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Hard Brexit - You WILL need a CDS


Cathar Tours
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Not going to make a long comment because its all in this link.

http://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl18-009.html

This is a draft emergency legislation with regards to a no deal Brexit which looks more likely than ever now.

There is a big preamble as to what Brexit is and where the EU now stand in the negotiations and is a bit boring.

The first bit of the legislation gets straight to the core of the matter and says (Google translation but read the French one if you can)

"Moreover, in case of withdrawal from the United Kingdom of the European Union without agreement, British nationals currently residing in France and their family members would be staying illegally for lack of one of the residence documents provided for in Article L. 311-1 of the Code of Entry and Stay of Foreigners and the Right of Asylum. entry and residence of foreigners and the right of asylum)."

This bit also talks about visitors permits which may effect second home owners depending how long you stay in France.

Section 5 which is important for my father and probably many retirees of UK state pension age deals with the "social" side which appears to indicate that the use of S1's will stop.

Naturally I would welcome any corrections to the above if I have misunderstood its contents.

Merkle has made a big speech about preparing for a no deal as well. Seems Ford is on the ball with this as I am right at the end of getting my Blue Card which should arrive in the next six weeks.
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Our department (Manche) is so overwhelmed by Brits wanting a CdS that they have resorted to appointments on a day they are usually shut - just for Brits. We went to the Prefecture on 25th September (no appointment as per their website...and also what we had been told by them in an earlier email).

In French man on counter:  "From 1st September we have changed our arrangements" - but I will make you an appointment. None left before Christmas and none to the end of June 2019." So: our appointment is on 25th September 2019 and I have an email confirming that. He also said "you don't and won't need a CdS" the law will not change in France"!

No-one updates the staff so no fault of theirs.

Other departments around us do have appointments for this year.

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I think you're seeing it out of context, which is how it's been quoted today in the UK press.

The point of this legislation, which France drafted earlier this month, is to put the French government in a position to quickly pass legislation to solve these issues.

The scenario outlined in the text is simply setting out what the default position will be in a no deal scenario if France doesn't take unilateral action. There's nothing new here. France has simply listed what it sees as the chief areas for concern, which are already known to anyone who knows about treaties. What's new is that France is starting to make preparations for resolving them quickly should the need arise. "Dans ce contexte, la présente habilitation, qui comporte quatre articles, a pour objectif de permettre aux autorités françaises de réagir à toutes les éventualités liées au retrait du Royaume-Uni, en adoptant par ordonnance les mesures dans le champ de compétence des États membres qui relèvent du domaine de la loi."
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I think what you should take away from it is that France recognises the problems that no deal would create; it recognises that they need solutions; and it is trying to plan ahead so that it will be in a position to legislate for those solutions rapidly. It hasn't yet said how it intends to deal with these issues, but I think the fact it's starting to prepare is positive.

Merkel said much the same. I guess each EU country is going to have to follow suit and start preparing its no deal planning. It's what the UK should be doing too.
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This is the text in French.

1° le droit d'entrée et le droit de

séjour en France des ressortissants britanniques

En cas de retrait du Royaume-Uni sans accord, les

ressortissants britanniques qui jouissent du droit à la libre

circulation et à la libre installation dans l'ensemble de l'Union

européenne, ainsi que les membres de leur famille, deviendront des

ressortissants de pays tiers et seront en conséquence en principe soumis

au droit commun, c'est-à-dire à l'obligation de présenter

un visa pour entrer sur le territoire français et de justifier d'un

titre de séjour pour s'y maintenir. En droit national, le code de

l'entrée et du séjour des étrangers et du droit d'asile

prévoit l'obligation, sous réserve des engagements internationaux

de la France, pour tout étranger souhaitant entrer en France en vue d'y

séjourner pour une durée supérieure à trois mois de

solliciter auprès des autorités diplomatiques et consulaires

françaises un visa de long séjour (article L. 211-2-1

du code de l'entrée et du séjour des étrangers et du droit

d'asile). En cas de sortie sans accord, les Britanniques souhaitant entrer en

France pour y séjourner pour une durée supérieure à

trois mois seraient donc soumis à cette exigence. En outre, en cas de

retrait du Royaume-Uni de l'Union européenne sans accord, les

ressortissants britanniques séjournant actuellement en France et les

membres de leur famille se trouveraient en séjour irrégulier

faute de disposer d'un des documents de séjour prévus à

l'article L. 311-1 du code de l'entrée et du séjour des

étrangers et du droit d'asile.

2° l'emploi des ressortissants britanniques

exerçant légalement à la date du retrait une

activité professionnelle salariée en France.

En cas de retrait sans accord, les ressortissants britanniques

sous contrat de travail de droit français avec un employeur en France

pourraient se voir exiger un titre valant autorisation de travail en France,

comme le prévoit la réglementation sur l'emploi des

étrangers dans le code du travail. Sans la possession d'un tel

document, l'employeur pourrait voir sa responsabilité pénale

engagée au titre de l'emploi d'étrangers non autorisés

à travailler, qui constitue une infraction au titre de

l'article L. 8251-1 du code du travail.

3° l'exercice, par une personne physique ou morale

exerçant légalement en France à la date du retrait,

d'une activité ou d'une profession dont l'accès ou l'exercice

sont subordonnés au respect de conditions.

Un retrait britannique sans accord aurait des

conséquences pour l'exercice de certaines professions, notamment celles

de médecin, de pharmacien ou de débitant de tabac, qui est soumis

à la condition de détenir la nationalité d'un États

membres de l'Union européenne ou d'un État partie à

l'Espace économique européen. Cette condition de

nationalité pourrait être opposée aux ressortissants

britanniques exerçant ces professions en France.

Il aurait également des conséquences pour les

structures d'exercice des activités soumises à un statut

législatif ou réglementaire, ou dont le titre est

protégé. Ce point concerne notamment la composition du

capital des sociétés d'exercice et des sociétés

holdings (SPFPL), celui-ci pouvant être détenu, directement ou

indirectement, par des professionnels établis au sein d'un autre

État membre de l'Union européenne, ainsi que la forme sociale

choisie pour l'exercice en groupe, la réglementation française

autorisant pour certaines professions l'exercice en France au sein d'une

succursale d'une société dont le siège est situé

dans un autre État membre.

4° les règles applicables aux agents

titulaires et stagiaires de la fonction publique de nationalité

britannique

La loi n° 83-634 du 13 juillet 1983

portant droits et obligations des fonctionnaires, dite « loi Le

Pors », prévoit que ne peuvent avoir la qualité de

fonctionnaire que les ressortissants de nationalité française

(article 5) ou, sous certaines conditions, les ressortissants des

États membres de l'Union européenne ou d'un autre

État partie à l'accord sur l'Espace économique

européen autres que la France (article 5 bis).

Par voie de conséquence, lorsque le Royaume-Uni

deviendra un État tiers ses ressortissants ne pourront plus

prétendre à la qualité de fonctionnaire au sens de la loi

française.

Il est donc nécessaire d'adopter une disposition

législative pour régir la situation des agents titulaires et

stagiaires de la fonction publique de nationalité britannique.

5° l'application aux ressortissants britanniques qui

résident légalement en France à la date du retrait de la

législation relative aux droits sociaux et aux prestations sociales

En cas de retrait du Royaume-Uni sans accord, les

règles de coordination de sécurité sociale fixées

dans le règlement 883/04 du Parlement européen et du Conseil, du

29 avril 2004, sur la coordination des systèmes de

sécurité sociale et son règlement d'application 987/09 ne

s'appliqueront plus entre le Royaume-Uni et les États membres, dont

la France. Le retrait aura donc des conséquences pour l'ouverture et la

détermination des droits sociaux des ressortissants britanniques ainsi

que de leurs ayants droits, de même que pour la détermination de

leur éligibilité aux minima sociaux. Des adaptations

législatives sont nécessaires pour en tirer les

conséquences. Celles-ci pourront aussi prévoir les

modalités de contribution des ressortissants britanniques ainsi que de

leurs ayants droits à certaines prestations dont la prise en charge ne

fera plus l'objet de compensations financières par les régimes

sociaux britanniques
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Quite.

I rather feel that the suggestion that resident Brits in France will all be arrested on 1st April and escorted to the first available ferry ...... is complete & utter nonsense.

Equally that healthcare rights will ‘evaporate’ is, to be honest, scaremongering.

Of course, the Government has made a complete and utter balls of the Brexit process (doubt that anybody, no matter their politcal persusion would deny that), but the idea that Armageddon is going to take place in less than 6 months is rubbish.

I just worry about the complete arrogance of HM Govt. You want to join a Club (and they want you), then you have some negotiating levers.

You want to leave? Well OK, but foxtrot oscar & don’t expect any freebies from us.

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No fundamental disagreement from me. Just think it's a shame that, as Ive said before, the UK has not only been clear about allowing existing long term EU residents living in the UK to stay and continue live much as before, it's a!ready put in p!ace the mechanisms for this to happen.

I may well be in a minority of one, but I do think it would have been quite easy for each of the EU 27 to reciprocate in kind, just as they currently do for a significant number of non -EU countries already.

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Betty - I heard somebody say (on the TV, from the EU) that the UK had agreed within the deal currently under negotiation all of this but with regards to EU nationals in the UK has not put anything into law.

This confuses me somewhat because logically why should they at this stage? As Barnier, who I agree with most of the time, says "it's not agreed till it's all agreed" so all of this would apply once a deal is done and becomes law. What's the point of putting it into law when technically, following Barniers words, there is currently no agreement?

I think what the French and Germans are doing is just showing the UK the reality of what would happen if there is no deal. That said I always assumed that once the UK had left EU citizens would be treated the same as none EU citizens in whatever country including the UK. I mean the UK can't get it right with none EU immigrants so to create another system running in parallel to deal with EU immigrants will just add to the current mess and make it more complicated.
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Well, EU nationals can apply to get the necessary documentation to remain in the UK after Brexit via an app, which is already up and running. Seems pretty prepared and organised to me. That's for people who have been here for five years, or will have been come Brexit.

Compared to what those of you living in France or other EU countries are saying is happening where you are it's light years ahead.

All this "showing the UK what will happen" stuff? C'mon ..It's a bit petty thou gh. There are aspects of these "negotiations" which, to my eyes, do smack of certain EU countries being as bloody minded as possible over the minutiae that they, as individual nations, can control. And don't give me the "No, they're sticking to EU law, it's not up to them to change the rules for the UK, the UK should realise that the EU can't make an exception for them" argument.

Basically, already, certain countries are indicating their plans for dealing with aspects such as this.....and those plans are being individually formulated. This has nothing to do with the EU staying true to its united practices, policies and laws.
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The text that's suddenly being bandied about the UK media is a piece of internal French legislation. It wasn't written for British consumption. It was produced by the French government as part of doing its job. So to say it was written to show the UK what will happen, is paranoid in the extreme. Plus, the future of British citizens is not the main thrust of this document. It covers all the key areas for concern - trade, transport, food safety, animal health etc etc etc.

Apart from anything else, blaming France for setting out the facts as they are known is exactly like blaming the weatherman for delivering a storm and flood warning.

If you don't want to know about it, nobody is forcing you to listen.

Just to add, the only reason Brits living in France are panicking is because they want to. There has been no instruction to panic. France has said quite clearly that we don't need to do anything at all, just yet.

All IMHO, of course.
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Betty wrote

Compared to what those of you living in France or other EU countries ……………….

In most other EU countries (all except Ireland and France AFAIK) there is no issue. You have to be registered to live there - as a foreigner and as a national.

As to how well the UK system is working - well let's wait before passing judgement. It sounds good in principle - like the joined up NHS systems; like the new Universal credit payments system; like...………… Unfortunately there are too many likes.

And those systems were years in the planning, this app has been put together in months. If it works then maybe a lesson in over-planning new systems .
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EuroTrash - People will read the bits that concern them and skip what they believe do not. If your an animal owner then you might want to read the bit about animals for instance, if your not then you won't bother.

Betty - I read about the app, but is this not the same as those here applying for a CDS. At present there is absolutely no legal requirement for them to do so although in the case of France I thought I read somewhere that you may need one if your employed there?

What I am saying is there is nothing in UK law that says after Brexit you can register and stay in the UK even though this app system is being trialed. Currently all the UK have said is that they can stay but saying and making it law are two different things. If the UK gets a deal then as part of the already agreed parts it will automatically be written into UK law.

How individual EU countries deal with none EU immigrants is up to them and each will have different rules, laws etc. This is what has lead to issues within the EU (nothing to do with the UK) in that there is no common EU immigration policy, law or whatever so everyone is doing their own thing. It is about time the EU as a block had a common none EU immigration policy.

What is important to understand is that without a deal UK citizens will be treated in the same way as any other none EU citizen in a country and will have to apply for whatever form of registration that country requires.

I seem to remember that in a no deal situation some countries have said they will copy whatever the UK does, some have said everything will stay the same but two countries, with possibly the biggest number of Expats up until this document was released which were France and Spain said they had not decided.
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Cathar Tours wrote:

Betty - I read about the app, but is this not the same as those here applying for a CDS. At present there is absolutely no legal requirement for them to do so although in the case of France I thought I read somewhere that you may need one if your employed there.

I'm confused. How are the two any different. If I understand your comment correctly.... There's currently (as Eurotrash has said) no legal requirement for anyone, anywhere to do anything.

Andy: I'd say, given the rabid fervour with which the media jumps on every Brexit hiccup, cockup and faux pas, that if the app wasn't working we would, most definitely, have heard about it. Frequently. In every news bulletin. But maybe they're just saving it for a slow news day? Before it was trialled, there were some concerns and reports that it wouldn't work on iPhones (definitely a cockup, but one that was a problem with Apple: it worked on Android) but seemingly they must've fixed it as the following month they went ahead with trials...
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I agree that this document is simply contingency planning.
1) I have always reckoned that after Brexit British nationals here will require some sort of CdS as we always  had to have pre 2002 (I think that was the date)

Since many people have come  to live in France since that date the idea is new to them.
2) France has had in place a system for applying for a CdS  for both EU and Non-EU nationals for as long as I can remember so there is nothing to put in place there unlike in the UK which has never had such a system.
3) Where there is the most room for disagreement is whether there is any point in applying now  for a CdS given that one issued now will be one for members of a EU state and that status will change after Brexit.

My bet is that those of us who hold one will be offered a simple transfer when our status changes but of course that is only based on intuition I have absolutely no evidence of it

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Betty - Sorry I didn't express myself properly and may have not understood you previous comment properly. What you say is indeed correct and that's the point the EU are making, there is currently no law that says as an EU citizen you must apply for any form of residency in the UK.

I guess this may be a result of that stupid man who said something along the lines of it didn't matter what you sign today you can rip it up tomorrow. So the EU wants a backstop on a backstop and something in law that says once you have used this app in the UK your there for ever and your rights are protected. Mind you even laws can be revoked.
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"My bet is that those of us who hold one will be offered a simple transfer when our status changes but of course that is only based on intuition I have absolutely no evidence of it"

That seems most probable to me too. Though I don't see how one can reasonably hope to find evidence of a decision that hasn't been made yet.

My bet would be for France to instruct Brits who haven't got a cds to apply for whatever new document they decide on within X months following Brexit, and Brits who do have a cds either to exchange it by a certain deadline or when it expires.

I'm hoping that there will be an online process for applying for the new document, similar to eg registering with CAF where you have to provide birth certificate/passport/healthcare attestation/avis d'imposition, all done very easily online and you get your attestation d'affiliation by email a few days later. I don't see why they wouldn't do this, since so many state services are being dematerialised.

I would however be surprised if France dropped its "legal residence" requirement simply to mirror the UK. Let's face it the reason the UK has dropped this is because they've made it too complicated to enforce. In France it's dead simple to check whether a person has healthcare in place or not and whether their avis shows sufficient income or not.

CT, I appreciate that people are looking for what they want to find, but if all they're interested in is what will happen to early retirees then this document is of no interest to them, it's not telling them anything new. France, and Germany, are far more concerned over more complicated and sensitive issues like, how will the legislate to deal with Brits who have jobs in France/Germany which under national law can only be held by EU citizens? They need for example to ensure that British teachers will legally be able to go in and teach their classes the day after Brexit, otherwise schools will be in chaos. They need to ensure continuity for all the business processes that risk being stopped dead in their tracks by a no-deal Brexit. On the grand scale of things, individual British retirees are not a top priority because they can be left to go on living their lives as normal until the government has finished fire-fighting the more urgent issues, a month or two this way or that will make no difference in the end.

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Eurotrash: Having just tried to sort CdS out (see earlier post): we had to provide 5 years worth of tax avis and 5 years of utility bills plus birth, marriage certs, health care proof, passport copies and up-to-date photographs. When one collects (yes in person) the CdS you have to provide finger prints. This would be difficult to do online.  All this even though we had had a CdS in 2003.

The files we took were quite thick and they wanted to see the originals too (seemingly to make sure we had copied them correctly...).
The files I got ready are in our small safe and will just have one later year added and the earliest year removed (plus new photos) for our appointment next September.
It would seem better to us if the local Maire could approve the file of documents.
If only we had pushed for renewing our 2003 CdS - isn't hindsight wonderful.

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I take your point about the fingerprints hereford, I guess that will need a personal appointment, but sending 5 years' worth of avis and attestations is really not harder than sending 1 year's. For French documents you don't even have to scan them, just download them from one website and upload the pdf and voila, bob est ton oncle and no need to invest in a safe to put anything in - think of the trees you can save. The only documents that need scanning are birth certificate and passport, maybe marriage certificate etc, and there's only one each of them.

Of course it will need a shift in mindset but if CAF can do it and the tax office can do it, why not the préfecture. After all they already have ANTS which is underpinned by a joined-up admin system that apparently identifies residents from their sécu number, so that definitely seems to be the way things are heading. I live in hopes.
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Taking it a step further - the admin computer probably already has all the info it needs to determine whether or not you have met the residence conditions. Maybe it'll be like the URSSAF website where if you need an attestation, you just click a button to request it and the attestation is created automatically.

Maybe that is too much to hope for. But I do think that the sharing of information between the impots and CPAM and URSSAF, which has been put in place the PUMA scheme, may have opened up more possibilities for automatic processing.
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Perhaps the benefit in the UK is that tax and NI are collected jointly through the PAYE system and all you need is NI number which you would be required to hold to get paid. Thing seem to be quite different in France on that score i.e. until recently there was no PAYE system.

Hereford - My fathers fingerprints were take when he went for his meeting and handed over the documents. Printed copies of my fathers tax returns from the internet were accepted without question. He only gave them his last bank statement but he did have a letter from the mayors office that said he had been resident for over 15 years which might have helped.

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"Perhaps the benefit in the UK is that tax and NI are collected jointly through the PAYE system and all you need is NI number which you would be required to hold to get paid."

Hmm. Works for employees, up to a point, but leaves a very big gap for non-working family members or the self employed to fall down.

As I recall a lot of money was spent on developing an NHS information system, but it didn't work and eventually the plug was pulled and the investment written off.
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At the moment in l'Hérault ( and previously for a while in l'Ariège) the only thing you can do online is try to book a rendez-vous to present the documents in person, (in fact it is the only way to get an appointment) but in Béziers at any rate there are never any available slots.

If you are near a Préfecture go and have a look at the queue of desperate people of all nationalities  waiting for hours in long lines...

I would love to see this simplified but I doubt it will be soon.[:(]

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In Carcassonne they had two desks and a ticket system. Only two people in front of us and we were there less than an hour. I do take your point in that some (not all) Brits seem to think it's just them when in fact there are loads of different non EU people applying for CDS's from all over the world not to mention those that need to renew their CDS's. Isn't Bezier FN, I wonder if it is if that makes a difference?
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Sounds like most of you have been duped by an article written in English that cynically pulled one small paragraph written in the draft legislation and completey misrepresented it, yes the words were there but context is everything.

 

If you cannot read or understand French then I have some sympathy with you but loads who can have chosen instead to panic and indulge even more in wallowing in despair.

 

The legislation is the most positive thing that has happened to date and should be celebrated instead of being used to scare people for absolutely no reason.

 

It sets out what France will do in the unlikely (in my mind, you may differ) but possible event of a no deal, it explains why it has to prepare now by drafting the legislation, if it dis nothing the following would happen in the event of a no deal.............................

 

The following being the bit that was translated and presented as what will happen when it could not be further from the truth.

 

Here is just a few small excerpts which should be of interest to people on this forum, the truth from the horses mouth and not misrepresentation, dont read it if you prefer to wallow in despair.

 

Le Gouvernement est très attentif à la situation et aux droits des ressortissants français établis au Royaume-Uni. Le Gouvernement prendra les mesures appropriées relatives à la situation des ressortissants britanniques en France. Il tiendra compte du statut accordé par le Royaume-Uni à nos ressortissants sur son territoire.

 

Afin de tirer les conséquences d'un retrait du Royaume-Uni de l'Union européenne sans accord conclu conformément à l'article 50 du traité sur l'Union européenne, notamment en adaptant la législation de droit commun pour traiter les situations en cours et en prévoyant, le cas échéant, des dérogations, le Gouvernement est autorisé, dans les conditions prévues à l'article 38 de la Constitution, à prendre par ordonnance, dans un délai de douze mois à compter de la publication de la présente loi, les mesures relevant du domaine de la loi qui sont nécessaires en raison de ce retrait, en matière :

 

1° de droit d'entrée et de séjour des ressortissants britanniques en France ;

2° d'emploi des ressortissants britanniques exerçant légalement à la date du retrait du Royaume-Uni de l'Union européenne une activité professionnelle salariée en France ;

3° d'exercice, par une personne physique ou morale exerçant légalement à la date du retrait du Royaume-Uni de l'Union européenne, d'une activité ou d'une profession dont l'accès ou l'exercice sont subordonnés au respect de conditions ;

4° de règles applicables à la situation des agents titulaires et stagiaires de la fonction publique de nationalité britannique ;

5° d'application aux ressortissants britanniques résidant légalement en France à la date du retrait du Royaume-Uni de l'Union européenne de la législation relative aux droits sociaux et aux prestations sociales ;

6° de contrôle sur les marchandises et passagers à destination et en provenance du Royaume-Uni et de contrôle vétérinaire et phytosanitaire à l'importation en provenance du Royaume-Uni ;

7° de réalisation d'opérations de transport routier de marchandises ou de personnes sur le territoire national français, y compris en transit, par des personnes établies au Royaume-Uni.

 

Dans les conditions du premier alinéa, le Gouvernement est également habilité à prendre toute autre mesure nécessaire au traitement de la situation des ressortissants britanniques résidant en France ou y exerçant une activité ainsi que des personnes morales établies au Royaume-Uni et exerçant une activité en France.

 

Les ordonnances prévues au présent article peuvent prévoir que les mesures accordant aux ressortissants britanniques ou aux personnes morales établies au Royaume-Uni un traitement plus favorable que celui des ressortissants de pays tiers ou de personnes morales établies dans des pays tiers cesseront de produire effet si le Royaume-Uni n'accorde pas un traitement équivalent à une date fixée par décret.

 

Le premier article comporte également une disposition permettant d'adopter par ordonnance toute autre disposition qui serait nécessaire pour traiter la situation des ressortissants britanniques résidant en France ou y exerçant une activité ainsi que des personnes morales établies au Royaume-Uni et exerçant une activité en France.

 

Enfin, il précise que les ordonnances pourront prévoir que les mesures qui accordent aux personnes physiques ou morales britanniques un traitement plus favorable que celui des personnes physiques ou morales de pays tiers soient conditionnées à l'octroi d'un statut équivalent aux personnes physiques ou morales françaises.

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And by the way, nowhere does it say that you will need a carte de séjour as of next April even in the event of a no deal so the thread title is yet more false news and fear contagion.

A document may well be required in the fullness of time and if so it will definitely not be a carte de séjour as currently required by 3rd party nationals because the whole thrust of the legislation that UK citizens will not under any circumstances be treated as 3rd party nationals.

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