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French Gov't Order of Feb 6 re Hard Brexit


nomoss
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^^^ this. Exactly.

It's a sad fact, but knowing a language is often berated by those who don't, as if those who do have somehow done it to spite them. It requires hard work and dedication, and it isn't always given the credit it deserves. We are willing to pay a plumber, an electrician, a builder for their hard-earned and hard-learned skills, but often with language we expect someone who speaks another language to perform miracles. And if we are lucky, it will sometimes come along with "I'll buy you a drink" or "I'll treat you to lunch". No thanks, I'll set my rates for my work, and if you want me to work for you I'll tell you what those rates are. Try "I'll buy you a drink" next time you get a plumber in and see how far it gets you.

Judith's point is also valid. Maybe you'll understand all the words, but will that help you understand the real sense? I can read stuff almost every day in English that might as well be in Serbo-Croat for all the sense it makes. Legal texts in paricular are not written so that Joe Public will be able to just read them and crack on. Would that they were.

Meanwhile in Brexit mode, the proliferation of rumours masquerading as information, and proposals masquerading as hard fact aren't really helping anyone. If at the end of next month it all falls of the much-vaunted cliff, there will NOT be a pogrom. It's the 21st century. Although sometimes I wonder.
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[quote user=" YCCMB"]^^^ this. Exactly.

It's a sad fact, but knowing a language is often berated by those who don't, as if those who do have somehow done it to spite them. It requires hard work and dedication, and it isn't always given the credit it deserves. We are willing to pay a plumber, an electrician, a builder for their hard-earned and hard-learned skills, but often with language we expect someone who speaks another language to perform miracles. And if we are lucky, it will sometimes come along with "I'll buy you a drink" or "I'll treat you to lunch". No thanks, I'll set my rates for my work, and if you want me to work for you I'll tell you what those rates are. Try "I'll buy you a drink" next time you get a plumber in and see how far it gets you.

Judith's point is also valid. Maybe you'll understand all the words, but will that help you understand the real sense? I can read stuff almost every day in English that might as well be in Serbo-Croat for all the sense it makes. Legal texts in paricular are not written so that Joe Public will be able to just read them and crack on. Would that they were.

Meanwhile in Brexit mode, the proliferation of rumours masquerading as information, and proposals masquerading as hard fact aren't really helping anyone. If at the end of next month it all falls of the much-vaunted cliff, there will NOT be a pogrom. It's the 21st century. Although sometimes I wonder.[/quote]

I'm with you there Betty. I'm no longer Mr NiceGuy.

Especially after having a poder for the purchase by relatives of a house here.

What began as simply signing the Acte in their absence begat a long list of problems with boundaries, easements, and multiple and repeated errors in the Notaire's drafts, which continued after the purchase with a long list of requests to find and oversee builders and suppliers. At least I now know the roads between here, their new house, their Mairie, and the Notaire's two offices very well.

After over a year of this I finally cried "Enough" in a rather curt email.

My later apology for being so abrupt was met with the response "But we only asked you to make a couple of 'phone calls".

NEVER again!!

Our son aptly remarked "You can choose your friends, but you can't choose your relatives".

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Translation is something quite different to understanding what is said in a foreign language. When you live in a second language you quite quickly stop translating everything that you hear into your first language, your brain simply understands what you heard.

Translating legal and technical texts is quite different to translating everyday language because you cannot just repeat what was written or spoken in one language using the phrases and syntax of the other.
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Yep.

Legal translators typically charge around 15 cents per word. So a professional translation of the entire text would cost many hundreds of euros. Which is fair because to do it properly would take days of work. Most translators reckon on a rate of around 3,000 words per day.

OK, you might say just a summary will do - that would take even longer because to do it properly you have to read it all first, and then work out how to summarise it...
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"will definitely be between €200 and €340"

Another article in the Local states that the French Ministry of Interior has said "this information is false". They have not yet made an announcement of the cost of the carte de séjour in the case of no deal.  "Wehave to wait for the official government announcement. It should not take long".

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Another point - french legalese is probably different from english legalese. Because of the different origins of the 2 legal systems.
I've scanned parts of the french document to get a general idea, but as my french GP once said to me (in english) "wait and see".
Which we're having to do here in the UK too.

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The reason I quoted the text in French rather than just giving a link was that I  wished to highlight details that had been glossed over in the 'Correction'

As I have said before another reason for consulting an original is that one would need to quote that if required to a French official rather than relying on articles in Anglophone magazines or a Facebook page.

Imagine a parallel situation where an immigrant to the UK was referring to an article in a magazine or Facebook page in a foreign language to justify their case.

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The red herring about the cost of a carte de séjour in the looney Local shows again the perils of trusting the anglophone press that doesn't refer back to official sources but relies on a sort of 'bloke I met in the pub told that'  anecdotal inaccuracy.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2710

shows that the cost at present of  a carte de séjour for retired non-EU citizen is 19€

That doesn't mean that it will be the same for British citizens post-Brexit, but it makes one wonder why that official figure wasn't quoted, and the French government source not referred to.

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I thought it was more like a Daily Mail article, say something outlandish then correct it further down the page.

After asking the ministry to confirm the price of €269 a spokesperson said: "The cost for residence cards for the British in the case of a no deal has not yet been the subject of an official announcement.

"This information is false."

The spokesperson added: "I cannot confirm anything right now. We have to wait for the official government announcement. It should not take long."

I read this as we don't know but at a guess it might be around the 260 Euros mark. The ministry have said the figure is false because they haven't said anything which in government talk means it might be or it might not be. Very Yes Minister.

It should, if I have translated things correctly in the previous links be zero based on it all being reciprocal and that the UK has dropped it's £60 or whatever charge. But then on the other hand once the UK becomes a third country like all the other none EU countries they might get into trouble if they don't treat UK citizens the same s those because it could be deemed as being unfair and possibly racist in some cases (African countries). I could see the possibility of a case in the ECHR on that one.

I don't think these newspapers/websites are the only ones that get things different because based on the links given in the recent past to French government websites with regards to proposed and now actual law there are differences and even now there are things that are TBA's (for example the cost).

Even the EU keeps changing its mind. One day you will need a visa then a month later you won't (not to be confused with the travel registration thing for checking who has arrived and departed the EU).

So at the end of the day what exactly is the law if it is incomplete? That is why it is still full of uncertainty and people worry.

You have to rely on others like these journals if your language skills are simply not good enough because this law relates all over the place to other French laws which you have to stop and read then continue.

By the way The Local is an EU wide journal, we have it in Germany (just replace the .fr with .de and for Spain .es etc.). There is a piece in the Spanish version about S1 healthcare including and interview with the British Embassy there.
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Insisting on putting a figure on everything before the figure is known, seems to be a British thing. It's like the "Brexit bill" - how many times has the EU said that no figure has been calculated yet and can't be until Brexit happens, what has been agreed is the method to be used. Yet the British media keeps quoting this figure and that figure, and if asked for comment the EU patiently reminds them that the figure hasn't been calculated yet.
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CT WROTE:

But then on the other hand once the UK becomes a third country like all the other none EU countries they might get into trouble if they don't treat UK citizens the same s those because it could be deemed as being unfair and possibly racist in some cases (African countries). I could see the possibility of a case in the ECHR on that one.

I'm just going to pick you up on this. You are obviously unaware that, even now, all third country (non EU) arrangements for visas are not the same. There is no prejudice, discrimination or risk of legal action likely, because many precedents exist. None are specific to France, because France is in Schengen, but I think you'll find some 43 countries have currently visa-free entry into France. Of course, this includes the other EU member states, but also countries as diverse as Israel, Japan, Paraguay and South Korea. I'd like to see you make a case for racism out of that little lot.

Sometimes, it is very worthwhile remembering that the world and international relations don't begin and end with the U.K. and the EU.
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CT - you've been reassured that your father will be treated fairly because the UK and France have a totally separate, floating above, health treaty agreement;  this will continue after Brexit.

For those who have moaned about the UK using exPats as 'bargaining chips' etc etc remember this;   the UK has guaranteed continuing rights to all eu citizens already resident in the UK - no change.

However, the eu, it appears, is making life difficult for UK exPats - NOT the UK.

Here's a link some might find of interest.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/10/brussels-refusing-guarantee-healthcare-expats-no-deal-brexit/

Thankfully the UK and France already have separate, existing agreement - but doesn't seem that the eu is being helpful for our fellow exPats resident in other eu countries does it ?

I'm just sitting tight;  France is a civilised country and if we're all here, paying our taxes, etc - we'll be fine.

CT - on a separate note please reassure your father he has nothing to worry about;  and please don't misunderstand me, but is he of an age to start becoming a bit confused about things, and maybe too obsessed about one situation....?

Chessie

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YCCMB - Visa free entry and the right of residence are two totally different things.

It's actually 61 countries.

You will still be obliged in the near future to register for ETIAS even if your from a country which does not require visas which will monitor your entering and leaving the EU. The "good old days" of saying it would be difficult for an EU country to see when exactly you arrived and where will soon be well gone. It won't be just flights but ferries and of course Euro Tunnel.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/etias/

UK citizens will have the right to enter the EU without a visa, well that's the last time I heard, where as before they said they would need one. Now it appears UK citizens can stay 90 days out of every 180 even for business. If you want to stay longer you need to become a resident and have whatever is required for each individual EU country.
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CT SAID: YCCMB - Visa free entry and the right of residence are two totally different things

Something of which I am fully aware. Really. You (not i) made a totally erroneous comment about how you speculated things would be with regard to visas. I corrected you. I may have miscounted the number of countries listed to the official schengen visa website but as you were unaware of this fact until I told you, I'm just glad I prompted you to fact-check what you were suggesting.
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Late as ever - it's Sunday, busy at church and then Sunday lunch ...

"With respect Judith, putting a foreign text into English that accurately

reflects the technicalities is the essence of the translator's job."

I never said it wasn't, only how easy it is for someone with adequate language not to be able to come up with a good translation - and one of my best friends is a translator (and no, it's not Betty!).

As for information, correct, believable, and dated - don't start me.  I spent the better part of my professional life, when I wasn't organising  information, finding it .. in-built in me to look at source, date, reliability, duplication, etc - so very much on FB and other social media sources, including our favourite much quoted "non"-sources of the Connexion and the Local, are but pieces of information copied from one to the other ... without any verification. 

And with respect, NormanH, the French text is what it says, but interpreting it, never mind since we still don't even know if it WILL come into force, seems to be another ball park altogether.

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[quote user=" YCCMB"]CT SAID: YCCMB - Visa free entry and the right of residence are two totally different things

Something of which I am fully aware. Really. You (not i) made a totally erroneous comment about how you speculated things would be with regard to visas. I corrected you. I may have discounted the number of countries listed to the official schengen visa website but as you were unaware of this fact until I told you, I'm just glad I prompted you to fact-check what you were suggesting.[/quote]

You should be a politician.
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CT SAID: You should be a politician.

You really don't like being corrected, do you?

But in fairness, a monkey in a frock could be a politician at the moment and would undoubtedly be doing a better job than any of the ones in power or, indeed, those hoping to be so.
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[quote user="chessie"]BinB - yes, I know it's the Telegraph  !!

I had a little bet with myself that, if anyone responded to my little contribution, that one of the first posts would refer to 'the paper'... rather than what was reported !!

You won !!

Chessie

[/quote]

And your point is? I’m afraid I’ve seen enough of the Telegraph’s version of facts to know that it’s probably best to discount what it has to say. You of course might have different views. I would say lucky you but unfortunately I couldn’t go that fall. As my comment was very much tongue in cheek your response has younfalling on your face yet again.
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[quote user="NormanH"]
The red herring about the cost of a carte de séjour in the looney Local shows again the perils of trusting the anglophone press that doesn't refer back to official sources but relies on a sort of 'bloke I met in the pub told that'  anecdotal inaccuracy.

shows that the cost at present of  a carte de séjour for retired non-EU citizen is 19€

That doesn't mean that it will be the same for British citizens post-Brexit, but it makes one wonder why that official figure wasn't quoted, and the French government source not referred to.

[/quote]

When I click on your link above, I get a home improvement site.

Looking at the link which opened, it is the service public address preceded by "http://www.https.com//", and if I delete this to leave the correct address I get the correct site.

I have come across a similar thing happening when clicking links on a couple of other websites, one of which takes me to a credit building site hosted by WordPress

Does anyone know why this is happening, please?

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