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Help with newly seeded lawn


Daft Doctor
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Hi, we paid a local (and highly recommended) paysagiste handsomely to prepare and seed 400m2 of our new garden to create some lawned areas. 5 weeks have now passed, during which we religiously kept the surface gently moist initially, and once germination started, have (despite the high temperatures in France) kept all areas well watered. Despite this, at this stage the results are really disappointing, with very patchy and uneven growth, many bare patches, and areas where weeds are doing better than any grass.

The paysagiste's preparation consisted of putting down extra (non-sieved) topsoil where he thought it necessary, rotavating the entire surface, then raking to get rid of some of the larger stones (there are still many smaller stones on the surface). He then seeded by hand, raked everything level, scattered some fertiliser on the top then rolled it. It was all done in a day by 3 men, all by hand. I have contacted the paysagiste and emailed photos of the current state of play, but I am still waiting for him to get back to me. We will be doing a first cut on what is there later this week (waiting for arrival of Lithium powered mower), but the question is, should I be expecting any more at this stage, or am I being unduly pessimistic? Is there anything short of reseeding all the bare patches (probably 40% in total of the entire surface) that we (or rather, the paysagiste) can do. Was the preparation adequate (living in the Alps we have very stony soil)? Any thoughts, opinions or advice greatly appreciated.
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You could try sprinkling over the french equivalent of feed and weed. I can't name one but your garden shop should be able to.

What's the weather like with you? Here it's scorching hot and the grass has gone yellow, but there will probably be a regrowth late August into September. So if you're the same wait a while until there's a new growth spurt.

Maybe the paysagiste used poor quality grass seed.

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Caveat - I haven't seeded a whole lawn for many years, just patches here and there, and only in England.

Your paysagiste needs to give his opinion, but if such a lot hasn't germinated by now, remedial sowing perhaps needs doing, but he'll be able to tell you. In April we sowed seed on a bare, flattened area where bushes had been removed, watered it for a couple of days, then went off to France for a month and left it to its own devices. On our return, we had some bare patches, but most filled gradually within the next few weeks with watering and sunshine. It's looking OK now.

On your land, I think I would have added well-rotted manure on soil such as you describe, before rotovating and rolling, and I would have left time for it to settle, at least a few days, probably a month or so, but if your chap has been highly recommended, I assume that's how he normally does lawns in your area plus he knows your soil type.

A lot depends on the quality of the seed too, and usually it's best to sow it before temperatures start rising or in the autumn as temperatures cool somewhat.

If it was my lawn, I would wait for the grass to be 2/3 inches high before firming the soil again, either by foot, carefully treading slowly along so that any slightly raised parts are flattened, or by using a roller, or I remember using the back roller of the cylinder mower. A couple of days later, cut the grass by about a third; I preferred a cylinder mower and took off the front roller so the new grass doesn't get flattened. The blades need to be very sharp.

For further cuts, reduce the height and cut regularly and use the lawn as little as possible this first season. Top dress with sieved compost in early autumn to keep the surface level.

I hope your chap arrives to see the lawn before long, so you'll have his opinion, and help with it I hope.
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Thanks to you both. The weather has been ridiculously hot here (36 degrees in the Alps for goodness sake!), but we've been very careful to avoid the surface going dry despite that. I think the quality of the soil may be a part of the problem, but then again, as you say Gardengirl, the paysagiste should know that and only sow on something he's happy with. I've texted him today, but as it is Bastille day it isn't very likely I'll get a reply until tomorrow at the earliest.

As I see it, if nothing is done there isn't a hope of the bare patches being inhabited by anything but weeds, but if my memory serves me right you can't use a weed and feed product on young grass. Our local Mr Bricolage has re-seeding bags containing seed, fertiliser and topsoil, but at 25 euros for a bag covering 16m2 it ain't cheap. Hopefully the paysagiste will agree to do the necessary without too much of a fight, even if it means we have to wait a bit until the temperature cools a bit and we have to continue to keep our dog off the garden for the foreseeable!
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My views on Brits trying to grow lawns in Southern France are probably well known, but I make no apology for repeating them.

 

I am not sure  what you are expecting from your lawn, but if it is to replicate a British manicured lawn of fine grasses, I would give up now.

 

I am not saying it is impossible, but it is certainly extremely difficult and very expensive to achieve this far South - even in the Alps.  If you succeed in germinating the seed, the drought will hit the seedlings hard and quickly coarser grasses and weeds will take over.

 

At school I was given two sets of advice.  The geography master insisted that temperate grasses (as used in lawns) would not grow when temperatures were below 40F or above 75F.  The biology master insisted there was no biological reason why grasses could not grow at cooler or hotter temperatures.  Thus the difference between empirical observation and pure theoretical science.  Theoretically you can have your lawn, empirically you cannot.

 

I would not have sown seed in May - already too late and the grasses would be bound to be stressed by summer temperatures - and I would have used turf (assuming I could find it - which so far I have not).  Seed sowing is a strictly September activity this far south, even at altitude.  You might get away with it in early October depending how quickly the first frosts and snows arrive.

 

The key question is, how many gardens around you have the lawn you are trying to emulate?  If the answer is none, then I think I know why.

 

By all means have a patch of mown coarse grasses, I have.  But do not expect a manicured lawn.

 

 

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The post from Andyh4 made me realise I can't do Fahrenheit anymore!

So thanks to Interweb,  that's between about 4 and 24 deg C in real money.  I would have said you could got a bit beyond these limits with the appropriate grass.

My archery club in Luxembourg had it's outdoor range refurbished this year (they did a fantastic job!) Part of the job was to rotavate and reseed most of the ground (100m x 40m)  They rotavated, put down enormous amounts of Poo (which stank for weeks) seed, roll and water like mad.

This was done late April and now we have lush green grass everywhere except for a few small bare patches which were possibly out of the water spray area.  Different conditions I know but the basic soil structure was poor hence all the animal poo I suppose. Temperature here is mostly temperate but it can get very cold in winter and very hot in summer so it might be possible to grow grass further south

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Hi Andy, agree with much of what you say. As far as what we expect, the purpose of putting the grass down certainly wasn't to have a putting green style fine grass ornamental affair. We have a large plot, so the idea was to provide some green utility areas which required relatively less maintenance than flower beds, etc, but still looked reasonable to the eye. I agree that in our case some meadow turf would probably have been ideal, but as you say, it doesn't seem to exist round here and if prep and seeding cost us 90 euros TTC per sqm, I dread to think what turf would have cost us!

We do see not unreasonable lawns round and about us, so something practical can't be impossible. As for the timing of the planting, we had the paysagiste look at the job last September, but he deferred to this year as he had too much on and said October would be too late (as it happened it was very mild right up until Xmas, so it would have been fine). As is often the case with French tradesmen, I had to remind him to come and get the job done after the snow had gone, and despite all the prior notice he had, it was early June before he came and seeded. He is however coming today to have a look and says he will do 'le nécessaire', but that is now likely to be late August/early September.
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Several years ago I seeded a new lawn (here in the Gers) in September. It got going but not too well, so I tried again in March/April and it grew fine.

The soil here is clay but very fertile, which is an advantage over yours.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Just an update - the paysagiste came round on 16th July and agreed that the grass wasn't looking too good. He cut the existing grass down to 50cm, then despite me asking if he prefered to come back when the weather was cooler and not so dry, he proceeded to rake certain areas then scatter some grass seed and fertiliser on the barest parts. More than 2 weeks down the line, despite a fair bit of rain and watering as much as allowed by our current restrictions, none of the new seed has germinated. Some areas have thickened up a bit, helped by more regular mowing, but without improving the stony nature of the soil at the surface I doubt whether we'll see a lot of progress in the worst areas.

The paysagiste did say to call him if we weren't happy, and he would reseed as needed, so we'll give it til late August and get him back in. Mr Bric sells (expensively) 'patch bags' with seed, topsoil and fertiliser mixed together, which would perhaps be a better idea for the autumn. Ultimately, annual top dressing will improve the soil situation over time, and at least the grass that has germinated looks in the main to be a healthy colour and is growing strongly. Thanks again for your pearls of wisdom, much appreciated as always!
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