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So How ***** big does a Bedroom NEED To Be?


Coco
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Well, we've just had the GdF lady round.  And where haven't I cleaned, what I haven't I done to make sure I meet their requirements???

All the mattress protectors have been replaced with waterproof ones, because that's what it suggests in their book for 3 epis;

Nice feather pillows replaced with foam ones, because that's what it suggests in their book for 3 epis

Furniture shifted round to make sure there is at least one chair per person in each room

Fresh flowers in each room, because that's what it suggests in their book for 3 epis

In fact, I went through their guide of what warranted a 3 epis chambres d'hotes and felt that we equalled or exceeded absolutely all of their criteria.  The one problem we might have was a shower curtain instead of a glass door in one bathroom and the shower actually being over the bath when they recommended that the two should be separate.  But no, she said that was all OK.

She was a very nice lady and I was amazed that having read on here how some people's homes were pulled apart by GdF inspectors, I was ready for the worst.  However, she went into each room, made a couple of minor suggestions, lifted up the duvets to check what the beds were like, then proclaimed that the place was absolutely beautiful and she would be delighted to take us into the association as soon as we had a couple of bars put on a couple of low windows, which is something we knew we had to do anyway.  So, I said, what grading would you give me?

TWO epis she said!!!!  So I asked what I needed to do to make it a 3 epis CdH.  Nothing she said.  Can't be done she said.  Your bedrooms are beautiful but they are too small.  Now one bedroom is 13ft x 14ft, which works out at 17.23 sq metres.  The other is 15ft x 15ft (21.25 sq m), they both have bathrooms in excess of 4 sq m (3 epis requirement).  According to their book a 2 epis room needs to be a min. of 15sq m and a 3 epis a min. of 18sq m.  She also commented on how lovely and big the twin bedded room attached to the larger room is, for children's use, (also being about 18sq m) So just HOW big did she expect the rooms to be in order to warrant the extra epis?

It seems to me that absolutely none of the decor, comfort or facilities were taken into account; she was extremely impressed to see tea and coffee making facilities and hair dryers in the rooms; she commented on the pretty furniture and the fact that one room had a settee and the other (will be getting) two armchairs, and yet when it boiled down to grading it, all of that seems to have been ignored and only the SIZE of the rooms taken into account.  Not really much incentive for making a place comfortable is it?  Don't think I'll bother to get the armchairs now.

In fact, I don't know that I will bother to go into GdF now.  I've stayed in a couple of 2 epis places in the past and they were pretty dire.  I feel that to be classified as a 2 epis could put a lot of people off, rather than encourage them to come, especially when people round here only charge 25-30 euros a night for a 2 epis double!!

Interestingly enough, we bumped into our ex-Maire yesterday and he asked how business was going.  We told him that we had the GdF inspection today and he wished us MUCH good luck.  He said that the director in Manche is a bit of an awkward buggar and a bit of a tyrant and that's why not many people bothered with them round here.  He felt that the association in itself is a good thing and that other departements are much better run - perhaps he's right!!  It's interesting that, although they are desparate to encourage more CdH in this particular area, within a 20km radius of us there are quite a few CdH but only about 6 in GdF.  I think I know why now.

Anyone else experienced anything like this?  And do you think it would be worth my pointing out that one of my rooms is only .75 of a sq metre too small for the 3 epis rating and that the other is 3 sq metres bigger than it needs to be and ask therefore, why we can't be upgraded because of the room sizes.  According to the Guide a la creation de CdH you have to get so many points in various areas (garden, terrases, salon, salle a manger, bedrooms, bathrooms etc); so is it worth arguing my case and saying that I don't want to go in unless I'm a 3 epis?  After all, she does seem very keen to get people signed up to GdF, especially those willing to do TdH.

Surprisingly, and perhaps a little worryingly, she didn't even look at the kitchen to see what kind of a state that is in for preparing breakfasts and TdH, which she strongly encouraged me to do.

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Well thanks for that Tony!  Without wanting to sound as though I'm bragging, that's usually the reaction we get from both English and French guests who have stayed at GdF in the past and with whom we have discussed our interest in joining. 

I wasn't sure if you were the same Tony F that stayed here, you've changed your user name.  Are you in the Dordogne permanently now?

And yes, it was last year; since then we have created a whole new terrasse area in the garden with views over the valley, and you were in the smaller of the two rooms, the other room is much bigger!  I also explained to her that we are breaking through into the adjacent barn over the winter months and will therefore be able to give the guests their own sitting area and have a larger dining area - didn't seem to make a blind bit of difference though

Another interesting point to consider is that she wanted to know why we wanted to join GdF and I said that I believed it would increase the amount of guests we got - why else would would you want to?  She felt that being a member of GdF would certainly do that.  However, when I said that I hoped it would increase our out of season bookings she wasn't so sure.  What she did say was that she thought we could greatly increase our bookings by reducing our price to 40 euros per night.  Yeah, great idea!   we'll reduce it to 20 euros, then we're bound to be full!

So, as we've managed to get pretty booked up for July and August without their help, perhaps it won't benefit us after all.  I've just done a few sums based on our nights bookings last year, which was 170, and we're well on target to exceed that this year.  If we priced our rooms as she suggests, we would be 1770 euros worse off.  At her suggested rate of 40 euros per night that means we would need to get an extra 44 nights bookings just to take the same amount of money as we did on our own, without their marketing help, last year.  We then have to pay 105 euros to join and 180 euros cotisations, well that's all reasonable enough, however that would also mean having to fill another 7 nights to recover those costs.  SO, the end result being, that GdF suggest we lower our prices to get more people through the door.  We pay them to market the property and we take their advice to increase volume.  We then have to fill 51 more nights to make the same as we did on our own last year and obviously work a lot harder for it!  If we want a nice big GdF paneau on the roadside we also have to 350 euros!

I shall discuss this later with my husband but I think we may just invest the 350 euros paneau money and 280 euros joining fee and cotisations in extra internet or magazine advertising. 

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I kind of tend to agree with you, but the only reason we're going to go through gdf is that we HAVE to do that to get the grant from the commune! Apart from that I tend to think if you've already got the bookings, why bother?
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Coco,

Time for thoughtful reflexion and to keep a cool head to analyse whether you want to join GdF or not.

As is normal with many cases we have not got the full story here. The size of rooms for instance have become de rigeur, I don’t like that rule, I think it is unnecessary to be honest but those are the rules. A good friend of ours was “downgraded” to 2 epis from long time 3 epis, due to the bathrooms now falling below the size required with 3 epis in the 22 dept. He has suffered no loss in revenue

The inspector will have noted as you state, the cleanliness of the rooms, the mattress covers, the pillows, the obligatory chair, preferably two with a table (due to size, we cannot do that with half our rooms), we do not "do" fresh flowers, only in the “reception area” a couple of knocked over pots put paid to that idea and it was only a very light suggestion here, same goes for tea and coffee in the rooms, a few tipsy or just clumsy guests put paid to that and to be honest, in years gone by, you could almost count on one hand the number of French guests who use that facility, traditional timing of what drink when probably comes in to play with that !, glass shower doors are obligatory also in 35 for the 3 epis.

Like all inspections, a good trick is to ensure that you leave the inspector to find one or two things to “tell you to do” makes them feel they are doing their job !

I think you may have misinterpreted the inspector, your rooms qualify in all but one case but to gain 3 epis, they ALL have to be of the min size. In the past and, this still maybe still the rule, you could have say, one two epis room and two 3 epis rooms. You need to clear that up with them to see if that is still the case. Unfortunately, having 2 epis will also mean that the AA, B&B book in the UK will not put you in the book but you could try calling them, if the rooms can be judged seperately, to tell them that the rooms are mainly 3 epis with one smaller, not sure if that would work but…….Anyway, I don't think one gets enough bookings through them to make it an issue.

You should also think to call the head honcho for your GdF region and explain your predicament.

You see, you are now trying to dictate what GdF should be judging and that unfortunatley is not how it works ! All the rest of the members have had to go through it, they do take in to account the décor, comfort and facilities etc and everything else, but the inspector can do nothing about the size of your rooms. The rules are set in “stone”, her hands are tied.

You can stamp your feet and even scream down the road about how lovely your place is, you can say just what a bunch of idiots the GdF people are and not join, no problem but there is nothing the woman could have done. You have the recourse to talk it over with them again, they are not ogres but if you are now saying that your house is lovely and blame them, that not all the rooms meet the regulatory size and so sod them, then it may well be a case of cutting off the proverbial.

Obviously you must stay out of GdF if you feel 2 epis is not sufficient but from my experience of knowing several other Gite or CdH folk, is that without serious marketing, your trade will more or less just stutter along, unless you put in sone serious marketing strategy and advertising until it pinches, it is the only way forward.

When you say you know why there are only 6 other members, perhaps it is simply because no others fit the bill or perhaps, being with GdF, it is of no help anyway in your area ?

All I can say is this, many Brits are down with their turnover with their B&B’s (non affiliated to GdF or Cle V) and simply searching for British clients, the same for the Gite people but as we are based in France and, from day one we decided to work with the French market as our number one aim, then of course the Brits, then all others (mid you with the WWW, wherever one advertises one can possibly be picked up from anywhere in the world ) we pick up a large percentage with GdF. Now living where we do, it can be argued that our position on an axe, not too far from many touristic places, gets us the business or is it GdF or is it both things ? We can not be sure but we have not suffered a loss in trade thus far this year.

I remember Ian saying his GdF clientele was somewhat less than ours, so perhaps it is a positional thing ? It will interesting to see how Chris (Quillan) gets on but it will take a few years for him to “bed in” with them and best judged after a few years, then he will get a better feel for how he works with GdF.

Getting back to your 2nd post, it doesn’t matter what Tony (or even Chirac !) might think about your place, it is lovely OK but, it is just the room size that is the stumbling block and therefore the epis rating. Your choice is either to be the best none GdF member or to join and be one of the members with 2 (or perhaps with enough forceful argument, 3) epis.

Remember, you have had a few bees in your bonnet over GdF and their rules, I don’t like rules any more than you but if that is their regulations for joining, then you simply have to make the decision to go with them or not, going on about decor and comfort is fine but it won’t bring in the euros unless you can get that fact out to the public. Getting return guests is one thing but, it does not bring in enough to make a business like a B&B viable.

What you are going to do (the barn for instance) is simply NOT in the equation, you could tell them you are adding a super size swimming pool, a sauna, even a cinema, you cannot expect “what if’s” to be taken in to consideration surely ?

The Lady offered you her advice on pricing and you basically ridicule her thoughts. She was simply trying to offer her thoughts that’s all. It was not a command, only you will find out how your own pricing works, she only spoke from what she thinks might be correct. We are deaer than 85% around here but we do alright still. If you feel that you can always be full in peak season without them, then don’t bother but doing sums on her thoughts is just stupid, so if I told you to reduce your nightly rate to 25 euros to fill would you take notice? No of course not. But if you feel she might know something you don’t, well walk away from it all and save money.

The amount you state you will have to pay, I am sorry to say but that is peanuts in the world of genuine advertising of a specialist commerce, we personally pay almost 3 times that with GdF. If you are serious about making your B&B a viable commerce, it cannot be done on the cheap, sorry but that is a fact for any business. What are the basics? : a business with no signs, is a sign of no business (And you can put advertising firmly in that phrase)

You really do have to think about whether or not you are willing to speculate or just groan every time something appears to be going against what you personally feel is right. They have regulations, you have the cheque book and as they say, your choice............

I am not sure you are even in time for next year now are you,, our details for next year went in a while back now ? Possibly not but if you serious put your skates on or you can moan about their timing schedules as well

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[quote]I kind of tend to agree with you, but the only reason we're going to go through gdf is that we HAVE to do that to get the grant from the commune! Apart from that I tend to think if you've already got ...[/quote]

Babnik,

I do hope you are happy with your choice of taking the grants but it has always struck me as too high a price to pay, to be tied to GdF for such a long period of time.

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[quote]Babnik,I do hope you are happy with your choice of taking the grants but it has always struck me as too high a price to pay, to be tied to GdF for such a long period of time.[/quote]

Miki,

What price? I'm not understanding?

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The price I am talking about is the length of time one is tied in with GdF (3-10 years depending an amount etc)and the fact that one needs to have devis from bone fide artisans, thus pushing up the price one pays for the work, as DIY for a large part is not acceptable to GdF. Some regions will even want a large involvement in taking your reservations (gîtes). Chambres d'hôtes have to be up created to min 2 epis standard and only so much grant available per bedroom. I just wonder if the amount granted, is worth the time tied in with them?

The subventions (set fees often for B&B rooms, from 20-50% for gîtes) can of course change between regions and some regions will even try for national and European grants for you but pretty rare indeed.

What will you do if you wish to leave under the specified time and indeed how long are you "signed up" for? We know people who detested that fact after a while but yes we know Ian had his loan some years ago now but, he is the one of the only British (although his wife is French) people we have heard of (but you are of similar connections I guess), who is still with GdF many years later and after the work and obligation was completed.

Good luck to you, I am sure you will OK.

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[quote]The price I am talking about is the length of time one is tied in with GdF (3-10 years depending an amount etc)and the fact that one needs to have devis from bone fide artisans, thus pushing up the pr...[/quote]

I realize we will be tied into a contract, but you can get out of the contract. Basically you give back a percentage of the money depending on when in those 10 years you decide to back out. Now in this region, there is no restrictions as to who takes bookings. You can choose to either have GDF take over your summer months (they haven't told us which weeks they take, but I can guess!), or you can do it yourself. Unfortunately you can't mix and match! But you can change from one year to the next. You can have gdf take your bookings for the first few years until you're up and running, then take over the marketing and booking. You'll still be on their website and in their book, but bookings do not go through them. I will obviously confirm all of this again before I sign anything. I don't see what I can lose really, except the annual fee I must pay!
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Gay,

That would certainly not be the first time and have no fear, it does go on. The problem with it is, if you have say, 3 rooms and just tell them two, that is what is in the guide and website. So if 3 couples want to go away together for a few days, that's not rare, you will be overlooked. We get quite a few bookings for the whole place as we can take up to 15 persons, if we were to "knock one room on the head" so to speak, we would lose some bookings through trying to pull the wool over the inspectors eyes.

Another thing, it will be a give away at breakfasts when 3 couples turn up (and they will on the day you don't want them to) and there is only supposed to be two bedrooms, have no fear, the day that happens, will be the day some GdF regular user and rule expert (not so rare either) spots the deliberate mistake and reports it !

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Good point Gay and it would be a way round it.  I'm not even particularly concerned by Miki's point that people travelling together would by-pass us, as we constantly get asked it we can cater for 8,10 or 12 people, when we clearly state that we have two double rooms, one of which can also cater for up to 3 children.  So I don't think it would particularly deter people from making the enquiries.

My problem is, that I still have a bit of a problem with GdF anyway.  I don't, as Miki seems to think, have a bee in my bonnet about them.  When I first applied to them, although it was in French, their immediate response to, presumably my English name, was that I would have to be able to speak French before I could be accepted, and that was after waiting for goodness knows how long for an initial response from them in the first place.  I now, of course, realise that a long wait time is normal in France but at the time, having been told by our local tourist office that GdF was eager to recruit, I was a little surprised by.

I now find that, although I have been greatly encouraged by our local tourist office, who still claim that GdF are eager to recruit new members, they still have this very laissez faire approach of take it or leave it, no room for negotiation.  So it's just that each time I approach them they have a very bad attitude to their potential customers.  I quite understand that rules is rules, but it's the ATTITUDE that gets me.  They take this great moral high ground and to be quite honest I don't really think they are in a position to do so.   I have been more tha a little disconcerted by the irinspection procedure.  One of my reasons for being eager to join GdF was that French people use it as a benchmark by which they know they will receive a reasonable standard.  However, this lady seemed to be too preoccupied by the size of my rooms.  She didn't check that I had mattress protectors, pillow protectors, that the showers actually WORKED.  She didn't even LOOK inside my kitchen - now that could have been covered in a layer of grease and she would have been none the wiser.  She wasn't interested in how I stored my jams, what I offered for breakfast etc etc.  These are to me the important issues that determine whether somewhere is a) eligble to even be part of the organisation and b) at which level they should be graded.  This is my main reason for now thinking twice about my partnership with them.  As stupid as I think the ruling about the room size seems to be held in such high importance, I could accept it if they were as pedantic about what in terms of cleanliness and hygiene, are much more important criteria.  The perception I had was that if my rooms had been bigger I could have had a 3 epis rating, yet my mattresses may have been dirty and stained, my kitchen could have been filthy, my jams could have had a film of mould over them, none of this was checked and I'm not so sure now that I think that GdF is such a great recommendation of standards if this is the way they judge a property.

And of course, as I said in my initial posting, when I suggested that I would like to join GdF because I may be able to increase my out of season bookings I was told that this was not really likely.  IN season I'm doing pretty well on my own thanks.

Oh, BTW Miki, you suggested that if I was unhappy with my inspector's valuation I could bypass her and go to the director for the departement but from what other people tell me, that is the problem in Manche.  You are absolutely right, this lady's hands are totally tied by the rules that she has to judge by, as set by the director.  As our ex-Maire pointed out, he is a bit of a tartar and makes life pretty difficult for Manche members of the organisation.  Perhaps I can re-apply when he retires

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Hi Coco

You have my sympathy.  I do not wish to get into a slanging match as to the merits of GdF - each person will have their own opinion - but I feel the same as you.  The bathrooms for 2 of our rooms are too small to meet the criteria even though the rooms are OK.  Neither do we have baths - what is this obsession with baths, I would have thought a national organisation might have accepted that showers, provided large enough, would save water if nothing else.  However, the too small rooms were the original 'cabinets' for those bedrooms complete with commode and washstand.  To alter the sizes would have completely destroyed the character of our house so we have arranged everything neatly - wall hung toilets for example - to give an admittedly small but comfortable and attractive en-suite.  However, as you say, not good enough.

Surely the merits of a chambre de hotes should not be size but comfort and quality.  The person I spoke to seemed only concerned with whether we could extra beds in the rooms and said bathrooms would not be big enough for 3 people.  Well as the rooms are for 2 people and we have no intention of piling beds in rooms that seems ridiculous.  We have a family suite for 3 or 4 people and I do not want extra beds everywhere.

I have also had a severe attitude problem from GdF.  I speak fluent French, but again not good enough they were concerned that my husband didn't.  At the end of the day we have decided against, but a bit sadly as we would like to be part of a national organisation.

I am vice-president of our local tourist office and would say that more than half the CdH in our area are NOt with GdF.  This year I have had a large increase in French people booking directly from the internet  and they do not seem any more concerned than the British customers about GdF membership.  I know that this was not so in the past but things are moving on - until recently most French people I knew only travelled outside France with organised groups, but more and more are making their own arrangements and consequently deciding for themselves where they go, and I think this attitude is moving to their French based holidays as well.

I am not against inspection and sensible rules, but do think that the charm of CdH is that they come in all different shapes and sizes and this is in danger of being lost if the licensing organisation really only want purpose built room of a specific size with identikit features.

 

Maggi

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"I do not wish to get into a slanging match as to the merits of GdF - each person will have their own opinion - but I feel the same as you"

Not sure what that means really. The “merits” of GdF can surely only be judged by its members can’t it ? You may not like what it takes to becomes a member and to what it takes to gain what grade of epis but whether it can work (or not) and its merit, can only be judged by the member surely ?

“ The bathrooms for 2 of our rooms are too small to meet the criteria even though the rooms are OK.”

Too small does not in any way mean you cannot join GdF, you will be at least 2 epis but your advertising and text will surmount that small problem, I say it again, we have a good friend who was downgraded to 2 epis, no loss of trade whatsoever ensued.

“Neither do we have baths - what is this obsession with baths, I would have thought a national organisation might have accepted that showers, provided large enough, would save water if nothing else”

I have never seen any rules about having baths ? All our friends with GdF and ourselves have showers, is yours a regional matter ?

“However, the too small rooms were the original 'cabinets' for those bedrooms complete with commode and washstand. To alter the sizes would have completely destroyed the character of our house so we have arranged everything neatly - wall hung toilets for example - to give an admittedly small but comfortable and attractive en-suite. However, as you say, not good enough.

Not good enough for 3 epis maybe but a sure thing for 2 epis though.

"Surely the merits of a chambre de hotes should not be size but comfort and quality. The person I spoke to seemed only concerned with whether we could extra beds in the rooms and said bathrooms would not be big enough for 3 people. Well as the rooms are for 2 people and we have no intention of piling beds in rooms that seems ridiculous. We have a family suite for 3 or 4 people and I do not want extra beds everywhere."

You appear to have a very “strange inspector” being able to put in extra beds is not in any way a valid point in any area I know. They may want to know if you can but as far as judging the place for any Epis rating, it is most certainly not an issue.

“I have also had a severe attitude problem from GdF. I speak fluent French, but again not good enough they were concerned that my husband didn't. At the end of the day we have decided against, but a bit sadly as we would like to be part of a national organisation.

That shocks me to be honest, it really does seem your area is far too rigid, I know of only 6 or 7 other Brits with GdF and I would hazard a guess that half of the partners do not have anything like sufficient French on their own but one partner is pretty good.

Even allowing for their regulations, the features can be vastly different. We know 3 epis places that are actually a chateau, we know another one near the sea that is pretty basic but meets the 3 epis criteria, we know one near a port that is pretty bizarre, to say the least, wonderful ambiance, very clean but is 2 epis, another one near us is 2 epis has no rooms ensuite and is completely different. No the regs do not make clones as far as CdH’s are concerned, they may have similar breakfasts but I have never been to any GdF places that I can honestly say are just like another we have visited and that takes in quite a lot.

There are this year, 1870 or so pages in the GdF National gide book, so as far as changes happening in the business, one thing for sure, GdF keep getting bigger, true some leave but more arrive, I just hope we don’t get too many more around us !!

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"Good point Gay and it would be a way round it. I'm not even particularly concerned by Miki's point that people travelling together would by-pass us, as we constantly get asked it we can cater for 8,10 or 12 people, when we clearly state that we have two double rooms, one of which can also cater for up to 3 children. So I don't think it would particularly deter people from making the enquiries"

Ah but you miss the point about having too many at breakfast ! And have no fear, groups of any number will scour the guide for places to suit their numbers, just because you say you have had others call for room numbers you cannot cope with, you will still be missing a lot more, who do make their searches by the number of actual rooms and people one certainly can take.

GdF are often manned by volunteers and as such, cannot always be immediate in their appointment dates and quickness in visiting. You know that speaking French to a certain standard is required, I have explained it to you before, what good is it, that a French person calls with questions about a CdH and the person on the other end cannot speak back ? Or even at best, only understand every other word ?

“Eager to recruit” does not mean they are standing in their blocks ready to dive out to the very next person who calls. You cannot get in any of the guide books until the following year for a start, so there is no rush there and that of course is the main aim. So with that criteria, perhaps you should not really be surprised that things were not quite up to the speed you thought it might happen at.

"I now find that, although I have been greatly encouraged by our local tourist office, who still claim that GdF are eager to recruit new members, they still have this very laissez faire approach of take it or leave it, no room for negotiation"

So how French is that ? Isn’t that attitude a great part of what attracted so very many Brits to France in the first place ? You see the mistake can be in thinking that holiday France will be just like working in France. It is frustrating but one just has to get inside the heads of the way it all works here, half the time it is maddening, half the time it works, one thing for sure, it isn’t run under the UK rules and again, wasn’t that another reason that folks want to be here? The problem stems basically from the fact that they are not running their regulations logically to you and others (inc me at times)but it is France, so what can one expect !

“So it's just that each time I approach them they have a very bad attitude to their potential customers. I quite understand that rules is rules, but it's the ATTITUDE that gets me. They take this great moral high ground and to be quite honest I don't really think they are in a position to do so”

What moral ground I this ? They simply telling you of the room sizes regs now in force with their dept. Please can you explain how you “really think they are not in a position to do so”?

".....I have been more than a little disconcerted by the inspection procedure. One of my reasons for being eager to join GdF was that French people use it as a benchmark by which they know they will receive a reasonable standard. However, this lady seemed to be too preoccupied by the size of my rooms....................."

I will say that I am pretty sure may not have been an inspection as such, this was more like a pre grading visit. You say she did not check these things, then it is my considered view that she was just looking at your place at your request for membership, at your requestthey will come back with a more intense approach if you are serious about joining. Did she for instance, sit down and write all the grading points in her book for each room etc, this takes time and you would have seen her do all that. The forms that they fill in is normally given in the dossier you receive to join GdF, spo that you can see what points she is going to grade you on?

What you seem to overlook once again, is something that I have said before, you are inspected by "every" guest you have, if any one of those guests does not like what they see, they can and will write or call to GdF in your region. I have said it before, we are graded not just by our GdF inspectors but by the hundreds of guests one has through the door annually.

Those people without membership for the most part, often have lovely places but out there in France are hundreds of dirty, dismal and horrible places, this way, for the far greater part, one can expect some standard of accommodation and if it is not, the client can soon write off to GdF with their view about that place, that cannot be said of individual places and it is that fact that the French know only too well and what sets graded places against the “chancy” affair of booking with a non compliant B&B.

Whether that is correct does not enter the equation, it is a fact that the French still want some standard that they hope will probably give them what they seek and that is a decent CdH having been graded.

“And of course, as I said in my initial posting, when I suggested that I would like to join GdF because I may be able to increase my out of season bookings I was told that this was not really likely. IN season I'm doing pretty well on my own thanks”

I certainly disagree from our perspective, we do very well out of season through GdF but if you are told you will not, then simply, why bother to join anyway ?

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Even allowing for their regulations, the features can be vastly different.

That's fine, if one chooses a CdH one is not looking for a hotel chain style cloned room and therefore I wouldn't expect that in EVERY 3 epis place I went to I would find exactly the same facilities.  What I WOULD expect is a certain degree of comfort, cleanliness and bathroom facilities.

We know 3 epis places that are actually a chateau, we know another one near the sea that is pretty basic but meets the 3 epis criteria, we know one near a port that is pretty bizarre, to say the least, wonderful ambiance, very clean but is 2 epis, another one near us is 2 epis has no rooms ensuite and is completely different.

But this is my point EXACTLY.  I thought the whole point of a grading system was so that people could know what to expect.  I don't know how the minds of the inspectors/organisers work, but from a purely personal point of view, if I were searching for somewhere to stay I would first of all look at the key as to what each level offered as a minimum.  I would expect that a 1 epis, key, crown, star, whatever symbol the organisation cares to use would indicate that somewhere has reached a certain standard but may be pretty basic and may have shared facilities for example.  I would expect a 4-whatever to be of extreme comfort and luxury and a 2 and 3 to be fairly similar, but perhaps a little more comfort in a 3 epis.  SO.... if there is a place by the sea that is also a 3 epis and yet "pretty basic"  I would be extremely disappointed to discover this on arrival.  Yet how would I know that from their advertising?  And what justifies them having a 3 epis if this is the case?  From the guidelines that I was given it seems that the criteria mean you would have to be a lot more than "pretty basic" to warrant 3 epis.

Ultimately, I have no problem with GdF and would have quite liked to go with them.  However, as Maggi points out, more and more people are turning to the internet rather than using the GdF book as their bible, so I think the right route for me is to just spend more money on internet advertising and signage.  I couldn't agree more with Miki's comments that if you don't pay out for decent marketing you won't get a decent return.

 

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"....Even allowing for their regulations, the features can be vastly different.That's fine, if one chooses a CdH one is not looking for a hotel chain style cloned room and therefore I wouldn't expect that in EVERY 3 epis place I went to I would find exactly the same facilities. What I WOULD expect is a certain degree of comfort, cleanliness and bathroom facilities"

Can't get to grips with why that was brought that up ? When the place is inspected properly for membership, cleanliness will be judged and you will be told if it is not acceptable, after joining other inspections will be undertaken, mostly by guests and as I have repeatedly said, who inspects the private B&B ? Clean and comforable as it may be, it is still a chancy affair for some, not all but a fair amount. And that is why membership of GdF is at least far better for many, than the ungraded CdH. Comfort for you may be hell for another guest. I dislike olde worlde charm for the greater part, I detest knick knacks and horse brasses ect others love all that, I don’t like tatty dark beams, I love light Oak, others disagree. We all expect a form of comfort to one degree or another, cleanliness, of course, so I am not at all sure what you mean ?

“But this is my point EXACTLY. I thought the whole point of a grading system was so that people could know what to expect.”

Yes and they expect what the guide book says, size of rooms, comfortable beds, a decent breakfast and whatever else is written for that grading. “Epis do not have anything to do with being less comfortable, you have seen for yourself by your own house pre- grading what one might expect !! Don’t mix your version of basic up with what it often means. When I state "basic" for the place by the sea, it has all quality fittings, marvellous showers and a brilliant outlook. It is minimal and basic, it has all the criteria needed for 3 epis and I can promise you, you would swap with them without a second thought and would return again if you were a guest.

How does anyone know all this you say? Well it is quite obvious I would have thought. You talk now about going on the internet to get bookings, well like many places now that want to get as good a business as they can, they have a website and it is all on there for the world to read and see!!

Those that don’t have websites you will have to just take their word when you call, or read their advert and see what they can offer, get a recommendation or leave it and look further afield but I will say again, you cannot judge what you see as comfortable etc as the criteria for everyone. We have had people stay with us who have loved it and return regularly, we have had a couple who said the farm was too noisy next door, we have one say the farm smelt, we have had many guests who have said how lovely it was that a working farm was right next door. We have people ask for certain rooms beacuse the beds ands shower are to their liking (we don't like to tell them that most mattresses are the same and taking a blindfolded shower, they would never know what room they were in !!) The point being, one cannot be all things to all men and the same goes for ALL CdH’s.

For instance, there are some wonderful places on the Ile de Ré that are very basic B&B’s, the only basic thing are the places, the prices are far from that! It is what some people want and although basic, items within are of a high quality.

I can only reiterate, there are 1800 plus pages in the National guide, for many folk in the membership and in the book, feel it is OK and you do not. How you wish it all could happen is for you, it is not probably, how the huge majority see it all.

And guess what, many of our French clients find us on the GdF website ! As far as a guide book is concerned, it will still be about for a very long time in the future. I remember very well, back in the late 90’s when John Smith sold Chez Nous, how loads of people said that the brochure was finished and the “net” was taking over, well that is far, far from the truth for many gite owners who advertise in the brochure…but yes to a point (and we have been a huge winner, thanks in no small way to the internet) the net is the way forward but you tell me which websites are any good for solely B&B and I will show you many more that are total rubbish ! The choice of good sites is quite small and my thoughts are that only specialised B&B sites offer any real chance of consistent bookings.

It has always been the same, it does not take rocket science to seek a place and fill it for the high season, the thing one really has to do, is to find a place in a region and in a position that will also give you good shoulder season taking and some decent out of season bookings. Otherwise the place is not going to offer enough income for one to survive on, without other means being available.

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Just got a spare 30 mins and have not been able to answer before and have to say I have only half read some of the responses due to time.

When we were inspected, as I mentioned before, they took the place apart, even turn a mattress over. Wanted to see our breakfast menu (keep them talking Pat I go knock one up on the computer) check the prep area and the fridges and freezers used by or for guests. Even asked to see our different coloured plastic chopping boards (different colours for meats, fish, veg, cooked meats etc) and told us to throw the wooden ones away or not use them for the guests (not hygienic).

Any way they measured the rooms and one was .5Msq under sized. The answer, well we can't include this room with GDF. I asked if I can advertise the room in media other than GDF and was told no problem. So if I was you I would remove the room as far as GDF is concerned. We did come across this before when we stayed in a GDF place up north, we were told that the room we were staying in was not covered by GDF as it was to small although it was ample big enough for us.

As Miki says it does differ from area to area and it depends on the peoples interpretation of the rules but then it's France and thats how it works with just about everything. In case you wonder which area we come under it's Carcassonne.

As for them being slow, well we are not even on the website yet, have not received our logo for the website or the panel for our gates even though they promised to sort all this by late July. Why did we join, well we had to to advertise here and to be honest it's all well and good you telling people how good you are (and I am sure yours is lovely place) but it's really nice to have an official 'body' say it's nice, sort of boosts your ego a bit. I am however realistic and only time will tell what business it will bring to my door but then I have always looked to the distant future i.e. 2 or 3 years a head and not to next week so I don't expect immediate results (except for a hole in my bank account and no publicity).

There is of course other routes open to you that are cheaper, theres Clevacances and BNB France. The latter is commercial and gets you in to just as many books as GDF. The question is is if they are the right books. Try asking your none French guests what books they buy in their countries to find B&B's in France. These days the AA (which is 3 epis and above GDF places) is not so commonly used, in fact we have seen more Thomas Cook and Allister Sawdey books around. Thomas Cook is one of the many BNB books sold world wide. Clevacances is a lot cheaper, quite strong on the inspections and used by many departments, in fact I think there are only eleven that don't use them. They however don't publish outside France but then it's only 25€ per room per year to be a member.

The big thing I am interested in is the after care service you get from GDF. They say they do this and that but do they really and do they move at the same speed as the rest of France either dead slow or stop but we will see.

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