Hard Brexit - You WILL need a CDS

[NormanH]

You seem to have missed my post on the first page of this thread that quoted exactly (in French) the same article as you...

I don't see how you justify what you say about not being treated as 3rd party nationals and not needing a CdS given this:

En cas de retrait du Royaume-Uni sans accord, les

ressortissants britanniques qui jouissent du droit à la libre

circulation et à la libre installation dans l'ensemble de l'Union

européenne, ainsi que les membres de leur famille, deviendront des

ressortissants de pays tiers et seront en conséquence en principe soumis

au droit commun, c'est-à-dire à l'obligation de présenter

un visa pour entrer sur le territoire français et de justifier d'un

titre de séjour pour s'y maintenir

Perhaps you translate this differently but I read it as Brits will become 3rd party Nationals and will require a CdS  to stay in France

[cajal]

Further down #1 of the script Norman posted it states......

En outre, en cas de retrait du Royaume-Uni de l'Union européenne sans accord, les ressortissants britanniques séjournant actuellement en France et les membres de leur famille se trouveraient en séjour irrégulier faute de disposer d'un des documents de séjour prévus à l'article L. 311-1 du code de l'entrée et du séjour des étrangers et du droit d'asile.

......which in a nutshell is saying that if a Brit is not in possesion of the appropriate right to residence form of id / permit, in a no agreement exit, then they will be deemed an illegal resident.

It's quite revealing that people's translation of a French document can be influenced by whether they are holders of a resident permit or not.

[EuroTrash]

Are we still arguing about this?

Yes, the text says that in the absence of any new legislation Brits will technically become illegal residents overnight. What else can it say? That is the situation. We will be living in France exercising our right to FoM as EU citizens, we will lose our rights to FoM overnight, therefore overnight we will lose the right to be living here.

Which is exactly why, having recognised the potential chaos of the situation, France has started, with this draft legislation, to think about what needs to be done to avoid all of this happening.

[Chancer]

You are all reading one tiny part of the text, possibly because that is all that has been translated, and you are falling into the trap that for god only knows why they want you to, you are reading those words alone, in isolation and out of context and coming to completely the wrong conclusion, if you could step away one moment from your anxiety and simply apply a bit of common sense and logic even if you cant read and understand French you would realise that you are being wound up.

 

They were saying what would happen if they did not proceed with the legislation, it was part of the pre-amble explaining the need for and justifying the considerable efforts that they are making on our behalf to protect our existing rights and to give us preferential treatment compared to 3rd party nationals.

 

Norman at the very least should understand that if he read the whole legislative text available here:

 

http://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl18-009.html

 

For the rest of you that seem determined to continue to wallow in self misery, just carry on as normal.

[Chancer]

[quote user="cajal"]

It's quite revealing that people's translation of a French document can be influenced by whether they are holders of a resident permit or not.

[/quote]

 

You are correct in your assumption that I have not been panicked into applying for a CDS which will be of absolutely zero benefit to me, however my translation of the text is of the whole article and not just the bit that someone wants to scare people with and seemingly there is no shortage of people willing to lap it up.

 

Read yourself the parts that I quoted in blue, and then preferably read the whole text and then tell me that it is saying anything other than what I said, show me where it says "You WILL need a CDS", show me where it says or suggests (other than through selective editting) that anyone has anything whatsoever to be concerned about.

[alittlebitfrench]

Blôody Hell !!! Bickering Brits. LOL

YOU don't need a CDS !!!

Why ?

Because Brexit ain't happening.

It will ultimately go to a second vote and remain will win hands down.

Now get back to your swimming pools, watching sky TV or clearing up guests that do doo doo's in their bed my lovely British friends

ALBF says 'stop panicking'.

BTW, also learn French. It helps.

[NormanH]

1) I did say that the document is contingency planning.

2) the first condition is,  as the thread title suggests,  that there is a HARD Brexit

3) the second condition is that un traitement plus favorable que celui des

personnes physiques ou morales de pays tiers soient conditionnées à

l'octroi d'un statut équivalent aux personnes physiques ou morales

françaises.

that is to say any more favourable treatment than that offered to 3rd party nationals is dependent on French citizens in the UK getting a similar deal.

4) Does anyone believe that in a country where everybody, its own nationals included, are expected to have ID cards only UK citizens will be exempted?

5) I don't see where the idea of 'having anything to be scared about' or 'scare people' comes from.

This is a simple if tiresome administrative procedure as can be seem from the experiences of the members of this Forum who have been through it.

[Cathar Tours]

I can't see the French or any other EU country giving Brits something different to either citizenship or residency permits, to do so would be a complete breach of their human rights and there would be a queue at both the European Court and the ECHR. Certainly the Germans think this as it has already been discussed. If there is a hard Brexit here then you will be treated like any other immigrant and require a work permit (not many retired Expats here), a residency permit or an EU Blue Card if your working for an employer. There are a few self employed Brits working here and I am not to sure how it will be for them as I have no contact with them.

Mind you watching the news and reading tonight's newspapers it seems much won't happen till 2020 and possibly even beyond that. On the other hand will May and the Tories make it to Christmas? Even if Labour gets to govern things won't move much because as somebody pointed out none of their six criteria have been met.

[Cathar Tours]

Norman - I am in agreement with you. This is clearly something that has been prepared in case there is a hard Brexit and I suspect more EU countries are doing the same. If there is a deal it will be filed in the bin but it is always best to have a plan, plan for the worse and hope for the best as they say.

There is scaremongering going on even at a government level in the UK. A few months ago they were banging on about the NHS stockpiling drugs etc. Apparently the boss of the NHS (Simon somebody) said this week that they were not stockpiling drugs at all.

[KO12]

Right, the stockpiling is being done not by NHS but by the pharmaceutical companies (as was announced by, I think, Hancock), confirmed, for example, by Astra Zeneca: https://www.reuters.com/article/britain-eu-astrazeneca/astrazeneca-halts-uk-investments-due-to-brexit-uncertainties-le-monde-idUSL8N1WV4GD

[YCCMB]

Regrettably, the scaremongering is perpetrated by the mainstream media and spread like wildfire on social media, and within a very short timescale it's gospel.

If you read most of the U.K. press, (especially the red tops, but not exclusively) and many social media posts that link to them, you notice a headline that says, for example "NHS to stockpile medicines" and then read the body of the article which is riddled with conditionals: "could", " may", "might" ... But they've reeled people in with the headline and, before you know it, the old "send 3/4d we're going to a dance" has kicked in.

[Cathar Tours]

Re Astra Zeneca - They carry out R&D in the UK with their biggest two R&D sites being in Cambridge (they work with scientists at the uni) and Alderley Park with a massive IT centre in Macclesfield. What they are stockpiling in the UK is all the stuff they need to continue their RD work. They do manufacture in the UK which is why they are stockpiling drugs, not in the UK but in Europe in case of a hard Brexit. Most of these Bioengineered drugs require very special storage and have a short shelf life which is why UK pharmacies and hospitals have been told not to stockpile them. It's all to do with being delayed in customs in a no deal situation. Other drugs with long shelf lives are not an issue.

Insulin for example has a shelf life of four weeks to three months provided it is refrigerated. Only insulin for animals is made in the UK. So there is no point in stock piling insulin because they will get through customs well within the three months and anyway much is manufactured outside the EU.

So taking information like in the link, turning it around, a few twists here and there and you can instil panic into the British public.

[YCCMB]

Here's a genuine question which perplexes me. Off topic a bit, but anyway. Fingers on buzzers.

Is there a general assumption that, once Brexit has happened, the U.K. will suddenly decide that it's a great idea to throw the rule book out of the window and start producing poor quality everything, just for giggles? In fact, is there a general perception that the UK government will foist upon UK industry/agriculture/manufacturing/services an entirely new set of regulations which are less stringent than those we currently adhere to? And is there a belief that everyone involved is going to want to modify their processes and procedures backwards/downwards just because they're free to do so? Or a believe that there won't be any cost involved in doing so?

Because the idea that overnight products/produce will somehow change and become inferior on either side of the pending Great EU Divide seems to be at the heart of so many things, and it genuinely puzzles me. Yes, I can comprehend without much mental effort that there will be controls, tariffs etc., but companies which have established manufacturing processes, developed products, drugs, whatever..to sell within Europe (if not the world) as a whole, would, it seems to me, have zero interest in suddenly changing everything overnight just because they're free to do so.

The idea of many things being affected overnight, put forward in so very many scare stories, seems hugely far fetched. It's taken 40-odd years of EU membership to arrive where we are. The idea that anything (let alone everything) will somehow miraculously change overnight seems at best bizarre.

I HATE Brexit and all it stands for, but I can still imagine that, if it does eventually come to pass as I fear it will, we'll all wake up the morning after, and even the BJ's, Reese-Moggsand Farages of this world will be looking at one another and saying "is that it?"

At best, what's taken over 40 years to achieve will probably take just as long to fully dismantle, hence my feelings at the outset that it will be my children and grandchildren who reap what we've sown.

A bit like the "year 2000" bug and the damp squib it turned out to be, I can't see the whole Brexit circus being much more in the short to medium term, as far as actual change is concerned. Certainly, what I can't see is airlifts of disenfranchised Brits from all the EU 27. Nor a round-up of their opposite numbers in the UK. The persistent posturing on both sides of the negotiations does little to reassure anyone. It's just nice to see Macron and Merkel chilling together over a beer like they're so solidly positioned in their own countries that they can have a few drinks and a good laugh at May's expense.

[Cathar Tours]

Well the whole thing about leaving the EU, taking back control and not having to obey the European Court of Justice is a load of rollocks if you want to export into the EU.

Everything sold in the EU has to conform to EU standards hence the CE mark. Lets take something I know a little about that's simple, a wheel on a new car. The steel it is made from has to conform to EU standards as does the tyre and the valve. Then the whole thing can get it's CE mark.

If it's discovered that say the valve isn't compliant even when the manufacturer has told the car maker it is then the car maker has to recall the affected cars and replace the wheels.

The next step is for the car maker to get it's money back and for that it goes to the EU Court who if they find that there has been some skulduggery it will find in the car makers favour. It can also ban the import into the EU of all wheels to all car makers etc. from the supplier.

So in short if you want to sell in the EU you must obey their rules and regulations and if you do something dodgy you can be hauled up in front of the European Court of Justice who are responsible for ensuring EU rules and legislation is abided by.

So if a UK company continues to sell to the EU and keeps EU standards which it currently does then there is no problem. It simply would not be in their interest to try and make sub standard cheap parts.

The same with drugs which are randomly tested and approved by the European Medicines Agency. With regards to this you might find the following link of interest

https://www.ema.europa.eu/human-regulatory/overview/public-health-threats/falsified-medicines

It has to be said that some of the scaremongering has been just (on both sides to be fair) that but in amongst that scaremongering have been some truths. For example the "experts" said GBP would devalue against the Euro which it has by quiet a bit, ask people like my dad who gets his pensions paid in the UK but spends in France. Brexiteers will claim this is good for UK exports yet so much of what the UK exports has EU components in it, even UK food where the fertilizer is bought inside the EU. A poor exchange rates might well mean UK goods are cheaper for Euroland to buy but it also makes these components bought in the EU more expensive.

But then all none EU countries have to abide by EU rules if they export into the EU. Ford sell pickup trucks inside the EU and they are often different to those sold in the domestic market because, believe it or not, they are built to a higher and different standard to get their EU certification.

This is why the UK parliament voted and approved putting EU legislation straight into UK legislation.

[EuroTrash]

Who knows, but there have been some alarming comments by TM and others.

One example, I seem to remember talk very early on about not rolling over EU worker rights post Brexit, such as specifically, agency workers' automatic right to holiday pay.

I think it's fair to say that the UK mindset is to favour profit over social considerations, that's a fundamental difference between what the French call the "anglo saxon" model and the EU model. The anglo saxon mindset accepts that the raison d'être of most businesses is to make a profit for shareholders, France at the other extreme believes the purpose of a business should be to provide employment, supply a service that society needs, and support the national economy. Up to a point, EU membership has compelled the UK to improve worker rights over the years, and having contact with the anglo saxon model has up to a point inspired France to reconsider whether it has been holding its economy back too much by being so focused on workers rights. So I think that the UK post Brexit will certainly give less worker protection. Hand in hand with this, I think the gap between rich and poor, which is already far wider in the UK than other EU countries, will grow wider still.

Basically I think the UK is more blatant about regarding trade and wealth as the number one priority, and the EU puts more emphasis on quality of life and protecting the vulnerable members of society. Hence, in some degree, why Brexit, and hence also why the negotiations are not working because the UK can't comprehend that the EU will refuse to abandon its freedoms even though it would clearly be in its economic interest to do so.

IMHO.

[YCCMB]

Cathar Tours said

So if a UK company continues to sell to the EU and keeps EU standards which it currently does then there is no problem. It simply would not be in their interest to try and make sub standard cheap parts.

And that, in a nutshell, was exactly my point. And it applies both ways.

I remember taking my car for its first CT in France. This was many moons ago, and although the test itself has evolved, the principal remains the same: in France, it's every 2 years, in the UK it's yearly. The guy at the CT centre expressed some curiosity:

Him "Do you have this in England?"

Me "Oh yes...it's exactly the same, except in England you have to get it done every year"

Him (smugly) " Ah, but you're part of the EU, so you should do what we do and get it done every TWO years!"

Me: "How is that better?"

Him .............silence.

[mazandcol]

I'm with eurotrash - what will most likely suffer is the protection of workers and any social conscience currently provided by the EU. Well said eurotrash.

The record of UK over the last few decades shows how socially-minded politicians and businesses are in the UK. Profit is everything and it seems like the huge differentials are actually admired and held up as some sort of economic success.

[EuroTrash]

On the other hand, the UK MoT used to pass cars with tyres with different tread pattens on the same axle without blinking. In France you can't get a garage to fit non-matching tyres on the same axle, they say it's a safety issue, which it is but nobody ever bothered about it in the UK.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Cathar Tours"] So taking information like in the link, turning it around, a few twists here and there and you can instil panic into the British public.[/quote]

So you knew exactly what you were doing when you created the thread then!

[EuroTrash]

Coming back to YCCMB's question, you can probably sum it up by saying that left to its own devices the UK will push the gig economy further and further, whilst the EU will do all it can to limit it. Whether that's good or bad, depends on whether or not you aspire to being a clickworker or an uber driver.

[Cathar Tours]

ET - I totally agree with your comment about "profit over social considerations".

This is something that annoys me about Labour as well in that Corbyn said something along the lines of protecting workers and their rights which the EU has always done is the most important to him. Saying seems however the furthest he will go where as I would have expected him to be a pro remain person. Seems strange that people are being accused by some of being the opposite to what they are i.e. May is called a remainer when she is trying to get a good deal and Corbyn is being labelled as a Brexiteer,

[EuroTrash]

I admit I am disappointed in Corbyn too, for what he hasn't done.

[Cathar Tours]

Chancer - No I wasn't, your talking rubbish. Read Normans post(s) he explains it very well. This is the route the French will go down if there is a no deal Brexit. Actually the document clears up a lot of things to do with they could do this and they could do that. Now you can see it in black and white. My interest in this is personal because it affects my father.

[EuroTrash]

"This is the route the French will go down if there is a no deal Brexit."

Well, we don't know the route the French will go down if there is a no deal Brexit. The text sets out the starting point, ie what will happen if France doesn't address the issues. The destination ,and how to get there, has yet to be hacked out, but at least we know that France intends to map out a route..

[andyh4]

Betty what will change?

I agree with others that workers rights are at risk, but in addition, I see things like food safety standards going down the plug hole.

If the UK had a trade deal with the US, then it is clear they want to impose their (inferior IMO) standards, and if those are accepted, then expect UK farmers to want the same (unless they export to the EU).