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French Citizenship, a question (or two actually)


Cathar Tours
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My father has got it into his head after talking to a British couple where he lives that he can apply for French citizenship based on him now having an indefinite residency right and because of his age he will not have to meet all the requirements. I believe for somebody like me I would have to pass a written and oral exam but these people are telling him because he is over 60 he won't have to. Apparently you need to know French history (with some form of exam or test) and he would be exempt from that as well. If it were not for the fact he does not go to pubs and bars it sounds very much like "This bloke down the pub says...". So the first question is any of this true?

The next question refers to dual nationality. In Germany for instance if you come from another EU country you can have dual nationality. If you come from a non EU country you can't. Is this also the case in France?

A brief resume in English would be both appreciated and helpful and any French documents or links I will try and translate using Google.

I saw something called TCF, what's that all about? (sorry that makes it three questions.)

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His age exempts him from a formal test in French, but he would still have a challenging interview in the language to test his knowledge of French history, culture and society.
Here is a link about this which also has a link to the booklet which outlines the things that are discussed ( le livret du citoyen)

I don't believe he is exempt from this ot any other of the many requirements

At the moment one can hold dual British/French nationality

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Thank you.

So whilst he does not have to have a certificate of some sort to say he speaks, reads and writes perfect French he still needs to speak pretty good French for his interview.

The bit about not needing to know French history etc. is absolute rubbish.

I shall tell him to forget about it and stick with his CDS.
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Not in any way directed at CT's father, but more at "the bloke in the pub" who is the source of the original misinformation.

In the current international climate, even before overlaying Brexit on top, why do Brits seem to think that there might be a chance they can get French nationality on a wing and a prayer, knowing how hard it is for people to get British nationality? Seems like another of those scenarios where there is a certain group who believe that being British confers some sort of divine right, and other countries will be falling over themselves to have us. It's almost as delusional as the BS being peddled by Boris and Jacob Reese-Mogg....
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I don't know why knowing about french history is a load of rubbish????

IF someone wants to be french, or any other nationality, then surely they should have general knowledge of  much about  their  prospective adopted country, including the language, and if they cannot be bothered, then  why should the adoptees be bothered.

And that is why I could never ever have considered french nationality. Because for all I always was very interested in things french, and like lots of things french, I am not, not one bit of me is. And I thought rather more of the french than believing getting nationality should ever be a flag of convenience.

And that is just how I feel about it.
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I agree Betty it is rather bizarre.

My father is fretting because he is frightened and thinks if things get nasty he could be thrown out of his home and deported back to the UK. Of course this isn't going to happen.

His problem is language. It's not that he doesn't speak French it's just that he doesn't speak it very well. He is not a very articulate speaker either, not even in English.

History is not a big problem, I merely mentioned what these people said. He would just have to brush up on dates and a couple of other things. He likes history in general does my old man. Fortunately much of French and British history is intertwined.

Some countries are "falling over themselves to have us", but not because of some divine right but because in some employment areas the UK has a very good reputation of turning out high quality graduates. To be honest I wouldn't of thought of moving to Germany if it were not for them coming to my university on career days and actively looking to employ people with good degrees. What with Brexit it all fell in to place rather nicely. They have got me my Blue Card (in preparation for next March) and are helping me gain German citizenship not to mention better my education even further by assisting me to get my masters.

I mentioned our "club" night in another post and it seems to me that amongst the younger generation we feel we are European first and British second. Once we have our citizenship it with be European first, German second and born in the UK, in that order. Different age group, different mind set.

Idun - I hope you didn't think I was saying French history I rubbish? What I was saying was that these people are talking rubbish by saying you don't need to know it once your over 60.
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I don't think your feelings are *entirely* or exclusively confined to a younger generation, CT. It's a pity, though a sad fact, that (if we're generalising) this would be the same "younger generation" who in large part actually couldn't be arsed to vote in the referendum, or the outcome could have been so much different. Not sure how that works from a "mind-set" perspective, but it's a sad fact.

As a parent, my kids grew up used to me travelling the world for work, and it fostered in them the same interest and openness. Both now travel around in their very different spheres of work, not confined by any means to Europe. There's a great big world out there that certainly doesn't end at the EU borders.
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It saddened me to read CT's ccomment about it being a load of rubbish to be expected to know something about the country that you are asking for citizenship from. Surely it's only respectful, apart from anything else. If you don't respect and value a country for what it is, only for what it can give you, nuff said.

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Betty - I think the same could be said across the generations sadly.

Unfortunately there are only two geographical areas in the world for my type of work, Europe and the US. There is Japan as well but it's a closed society so getting a job there is out of the question unless sent from a subsidiary but that does not interest me personally. I can't see myself living in the US for the foreseeable future yet ironically the company I work for is American but does it's R&D in Europe. This is extra good for me because the first language of the company is English. Hopefully my second language will become English as I move towards German citizenship.

EuroTrash - Those that I work with see the EU as a single entity and themselves as European. To them the current situation is like you (assuming your British) having your nationality taken from you because a slim majority of others have said it should. Taking another countries nationality is simply seen as a way of remaining European, more the point an EU citizen. If the UK had stayed part of the EU then I and the others wouldn't have to go down this route.
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I don't think the view of those you work with, is held universally throughout member states, and in France particularly. In fact there's regular public debate about what it means to be French; I think the last was in 2010 or thereabouts, there were polls in the press and online where every citizen could give their views, and the general consensus has always been a very long way from saying that being French means being in the EU melting pot. The French feel very strongly that they don't want to see their national identity and language and culture diluted or hijacked.

Just sayin'.
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I don't think any member state of the EU wants to see their language and culture being diluted or hijacked and that's not what the EU is attempting to do in any way or means. It is up to each member state how it gives citizenship to immigrants, always has been and will continue to be. Young French people have gained a lot because of the EU mainly because of the right to work and live in another country as have many other EU nationalities.

I personally don't take much notice of polls, they seem more often to be wrong rather than right. Poll results are easy to fix, ask the right questions in the right way of the right people and you get the result you want. I wonder how much politics was involved in the polls you mentioned?

The problem with nationalists they often bring out the worse in people. Sajid Javid today is quoted as saying he does not want people going to the UK who do not live by "British values or respect British values". This has not gone down to well with the more extremist nationalist who point out what about those there already, should they not be expelled even if they are now British citizens?

Anyway we are way away from my questions which have been answered and thanks to those that took to time to answer them.
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Nationality is indeed a sore subject these days.

And I did get the impression that you were saying that learning about french history was a load of rubbish.

Lots of people feel that their own values and identity are being lost in a race for us all to be the same.

And I do not believe for one minute that we can all  be the same.

All very well, folks saying that they feel european, just how many countries in the EU have problems with the differing tribes within their countries and have some going way back into history.

My idea of tribes includes religious differences, sometimes historically language differences too and sometimes certain groups believe that they are simply superior to others within their country.

Italy, the north /south divide.
Belgium, the french speakers and flamandes.
Even Sweden with the Sami and the rest of Sweden.
Ireland............. !
Britain.......... english, scots, welsh and irish!  And the North South Divide in England.

And in France, I would say that I always had the feeling of a city, campagne divide.

The divisions are there. In general we live with them but not always happily.

Add to that mix, people who move in whose values and customs are very alien to a very basic level of european values , and then expect that their values should be 'valued', and it leads to uneasiness for an awful lot of people, and that is  what we have now.

Babies and small children often scream if a stranger starts talking to them, these things, mechanisms are in built, we are programmed to fear 'strangers'.

The great european nationality, I reckon we actually will have flying pigs before that happens.

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It wasn't just a poll, CT. It was a genuine national debate, inviting ordinary people all over France to raise questions and express their views. I believe it happens a couple of times per generation, as a way of seeing if public opinion has shifted.

Solidarity seems to be important to the French, they want to live in a society where everyone basically shares the same values. To take an example, they would probably not like the idea of there being a whole section of French citizens with French passports to whom 14th July means nothing at all, who don't join in the spirit of the celebrations. I have to say I totally get that. It's part of what binds a society together.
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Quite interestingly, if you didn't see it, there was a documentary series to accompany a couple of vases made by Grayson Perry after the Brexit vote. If you're unaware of them, he made a "Leave" and a "remain" vase (each proportionate in size to the size of the corresponding vote) and asked the Great British Public to send in photos, quotes, personal observations which for them symbolised what "leave" or "remain" actually meant for them.

His main observation once he had received submissions was that, surprisingly, there was a vast amount of submitted material which was absolutely identical yet submitted by people on both sides of the vote.

So, paradoxically, what binds us appears to be what divides us, too. Hey ho.
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Right, to go back to the OP's original question. I have contacted the Consulat General de France in London and here is the answer.

Your Father needs to contact his local Prefecture to start the ball rolling. He will also find everything needed in the link below.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2213

The bad news is there is no age limit for the test in french. The applying person must have a level B1 in french which means he must be able to hold a small conversation (noun, verb, adjective) at the local bakery/butcher shop and, most important, with the "french administration" should he need their services.

There is no mention of having to sit an exam on french history ..... or any other exam for that matter.

At the moment, British Nationals can also hold french nationality (Our two daughters have both passports) and vice-versa.

Please do not listen to what we call "rumeurs de chiottes" and make sure you always speak to an official contact for such queries.
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Eric, every source I have seen says that you do not have to sit a formal language test over 60. A friend got citizenship last year, she did not sit a test, but had, as seems to be standard, an interview with the gendarmes and an interview at the préfecture. I have read lots of reports of the préfecture interviews and most seem to include discussion of the responsibilities of French citizens, key moments in history (mostly around the Revolution), understanding of the implications of la devise, contribution to French life, knowledge of French culture etc. You would need to be at B1 for all this, obviously. There is information on the RIFT site and also a Facebook group for those seeking citizenship.

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https://www.remaininfrance.org/citizenship.html

and from

CONNAISSANCE DE LA LANGUE FRANÇAISE POUR L’ACCÈS À LA NATIONALITÉ FRANÇAISE

les personnes âgées d’au moins 60 ans n’ont pas à produire ce diplôme ou cette attestation.

Toutefois leur niveau de connaissance de la langue française est évalué lors d’un entretien. Les personnes produisant une attestation d’un niveau inférieur au niveau B1 sont également reçues en entretien.
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Oddly, Eric,having followed (and read) your link, it says:

Comment justifier de son Niveau de connaissance de la langue française ?

Vérifié le 14 mai 2018 - Direction de l'information légale et administrative (Premier ministre)

Pour acquérir la nationalité française, vous devez justifier avoir le niveau B1 oral du cadre européen commun de référence pour les langues (CERL) . Il correspond au niveau d'un élève en fin de scolarité obligatoire apte à écouter, prendre part à une conversation et à s'exprimer oralement en continu. Il s'agit de maîtriser le langage nécessaire à la vie quotidienne et aux situations de la vie courante.

It then goes on to list several specific cases, among which the first is "vous êtes agé de plus de 60 ans"

If you click on that, it then says "Votre connaissance du français est évaluée au cours d'un entretien individuel d'assimilation avec un agent de préfecture."

So, much in the same way as an applicant for British nationality needs to present some form of proof that they have acquired a level of English (done through passing an ESOL exam), it appears that people below the age of 60 need to show they've achieved a B1 level of French according to the Common European Framework for languages, whereas the over 60's just have to have an interview in French.

If this were not the case, then I can't see why the link you've provided would differentiate between the over 60's and everyone else? It appears simply to infer that the under 60's must provide formal evidence of achievement of their language level, which the over 60's don't. Of course, they still need to demonstrate this via interview......as you rightly point out. But the "over 60's" thing isn't entirely a rumeur de chiottes.

PS: for any non-French speakers getting antsy, google translate can be your friend, and Eric IS French, so has no need of anyone providing him with a translation.
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EmilyA. The point is to have a french language knowledge equivalent to B1 (and not to sit a formal language test). I must admit having used the word "test" which can bring confusion.

As your friend applied in France, she just had to hold the conversation in french which in itself is THE test (level B1). Anyone applying for french citizenship in the UK, will have to sit the exam (only a few exam centres in the UK) and come out with their B1 level certificate they will then use for their application.

Applying in a Prefecture is slightly different to applying at the Consulat General in London.

The information I gave is what any British Citizen applying for french nationality whilst in the UK would get. Information is given directly from the Consulat General de France in London. You can't get better, unbiased info, can you?
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Thanks for clarifying, Eric.

As far as the OP is concerned, we are sticking with CDS for the moment. We have collected quite a bit of the stuff required for nationality and are confident at B2+, but it seems to me only fair given the current pressure on citizenship applications to allow younger, working people to have their chance first.

I would also encourage people to use their local U3A for language and culture. I have been studying on the French history course (for French people) for three years and have learnt a lot.
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I think with all agree then. The OP's father might not have to show a document proving his B1 level in french but his interview, at the Prefecture, being in french, will require at minima a level B1 in the language to follow the conversation.

It is pointless us asking the old man to calm down and ensure him he will not be thrown out of the country; Only his own family can achieve this with what we understand, a lot of time and patience.
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