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In an average year how many weeks realistically is a B&B full?


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[quote]In an average year how many weeks realistically is a B&B full? and could you do this as your sole income..(sorry to be a pain but i have so many questions to ask..)[/quote]

Hi,

The average for the Correze (slightly higher figures according the the ORTL than the Haute Vienne, where you're looking) is of the order of 20 to 30% in a year long basis. Most people are full in July & August.

Can you live on it? No way, Joe.

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"Can you live on it? No way, Joe."

Now I know that 99% of B&B owners on this site will agree with Ian.  But I say, "How long is a piece of string?"  There are so many variables. 

How much do you intend to charge per night? How many rooms do you have?  What IS your occupancy level?  What are your outgoings?  What kind of standard of living do you expect?

We have two rooms and last year I had 170 nights booked.  I had to turn away so many people in June, August and September it was untrue.  I also had about 6 enquiries for 3 or 4 nights over both the Christmas and New Year periods, which I chose not to take, so I could have had higher occupancy than I did, and if I had a third or 4th room it would have been much higher. 

By the summer we will have another room up and running and by the end of the year a 4th.  I reckon that if business carries on as it has for the last couple of years that once we have 4 rooms we WILL be able to live soley off the B&B.  We don't have a flash lifestyle though - and don't seek one.  And B&B is not an easy option!!!  But we're happy with it.

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I think some of the figures mentioned above would be for established businesses although I find 90 nights per room year a little hard to believe. I take it from your post that you are either new to the BnB business or are thinking of opening one. In either case it can take a very long time to establish yourself. I know a number of well established top quality Chambre d’Hôtes in the Dordogne region that are only just scraping a living, because of their regular clientele. A lot of factors come into play when starting a new BnB business: the location, the quality of your rooms, pricing, local competition etc, etc.

I think everyone will agree that at the moment the French tourist industry is a depressed market. Supply far outstrips demand as more and more people move to France with the same idea as you. Advertising is a very important part of your business. Without doubt your best source for clients will be your local Office du Tourisme (depending on the area you are in). The problem with this is that if your French is not good, you may not do very well as the majority of people passing through their doors are French. There are many good BnB Guides that you should try and get into. The Karen Brown guide in the States, Alastair Sawday in the UK, France’s Guide du Charme to name a few. The problem is that these publications are very hard to get into and are getting more and more expensive, but, they do work.

So to answer the second part of your question. By the time you have paid to renovate your property to an acceptable standard, paid to advertise your property, paid your “cotisations” (this will depend on the number of rooms you have and/or if you need to be covered by the French system), paid any Taxe de Sejour (if applicable in your area) there will be very little profit left on which to have a decent standard of living. You need to bear in mind that it could take up to five years to establish yourself. If you are reliant on your savings or a pension to sustain you, you may find it hard going. The heady days of 2000/2001 where properties showed high demand and turnovers are no more. We still live in hope that these days will return however!!

I wish you the very best of luck with your project and every success for the future.

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You can get a rough idea from availability charts on B&B websites.

Interesting. As others have said I wouldn't think you can earn much of a living unless you are in a touristy area (maybe near ski-slopes and the med or the Brittany coast), have five bedrooms and offer evening meals.

Personally I don't think you get a very good return for the work you have to put in (or the lack of privacy) but hey, ho some people love housework and bedmaking!!

Has anyone worked out their average hourly earnings??

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Interesting. As others have said I wouldn't think you can earn much of a living unless you are in a touristy area (maybe near ski-slopes and the med or the Brittany coast), have five bedrooms and offer evening meals.

And as someone else said on another thread, there is virtually no profit to be made from evening meals, you really only benefit from the "added value" factor, in that often people (especially the French) will book a B&B that does offer evening meals over one that doesn't.

Has anyone worked out their average hourly earnings??

I daren't, it would be ridiculously low, well below SMIC but then it's a lifestyle rather than a job as such and although I don't particularly ENJOY housework there is a lot more to running a successful B&B than that - and people like the lovely French couple who stayed with us last night, make the hard work worthwhile.  Hope that doesn't sound too sickly

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Hi Coco

No you don't sound sickly to me.  I detest housework with a passion - but do it because that's what it takes.  I live in a beautiful place, in a lovely house, and consider those to be perks of the job.  We don't earn much money - in fact I think we are officially poor - but we do have fun, meet great people and have a lifestyle which we enjoy.  If I'm honest I suspect it won't be forever, but for the time being I am happy.

Evening meals are not very profit worthy, but I enjoy cooking and entertaining and we get to eat nice food 'free' - so not too many complaints.  I cannot think anyone would seriously contemplate this life if they wanted to be rich, and I would never advise anyone to borrow money to do it.  We don't have any debts, but neither do we have another source of income other than a little - and I mean little - savings.  I know that everyone would not enjoy what we do, but as you say it is a way of life.  Our guests at Easter took us out to dinner, and lots buy me presents, flowers and, maybe I have been lucky, they  are on the whole a pleasant bunch.  

Before all the usual suspects accuse me of rose coloured spectacles syndrome, I have the usual amount of irritation with French bureaucracy etc, but we CHOSE to live here and we can unchose if we want.  Nowhere is perfect, we have the same problems here as anywhere else plus a few extra caused by living in a different culture.

A bit off topic for Petrified's question - so, we had over 200 nights in our first season - we have 2 double rooms and a family suite, and a large number of repeat bookings for this year.  I think it is important to be in a fairly tourist orientated area and to work at getting the bookings.  I have been invited by the local council to be on the committee for the future of tourism in this area and I work very hard at promoting our business locally - also I do speak French which I think is a great asset for getting French customers.

I was told that viable is 70 nights per room per year, but have no idea how that was worked out.  Not rich picking but maybe possible to live on if you want to.

 

Maggi

 

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Hi Coco,

Can you live on it? No way, Joe."

Now I know that 99% of B&B owners on this site will agree with Ian.  But I say, "How long is a piece of string?"  There are so many variables.

Of course. And I'm making a load of assumptions. If Martin (petrified) speaks good french, he could probably get work as a builder, especially if he's honest (of course he is!) competent (naturally!) hard working (goes without saying!) and sticks to his promises. Under those circumstances, the B&B business would be a complementary income, and the whole ball park woud be different. But I was answering the question as it was asked, which - basically - said "can a family live off B&B in the Limoges area from a £90k initial investment?" A family implies at least one child it seems to me.

How much do you intend to charge per night? How many rooms do you have?  What IS your occupancy level?  What are your outgoings?
What kind of standard of living do you expect?

For Martin, these are all up in the air. However, one can make some intelligent guesstimates. Firstly - as we've discussed to death in other threads - to be registered as Chambres d'Hôte, you're limited to 5/6 rooms. Assume 5 to avoid the hassle of inspections. There really IS a practicable limit to what one can charge, especially in the area round Limoges. At £90k, Martin isn't going to be able to buy and restore a property that will be able to get 4 épis. So he's limited to 3. For 3 épis, about the MOST one can hope for in this area, is €45/50 a night for two, unless you're in a truly exceptionally touristy place (and I don't know many in that area). If one asks much more than the going rate, you're going to limit yourself to ignorant foreigners (because everyone else will know about looking on the web, Gites de France et) and that's going to make severe inroads on occupancy.

As I've said before, the average occupancy level in this region is round about 25%, year round, concentrated in the summer. Having a small place with only 3 rooms, it's relatively easy for us to get full, and for various reasons, mostly to do with luck, we're able to run at more or less double that (47% or so). We wouldn't get near to that with 5 rooms. My best guess would be that we'd get to 35% if we had 5 rooms. I doubt if a B&B in the Limoges area with 5 rooms would get better than 25% year round. So let's be optimistic and go with that. 5*365*50/4 is the sum to do, therefore, to give an optimistic gross income. That works out at just under €22k or £14500 per annum, before ANY expenses are paid.

Outgoings. Assuming that Martin's quality of workmanship is magnificent, especially in terms of decorating, and that they use top quality kit throughout, repairs and maintenance will be low, call it an allocation of 10% per year for redecoration, repairs, replacements wear and tear and so on. Again assuming that they do all the work themselves, not relying on hiring a cleaner, or help in the garden, then day to day expenses are low, call it €3 a room for breakfast and about €1 a room for cleaning materials. So with 450 odd room nights that they could realistically hope for, that's only €1800 off. Heating - if they're open 365/365 - in the Limoges area, they will need to begin to heat from early October probably earlier, and go right through to April (we had to put the CH on last night). For a big house, that's not going to be peanuts and I'd look to pay some €4000 for that alone.

So, with the major B&B related expenses taken off (€8000) they'll be left with a semi gross income of €14k.

We have two rooms and last year I had 170 nights booked.  I had to turn away so many people in June, August and September it was untrue.  I also had about 6 enquiries for 3 or 4 nights over both the Christmas and New Year periods, which I chose not to take, so I could have had higher occupancy than I did, and if I had a third or 4th room it would have been much higher.

With respect, Coco, I don't agree. Not for you in your area, but certainly not near Limoges. Like you, I'm turning away depressing numbers (actually I'm not, I'm passing them on to colleagues that I respect in the area) for the summer months. However, you would be surprised if you did the sums. Many are for the same few weekends (we find). We could fill 40 rooms for the weekend of the big cross over around the 1st August. But most of my colleagues are less than half full in June and September, especially those with large capacity. We are fine, but we've only 3 rooms. I would _guess_ that if you had a tardis house, which could expand without limit to fulfil the demand, you'd let perhaps 600 or 700 room nights. We get 500 roughly.

By the summer we will have another room up and running and by the end of the year a 4th.  I reckon that if business carries on as it has for the last couple of years that once we have 4 rooms we WILL be able to live solely off the B&B.

With a family? It's one thing for a couple (as we are) near retirement age, and quite another with a family. What I'd be fascinated to know maybe 2 years down the line, is how things have worked out. I think, though of course without knowing where you are, what your prices are compared with others and so on,  that you will NOT be at more than 450 room nights.

We don't have a flash lifestyle though - and don't seek one.  And B&B is not an easy option!!!  But we're happy with it.

Three sentiments with which I'd agree completely.

 

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Hi,

Just a quickie to comment on Cerise's post.

I agree with almost everything you say. And we're in a very similar situations. I'm V-P of our local Tourist Committee and a member of the administrative council of Gites de France, Correze. Jacquie is half French and was a french teacher, so we have no problems in french.

Like you, we adore the lifestyle, and we too had a super dinner last night. Some internet correspondents (fr.rec.boissons.vins) of mine came to stay the night, so we decided to have a bit of a party with them and a young restaurateur and his wife. They'd brought a couple of wines, we pulled out something special. We lost money - who cares? We had a glorious evening.

But if we were trying to live off it with a fambly....

 

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