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how much you are allowed to earn


lorry
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Just when i thought i had got my head around setting up a b&b,  i  have now been told that if i earn more than 1750 euros a year, then i must register as a professional.

Is this true i thought i just had too declare my tax.

Anybody explain this too AGAIN.

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I don't know that there's a set limit but the guideline is that if the B&B is your main source of income, you need to register. It's not big money - about 50€ should cover it.

When you do get operational, don't forget to add yourself to www.ourinns.org which lists the places of most of the regular contributors to this forum. It's free.

 

Arnold

 

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Thanks for that. I forgot to add that it is only 2 rooms i shall be having that is why the sum of 1750 quoted. This info came from a friend of a freind who had been to a notaire for the info.

Where do you reg at & is it a one off payment of 50 euros ?

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You do it at the Chambre of Commerce or rather the Gref (not sure of the spelling) which may be in the same building depending on the size of the place. As far as I know, it's basically a one-off sum to get you registered as a business with them but you need to pay for extra copies of the registration document itself (the KBIS).

With the KBIS you can get a card for the cash & carry which is quite handy and the KBIS lets you open a business bank account which might be useful too. More to the point, it gets you into the French health & social security system which brings bills but at least if you need to go to the doctor you're covered (the e111 forms all expire this December so you could find yourself with no cover quite soon).

 

Arnold

 

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Arnold far be it from me, to not say don't help anyone but that confused me and I know what you are on about !

First do a search about it all, then after ask specific questions. It is a lot of work to do it legally or even semi legal(don't ask !)and also long winded, which is probably why none of us have flown in to tell you how to go about it all and from what you have posted, you need a lot of help.

Lorry, please use search then perhaps ask Q's is my advice unless someone wants to write an essay !

If you want to register just two bedrooms, then you will be in for one hell of a shock when all the cotisations come in, I would not reccommend that route, be warned.

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Indeed Miki, must remember not to dash off the replies just before tea!

Simple route... go to the Chambre of Commerce and say you'd like to register your Chambre d'Hote. As Miki hints at, it's a big form. A very big form.

I know that it will be pretty expensive for a 2 room place, Miki, but is there an alternative? If your only form of employment here is that, how else do you get yourself into the health & social security system? It's OK if you're retired, as there are schemes to deal with getting you into the French systems but not any that I know of if you're actually working.

One thing that will cut the first year's bills somewhat is a letter to the URSAAF once you receive their bill for 3000€ to tell them what you have actually earned so far. I gather that just about everyone sends them a cheque for 3000€ but a letter cuts their bill down to a couple of hundred. Some way down the road for yourself though.

 

Arnold

 

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THANKS FOR INFO MIKI & ARNOLD, CONFUSION ,CONFUSION

BUT THOUGHT I WOULD THROW SOME MORE INTO THE POT. I HAVE HEALTH COVER FROM U.K. FOR ANOTHER 2 YEARS,& TOP UP INSURANCE HERE.

DOES THIS MAKE LIFE ANY EASIER FOR ME MEANWHILE???????

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Lorry,

You say "another" two years (so that's an E106 is it, if so I always though the max was "up to" 2 years and yours has started ? or perhaps another "E" something else ?)

Having all that simply means you have legal health cover, it does not in itself mean you can still work here in France, what you have, if it is an E106, is health cover for two years not the ability to go out and simply work, just because you have health cover.

PM sent.

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Going back a few steps, I think we'd need more info on your situation to give anything like a complete (if such is possible) answer.

For instance, if you are retired (for which read "over 65") then what you need to do is different from what you'd need to do if you are employed here, self-employed here or a farmer here (excluding combinations like being over 65 and employed etc.).

Getting into the tax & social security side of things is separate from the issue of health cover, but related to it. If you register as a business, all the forms drop through your letter box in the month or two following the registration as presumably is the case if you start working for someone here.

 

Arnold

 

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Good idea.

I'd recommend keeping in regular touch with a few not too local B&Bs as we find it very useful to have a look at how other people are doing things. There's almost always something that we adopt as a result of getting together with a similar place.

I say "not too close" as it tends to restrict what you'll say if you're talking to a place just next door: direct competitors can't really share experiences quite so freely. The best contact we've found is a broadly similar place about 2 hours from here. It's far enough away that we're not competitors yet close enough to call in now and again. They're even in a similar enough location to make comparisons useful.

Don't forget to submit your details to www.ourinns.org when you're about ready to start operations. Free to list and it has most of the regular contributors to this forum.

 

Arnold

 

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Hi, you could also ask at your local tax office.  Ours has been a mine of info.  I was told after I registered that it wasn't necessary.  If you don't register there must be a way of joining the health system if you are a traviller independant.  Ask loads of questions, the french won't give you info unless you ask the questions.

 

good luck

 

J  

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True enough, but the problem we've found is that often we don't know that there's a question we need to ask and if we do know, we don't know who to ask!

I suspect that if don't need to register because your income is too low, you'd get picked up by CPAM directly but you would probably need to register with them in some way and perhaps also with the social security people for pension and other purposes.

 

Arnold

 

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Firstly Lorry,

I sent you a PM on how to go about it some while ago. I have just looked it up and it appears you have not opened it up or read it. Somewhere to the right and somewhere near the top of your screen you will see :

Control Panel | Recent Topics | Active Topics |Popular Topics in that lot you should find "Unread Messsage" click on that.

If not I will send you it again but in my control panel it says it has been sent to you but that it is "unread".

Secondly, please do NOT believe all what the French fonctionaires tell you. After a few years experience you might start to know what answers are correct and what they ones they are actually guessing at ! Keep knocking on the doors and eventually you may be lucky enough to get the right answer or, at least the one you want to hear !!

I am afraid to say it Arnold but it does not work quite like that. As for asking the tax office, I quite agree BUT only for anything to do with tax.

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It does work like that for the CPAM Miki as we needed to do that when we came here initially as we weren't registered 'til a month after we arrived but needed health cover in that period 'cos Wendy was several months pregnant. The reason that it works is that under European freedom of movement law, France is obliged to cover you (assuming that you're a European citizen) and CPAM in France is the outfit that is landed with that obligation normally when you're not registered; if you're registered, it will be the health organisation that covers you.

The same laws apply to the social security side of things (in the UK definition of that term) ie things like Child Benefit and whatnot. We registered directly with them very easily although by then we were registered as a commercant here. You need a letter from, in our case, Child Benefit in the UK to say that they've stopped paying you. The UK will cover you for up to, normally, three months after you leave.

Pensions are a bit different as they're not fully covered by European law yet. There are some obligations on France re mutual recognition of schemes but mainly in the area of state pensions. If memory serves, you get paid your "state pension" by the country that you last worked in and the years that you worked in other countries are counted by them in calculating the amount due to you. It's a bit more iffy on company/private pensions as they work quite differently  in the UK but they are also covered in some areas eg if you have a private pension in the UK before you leave then France can't oblige you to join their "obligatoire" scheme (so long as you're continuing with the UK scheme obviously).

Yes, I know I'm quoting European law again Miki but all the above are implemented in various French laws.

See, for example, http://europa.eu.int/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/factsheets/eu/socialsecurity/equaltreatment/en.html

 

Arnold

 

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Let’s start at the beginning Arnold.

Arnold said “ ….I know that it will be pretty expensive for a 2 room place, Miki, but is there an alternative?”

Yes there is.

"....If your only form of employment here is that, how else do you get yourself into the health & social security system? "

You go down to CPAM, especially if you have an E106 or some other E number

You will find that no one in most depts will need to register a two bedroom place and as I have said before on here, there is absolutely no way any couple can live on the proceeds of a 2 roomed B&B. So either Lorry has other means, e.g Pension, hubbie or her with a trade they plan to use, that way having their cotisations with one of their organisations or savings and interest (slightly grey area then for gaining health cover at CPAM)

Now I say CPAM but of course it will invariably be the CMU (and payments to them are through URSSSAF)for persons who need health cover and have no other way, such as through, a business, trade or profession etc or of course actually retired etc.

“…..It's OK if you're retired, as there are schemes to deal with getting you into the French systems but not any that I know of if you're actually working”

See above

“…One thing that will cut the first year's bills somewhat is a letter to the URSAAF once you receive their bill for 3000€ to tell them what you have actually earned so far. I gather that just about everyone sends them a cheque for 3000€ but a letter cuts their bill down to a couple of hundred.”

Not strictly true and please don’t believe all you hear !!

Arnold next post “…If you register as a business, all the forms drop through your letter box in the month or two following the registration as presumably is the case if you start working for someone here.”

Yes, quite correct.

"....I suspect that if don't need to register because your income is too low, you'd get picked up by CPAM directly but you would probably need to register with them in some way and perhaps also with the social security people for pension and other purposes."

You will not necessarily get “picked up”. If you want to get healthcare, you will need to do the footwork yourself. There are many folks who live here and do work and have no doubt, in any many cases, no one even knows they are here. CPAM are part of the social security by the way Arnold.

I know all about what is in your last post Arnold and it had no bearing at all on what I said before.

You made yourself known, you did not sit back and get “picked up”, just like family allowance, you have to do it all yourself. Arnold sorry to repeat this but we have “been there” had 3 kids go all or part way through the whole way of life inc schooling here. Been through just about every dept governmental building that we needed to, not just for us but many other Brits, spoke to just about very kind of person dealing with anything and so on.

I learned an awful lot from my first ever proper job here, helping communicate between Brits and the French . And one thing hasn’t changed one iota in all that time, people come here without a clue in many cases but, often I have found, they learn one or two things and bosh….”experts all” and that is where we had to step in and all too often it is very difficult to sit them down and explain that what they are saying is not strictly true and that they have mixed it up a little and need to see it from another angle.

Some will listen but as in life, there are those whose mentality will not allow them to believe they have “got the wrong end of the stick” but believe me, those are how the stories start in pubs and lunches all over France…send 3 and six we’re going to a dance and all that…………………………..oh those chinese whispers eh !

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“…One thing that will cut the first year's bills somewhat is a letter to the URSAAF once you receive their bill for 3000€ to tell them what you have actually earned so far. I gather that just about everyone sends them a cheque for 3000€ but a letter cuts their bill down to a couple of hundred.”

Not strictly true and please don’t believe all you hear !!


I don't believe all I hear but everyone that has spoken about it to me at all (both French & English) has received a bill for 3000€ from URSAAF once they registered their business. All of those have just paid it. I sent a letter and the bill dropped to several hundred euro (ie the minimum payment).

You will not necessarily get “picked up”. If you want to get healthcare, you will need to do the footwork yourself. There are many folks who live here and do work and have no doubt, in any many cases, no one even knows they are here. CPAM are part of the social security by the way Arnold.

By "picked up" I meant "dealt with" by CPAM. As I said at the outset, I was using UK definitions and in the UK CPAM is part of what, in the UK, would be the Health Service than a part of the Social Services. As an example of the confusion this can cause, the social security number in France is issued by the "health department" (ie CPAM) rather than the "social security department" (ie CAF).

We weren't "picked up" by CPAM at all. In fact they refused to deal with us completely at first. Despite the fact that Wendy was 3 or 4 months pregnant, they were quite insistent that we had no cover nor any right to any cover in France and were basically told to *** off. In practice, it took six months before they finally agreed that they were legally obliged to give us cover which, if you add it up, meant that John was actually born by then! That in turn caused considerable aggravation in the hospital accounts department who had never ever come across this situation before. Or, in short, reactions can be very, very different when you're living in an area that has a very low number of resident brits.

 

Arnold

 

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  • 1 month later...

One question. as yet unanswered on this subject.If you register with the C.d.C. Your house then becomes a Commerce.When:and if: you decide to sell, a portion of the profit [ increase in property value] then becomes liable to a pretty hefty tax,according to one Notaire 25% of the profit on the part not used for your own habitation, ie.let. We are still trying to find out if it is necessary to register with the C.d.C, It seems to vary with who you ask.H.d.I. /Mairie or anyone else. The main thing ,to save the Guillotine seemsto be to make sure you declare the income.

Has anyone else fallen foul of this tax when selling? I imagine you only find out when the Notaire hands your cheque over!!!

Regards.Nr. St.Malo.

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The tax to which you refer is actually 27% - 16% 'plus value' (capital gains tax) plus a further 11% social charges. It is payable on profit made on sale of property other than your principal residence in France. So how the bit that is not part of your principal residence is valued will be open to all sorts of interpretations, particularly if you have had the place converted yourself. Against the tax you can claim various legal etc expenses, and offset tradesmen's bills (TVA-registered French artisans only) or a standard capital allowance for maintenance. Also, after 5 years of ownership the tax liability decreases, up to 15  years of ownership when it becomes zero.

All in all, it is probably better to avoid registering as a business if at all possible if you envisage the possibility of selling up in the near future.

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William ,please correct me if I'm wrong and I often am.The tax I believe you are referring to is the C.G.Tax that applies to any gain on a second home.If it is your main home and you have made 2 years of tax returns in France , I believe,or have been led to believe, that the main home was exempt from C.G.T.

The tax I was referring to is a tax on the sale of a house registered as a commercial premises, ie.B&B registered with the C.d.C. The Notaire we contacted in St.Malo informed me that although  we were now out of the C.G.T if we sold ,we would still come in for the 25% [definately 25% the figure quoted ] on the rise in property value of the part let. In our case his office worked this out to the region of 25.000E. He actually advised us to de-register and not trade for a complete tax year. I may add I asked to have an assurance , in writing, that after the said year, the tax would not be payable. Still waiting for that.

As we have now de-registered and may sell this house, without any business goodwill etc, I did wonder how they,the H.d I. would ever know!!!

I think in future I will sign all letters.Confused.Nr.St.Malo.

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You are not wrong. I was referring to capital gains tax, though I believe I am correct in saying that in France, as in Britain, it applies to all sorts of gains, not only those resulting from sales of second homes.

The part of your building which is not your main home, on which you have paid taxe professionelle and enjoyed benefits offset against taxes, cannot suddenly revert to being your main home again in order to avoid tax on disposal. It may well be possible to close a business and retain the premises, without trading, for a year and thus re-absorb the premises into your main house. There may indeed be other taxes payable as a result of selling such premises; I have not heard of these before but am not an accountant or notaire. France certainly does not have any shortage of fees and taxes apparently designed to prevent people starting, running, and closing businesses.

So I will leave those who are professionally qualified, or who have sold business premises in France, to give a definitive answer. Until then I regret that we both may have to remain confused, although I suspect you may have answered your own question by getting specific information about your situation from a notaire. [:)]

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