French Gov't Order of Feb 6 re Hard Brexit

[nomoss]

Since no-one seems to have mentioned this, it is here

EDIT: I'm afraid I cannot supply a translation into English, but maybe one will eventually find its way into some English media.

[NormanH]

That is a very dense read, but extremely useful. Thank you.

[Spider]

Connexion seems to have it covered:

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Brexit/French-order-on-Britons-no-deal-rights-is-now-law?fbclid=IwAR2nv4RPFxzOwDzSyL7NScEw0rVNBzptKkVpktrWcAubZc8VbT1VsElayWU

[mrsblack]

Thanks Nomoss. I have read about a third of it. The meaning I take from it is that in the absence of an agreed Brexit - a hard or off-cliff-edge Brexit, we British nationals will have our rights to stay without a titre de sejour continue for three months and to continue for beyond that for a period up to ayear. However, I am not a lawyer, nor an expert, so I expect that our organisations in Europe that support our staying will be looking closely at the text. Good news. Meanwhile back at my desk I work on with the documents.....Thanks Nomoss for bringing it to our attention.

[NormanH]

As usual it is better not to be mislead by the Correction[:D]

READ what the French text says!

On health care

La personne couverte par l'assurance maladie britannique en vertu du

règlement (CE) n° 883/2004 du Parlement européen et du Conseil du 29

avril 2004 et du règlement (CE) n° 987/2009 du Parlement européen et du

Conseil du 16 septembre 2009 et qui réside légalement en France à la

date du retrait du Royaume-Uni de l'Union européenne continue à

bénéficier de la prise en charge des soins de santé pour elle-même et

ses ayant-droits, dans les mêmes conditions qu'un assuré d'un régime

français obligatoire, jusqu'à l'expiration du délai mentionné au II du

présent article.

II. - Par dérogation à l'article 1er, le bénéfice de

la continuité de prise en charge des soins de santé mentionnés au I du

présent article est garanti pendant une période de deux ans à compter de

l'entrée en vigueur de la présente ordonnance aux conditions prévalant

jusqu'à cette date, sauf si un accord avec le Royaume-Uni est conclu

avant cette échéance afin de régir pour l'avenir les modalités de

compensation financière de la dépense résultant, pour chaque Etat, des

conditions de prise en charge des soins de santé de leurs assurés

respectifs.

III. - A l'expiration du délai mentionné au II du présent

article et à défaut d'intervention d'un accord, les conditions de prise

en charge des soins de santé des personnes couvertes par l'assurance

maladie britannique mentionnées au I du même article seront réexaminées.

[mogs]

Anyone who has Facebook, the group Remain in France Together are getting all the details ready in English, taken from the Government Ordonnance.

Alternatively they have a website:

https://www.remaininfrance.org/post-brexit---no-deal.html

[NormanH]

WHY WHY WHY do people refuse to read the official site of the country they wish to live in?

[mrsblack]

Quite right NormanH. I didn't read as far as the Healthcare bit. However, it seems to me that the French Govt. is being sensible .I wish I could say the same about the UK.one.

[Cathar Tours]

Probably Norman they don't have, in this case, such perfect French language skills as yourself and it is well known that Google translation often gets it wrong. Given that why quote it in French and not just put the basics of it in English afterwards just to help people out who are not quite so superior in these matters as yourself?

[mogs]

It comes from the official site Norman. But translated by someone who has/is taking time to read through it to help those of us who cannot unfortunately read it in French. It's an official document, so better to have a "true" translation. I also have a French friend who is very kindly looking at it for me, and is happy to.

Like the previous poster some of us do not have the spoken or written skills, unlike yourself.

[Cathar Tours]

I found another English language source if it helps.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20190208/no-deal-brexit-what-the-new-french-law-means-for-britons-in-france-so-far

Reading the link above it seems the cost of the CDS for UK Nationals if they don't physically have one by the 29th March "will definitely be between €200 and €340". This is because the current CDS, which you get to keep is issued under the EU but the new one won't be as it will be different. Well that's what it says in the link which is within the link above.

[YCCMB]

A small but important thing about offering up a translation, or even an interpretation of something: it leaves the person who did it wide open to being held responsible if their interpretation is taken as gospel by a third party and it turns out to be inaccurate.

I see both points of view. Not everyone does have the language skills to read the original text, however to berate someone for not providing a service that they are under no obligation to provide isn't really appropriate. If you can't translate something, it seems clear that you also probably don't realise how much effort and time is involved in doing a translation. It's a bit like asking a plumber to come round and install a new bathroom for you because you can't and they can. Or the requests I frequently see on Facebook pages from people saying they need some painting doing and that its "half a day's work" . If they can't do it themselves, then how do they know how long it's going to take someone who can?

[mogs]

[quote user=" YCCMB"]A small but important thing about offering up a translation, or even an interpretation of something: it leaves the person who did it wide open to being held responsible if their interpretation is taken as gospel by a third party and it turns out to be inaccurate.

I see both points of view. Not everyone does have the language skills to read the original text, however to berate someone for not providing a service that they are under no obligation to provide isn't really appropriate. If you can't translate something, it seems clear that you also probably don't realise how much effort and time is involved in doing a translation. It's a bit like asking a plumber to come round and install a new bathroom for you because you can't and they can. Or the requests I frequently see on Facebook pages from people saying they need some painting doing and that its "half a day's work" . If they can't do it themselves, then how do they know how long it's going to take someone who can?[/quote]

Yes I understand your points YCCMB. I also understand how long it takes to have something officially translated as our daughter is setting herself up to do this. She's pretty busy so unfortunately can't help with such a long and detailed document as this ordonnance.

Thanks for the other link CT.

[Mac]

[quote user="NormanH"]WHY WHY WHY do people refuse to read the official site of the country they wish to live in?

[/quote]

I would but I also need to understand it completely-so while I'm glad that your French is up to it- mine isn't. At least on RIFT it's being looked at and translated direct from the government issued communique by fluent French speakers who are also cross referencing it against other announcements.

[Cathar Tours]

YCCMB - I don't think that is correct when it comes to forums such as this. I base that on whenever I have being doing some research and have carried out a search within the forum there has in most cases been excellent material however there have been some of the most horrendous errors both intentionally and unintentionally some of which could have at best caused financial stress and at worse physical stress should people have taken what was said to be 100% correct. To the best of my knowledge and certainly there is no evidence within the forum as far as I can see nobody has ever been sued etc.

There have been one or two occasions where what has been written in the ex-pats press has been incorrect (in Germany as well) but generally it is correct and for many provides a necessary link to what is going on in these troubled times in their native language.

I think most grown up people would accept that a brief overview of the salient points in English would not be legally binding in a forum such a this.

However the truth of the matter is some people within some forums (this one is not unique) take the position that if you can't speak the language properly then you shouldn't be living in the country which is absolute tosh my father lives in France and will tell anyone, including the French, that his spoken language skills are well below par and his written skills are zero. Fortunately modern technology now gives us instant spoken translation on the fly and means he no longer needs a translator to visit a doctor etc.

[woolybanana]

So, does your Dad take a pillow translator to see the doc? I must try that.?

[YCCMB]

CT: I think it is up to individual posters to decide if they are prepared to spend what is, after all, their own leisure time, developing a "brief overview of the salient points". I do understand that there are many people who aren't able to translate or understand other languages. Dealing with them was my job for the latter stages of my working life.

My (perhaps badly made) point is that unless you're able to do a translation (or a synopsis) you tend not to realise quite how much work is involved. It's quite often the case on here, for example, that people ask for help because they've been unable to google something in French. I'm happy to help by doing the googling, but I'm not then going to spend my time interpreting the results thrown up by that Google search.

Just an example, if you'll bear with me.

Somewhere on this forum going back some years, there was a request from someone who wanted to know if, in France, there were companies such as exist in the UK who will come round and resurface your cast-iron bath in situ. It just so happened that I'd been looking into something similar so it wasn't much of a stretch for me to google and provide him with a couple of links. This person responded by asking me if I could check whether they operated in his exact area (and here I quote the poster) "because I'm too busy at the moment to do it myself".

Some people come here for entertainment, some for information, some to be helpful, but none of us, I suspect, come here to be taken for granted.

FWIW, I can understand Norman's frustration. I also can understand that he perhaps hasn't entirely thought through the fact that referring to the original source text is one thing, but understanding it is quite another. As you correctly point out, we are all adults. So there's really nothing preventing us from doing the adult thing and conducting our own research.

[Cathar Tours]

[quote user="woolybanana"]So, does your Dad take a pillow translator to see the doc? I must try that.?[/quote]

If you have a smart phone then install Google Translate. Admittedly you need a data connection put it translates the spoken word on the fly from almost any language to another. There is a conversation mode as well which is not perfect but pretty good and enables you to have a two way translated conversation with another person. Previously he would hire a person to translate for him when he went to the doctors, tax office etc.

[EuroTrash]

+1 to that YCCMB.

It worries me when people place blind faith in online translation apps. They're a useful aid to human intelligence, not a replacement. I've known them come up with a translation that's the exact opposite of the source text, simply by misinterpreting a negative expression.

I've always said that translation is a 3-way process - read the source, understand it, then express as close as possible to the same thing in another language. It's the 3rd stage that takes the time - and is only useful to other people because once you've understood it, there's no benefit to yourself in re-expressing it.

[Cathar Tours]

YCCMB - Then why copy and paste the text in French when all you have to do is post a link which is what the OP actually did? It's making life difficult for others who are already stressed (more so it seems in France) with Brexit and their future. It means you have to cut and copy into something like Google Translator and in many cases you lose the formatting especially if you cut and paste from this forum because of the naff software. The OP's link just needs to be opened in Chrome (as an example) and it will translate for you automatically.

We are lucky in Germany in that all that is required is done automatically when you go to Germany to work. There is little difference between third country immigrants and EU migrants within the system. The only worry is for retirees healthcare (S1) but France and Germany are well into negotiations with the NHS with regards to reciprocal healthcare or so our ex-pat newspapers tell us. Fortunately not many ex-pats retire to Germany so the issue is nowhere as big here as it is in France, Spain and Ireland (the three biggest choices for ex-pats to retire to.

The thing is regardless of what people will say in an open forum many, including my father, are extremely worried about their future and many are actually losing sleep over it with some having to medicate as well. I mean you work hard all your life, retire and move to another country, settle in and make new friends only to find years down the road that all of it could be taken away from you with a stroke of a pen through no fault of your own. Like many people my father does not want to go back to the UK having spent over 20 years in France leaving all his friends behind to find himself somewhere, on his own, with no friends etc.

[YCCMB]

Again, totally understand that people are stressed. Again, I'm just making the point that it's not necessarily the job of people on a forum to devote their time to alleviating that stress for others. There is no substitute for one's own, proper research.

Personally, I've found that not spending much time worrying about Brexit (including switching off the news and not reading too much online etc) has considerably reduced my stress levels. Foremost, because there is still little hard, definitive information about anything, and secondly because most of what there is, is speculation being peddled as hard fact.

And, before it's mentioned, I've steered clear of most discussion, even on here, because yes, I'm not resident in France. However, I do own a property there, and there will be many, many aspects of that which will be affected (probably quite adversely) by the results of Brexit. I'll deal with them once I have a clear understanding of what they are, backed up by legislation and fact. Until then, my blood pressure is mine to manage as I see fit, and I'm managing it by not getting overly exercised about things I can't change or influence.

My son once complained at school that he was being made by us, his parents, to do too much work at home. His teacher queried this, and asked for examples. My son announced that we "made" him go round the house in winter when he came in from school and close the curtains to keep the heat in. The teachers fell about laughing. I'm afraid to say that your arguments are beginning to sound a bit similar.

Norman isn't responsible for people losing formatting. He's directing people to a relevant part of the proposed legislation which some may miss as it's buried in the text. If he'd posted a link, I doubt many would have found it. It's churlish to expect him to do everything for you, and being critical of that is a sure fire way of dissuading people from trying to help in the first place.

[woolybanana]

Norman has nothing else to do. Surely, asking him to translate is an act of kindness.

[EuroTrash]

CT, please. It's been explained to you that your father has nothing to worry about. Everyone who has lived here legally for over 5 years is entitled to join the French healthcare system, and Brexit won't change this. EVERY SINGLE French text that's been published has confirmed this. If your dad is a pensioner on a low income he will have nothing to pay, if he has a substantial income he may have to contribute a little but not more than he can afford.

If you and your father are determined to worry then we can't stop you, but that is your luxury. Please don't blame the French for producing difficult texts in French, try to make forum members feel guilty for having their own lives, and sow worries in other people's minds when it has already been confirmed beyond reasonable doubt.

If you can point to one single reason why your dad is in a special position and might not be entitled to healthcare even though every other Brit retiree who's been resident for 5 years will be, please tell us.

[Judith]

Back to a comment made earlier - reading and understanding is one thing, putting it into English another - but whether that English will accurately reflect the technicalities  of the text is another matter entirely.

I can read most texts, if I so desire, and make adequate sense of most, but even for simple things I do not always get the actual sense ... so often I have said, I know what the words mean, but I do not know the sense in this context.

There's the rub!

[EuroTrash]

With respect Judith, putting a foreign text into English that accurately reflects the technicalities is the essence of the translator's job. If it doesn't, then it's a poor translation. Sometimes the best translation looks very different when put side by side with the original, because trying to stay very close to the original simply didn't work and it's been necessary to change the structure quite a lot to arrive at the same meaning. But only a human translator knows when this is necessary; most automatic translation engines translate the words but don't understand the meaning. If they've translated all the words they've done their job, they don't care whether the translation they've produced means the same as the original, or indeed whether it means anything at all.

And of course there's the issue that these texts don't spell out absolutely everything. They make reference to other texts and existing arrangements and agreements, so to get the full meaning it is also necessary to either understand the references or go away and check them out.

For instance I think one of the paragraphs says something about Brits will be entitled to healthcare on the same basis as other residents. Obviously, if you don't know the basis on which other residents are entitled to healthcare, you won't know what this means even if you have a perfect translation of the words.