I haven't checked) so as far as I know, that law is in place but not activated by the issue of the arrete yet. I'll double check though, since the service public site is usually up to date and it seems odd that it's been added on there without the codicil about the arrete being issued.
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Thanks Debra, very useful.

However, if ones prefecture refuses to accept that you have the right to have one, what does one do.

I'm glad you mentioned Perigueux, they have always been awkward even with issuing a carte vital 10 years ago.

Surely the same should happen in every prefecture?
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Late to this, as, guess what, yesterday I was doing all the paperwork translations needed after rdv for CdS last week.

I can only emphasise, and support NormanH, and Debra, who posted (again) the information from www.remaininfrance.org, which I had posted before ... ALL THE INFORMATION YOU NEED TO KNOW IS THERE.   Why continue to discuss what you think personally is needed, when the correct pointers have been given.

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Cathar Tours wrote,

Also mention that you believe they are being racist and that you will be reporting that as well. My father found the latter worked well and got results although after using it he couldn't go back again (wink).

So, as your father could not get his own way, he accused someone who was just doing their job, of being racist. Perhaps he should have said also they were N-A-Z-I-S and the person who he had the disagreement with, was in fact, A-D-O-L-F H-I-T-L-E-R. I believe that works well also.

You must be so proud of your Dad.

# BoJo4PM.
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If you're refused for any reason other than that you haven't provided sufficient proof of something, get it in writing and let the British Embassy know and possibly raise a SOLVIT complaint.

If it's because of lack of resources at the prefecture then they can't help that at the moment but we can help them by passing the information on to the Ministry of the Interior, who need to know the extent of the problems.

Join RIFT and take part in the surveys about problems in applying for cartes de sejour - all the information gathered is to be passed to the Ministry of the Interior.

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Hang on a minute Debra.....

If you meet the requirements for a CDS before Brexit does that mean that you will no longer meet the requirements after ??

What I am saying is, you can apply for a CDS now, or wait until after Brexit and apply for the' 'new' card. Your ability to meet the requirements does not change.

You may as well wait and apply for the new card. NO ? Save yourself and the prefecture the hassle.

If you meet the requirements now or after, if changes nothing.

I just see panicking Brits running around like headless chickens and a newspaper that wants to sell more newspapers.

Like I said earlier, if you have moved to France this year (or maybe in the last two years) and Brexit goes ahead then you are in trouble. If you have been living below the radar....(we know who we are talking about) you deserve your own fate.

But, lets be honest.....Brexit ain't happening.

Now go and enjoy the nice cool weather.

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