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There is apparently a new form of will.....


mint
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which allows you to pass your chattels and what-have-you to whomever you wish if you are British but has property in France?

This was told me by a recently widowed woman who assured me that her husband had left a will leaving her their jointly owned home and that she had consulted a notaire about it.

I doubt this greatly but only on the basis that my long-term understanding is that an "English" will does indeed allow you to leave what you own in the UK to a person or persons of your choice but that a French "bien" has to be willed according to French inheritance law.

So is there indeed a new form of will of which I know nothing?  Please, if you have info on this, would you please share?  Thanks.

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It's been the case for a while that you can opt to leave property you own another country (ie in one of the many countries who signed up to this scheme) in accordance with the national law of your own native country rather than the country where you live/where your assets fixed and otherwise are.

The potential gotcha is that whilst as a Brit you can leave your French property to your char lady or your fancy woman or whoever, French succession tax still applies. So your char lady or your fancy woman, as non blood relatives, would be whacked for inheritance tax.

Your widow friend will be fine because there is no French inheritance taxes between spouses in any case.

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But the children?  Do you not have to apportion to them their share and they can inherit x amount before taxes kick in?

She said she did not have to have her children's agreement before selling the house? I understood that this used to delay the sale of property if one or all of the other beneficiaries do not agree?

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If you opt to use UK succession law then you don't have to leave your children anything if you don't want to because under UK law there is no such thing as protected heirs. Literally you could disinherit your entire family and leave everything to a non relative.

Forget all about French succession law and protected heirs and alt that because none of it doesn't apply if her hubby opted to use a UK will. Only the taxes apply.

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We have made wills under these provisions.  Did it with a notaire and thus bypass French inheritance laws and adhere to the wishes of our UK wills. We did it over a year ago.

On the point made about you can disinherit your family, that is so for England but under Scottish law, if it were to apply to anyone on here, if your estate is above a certain amount, £350,000 seems to ring a bell, you cannot totally disinherit your children.

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This is a very good explanation

https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/inheritance/planning/european-succession

The French will can be handwritten and does not require a witness. It needs to include mention of EU regulation no. 650/2012 of 4 July2012 and choosing the succession under English/Scottish rules.

You can leave to who ever you want but the taxes (for all but UK property) will be paid under the French inheritance rules so can be up to 60%. Even siblings might be taxed at up to 45%

https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/inheritance/taxes/liability/

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While my opinion makes no difference to the legal position I do feel that it is extraordinarily arrogant of British people to wish to impose UK law on property in another country, rather than accepting its rules.

If Brexit was about "taking back control" from Europe, surely France should be able to control her own property and succession?

Who spoke of 'having cake and eating it' ?

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It is not specific to the UK and France.

It is European legislation and it was agreed by most EU countries in 2012 their citizens could decide on their inheritance administration. And there is the possibility of challenge by a country.

from https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/family/inheritances/planning-inheritance/index_en.htm

EU rules on inheritance do not apply in Denmark , Ireland and the UK. If your heirs decide to settle your inheritance with an authority in these countries, your choice of law may not be taken into account. However, Danish, Irish and British citizens can benefit from these EU rules and choose the law of their nationality for their inheritance if this is handled in an EU country other than Denmark, Ireland and the UK.

The authority of the EU country that handles your inheritance or succession can refuse to apply certain provisions of the law of your nationality if they are contrary to local public policy. For example, authorities could refuse to apply provisions if these discriminate between heirs based on their sex or on whether they were born in or out of wedlock.

Don't forget, as the inheritance will be taxed according to the country of residence, the country inheritance laws could have an influence on the contents of a will.
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Thanks again, pomme, for your further explanations.  However, I don't think for one minute that the widowed lady I wrote about would for one minute thank me for telling her all this.

After all, it took me several minutes to explain what a bon de transport was for and how to obtain one and indeed to explain the procedure for changing the recently departed's consultant mostly all of which advice she didn't follow, she would certainly refuse to take all this on board.  Some things are best left to the individual to find out for themselves.

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It is not arrogant, just that so much of french inheritance laws seem very unfair................... AND for the likes of me, who returned to native shores, found that much of UK inheritance law is also very very unfair!!!

Frankly, good sense says that we could do with something mid channel, as both systems have good things associated with them. But that will helas never happen.

When we first moved to France, there was not what I considered proper protection for a spouse, one had to be on top of it all to get it right. AND I heard horror stories, nothing to do with les etrangers but french families with absolute nightmare stories of inheritance going awry.

As mentioned the lack of proper protection for the spouse, was yet another reason why we did not want to spend our dotage in France. And even though things are a lot better, I would not be very happy about the inheritance laws there if we moved back.

And a footnote a senior avocat at the Tribunal d'Instance  told me that my 'anglo saxon' views on the particular law I had gone to see him about was very very arrogant, as I questioned what he had told me, which I had imagined, could surely not be correct. That the particular law in question completely lacked humanity and justice, bof, no justice at all, had no effect on him at all, head held high, as the french are so good at, he announced, that french law should not be questioned. And that signaled that the conversation over, a curt nod and 'Madame' as I was expected to leave, which I did, sobbing.

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My point is that each country has its laws, and to wish to impose those of somewhere else over them just because it suits you is typical of a certain type of colonial thinking often found among 'ex-pat' Brits.

Imagine the outcry  if  someone from a Middle Eastern country wished to live under Sharia law in the UK....

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Well said Norman. Indeed the British decided to leave the EU because they don't want people making their laws for them. Perhaps the EU countries that have agreed to all this may decide not to continue recognising this next year. Every country has the right to repeal laws or to stop recognising the laws of others.

The thinking is very colonial. Made a few of us laugh when the UK said it was sending the navy to sort out those pesky French fishermen who were getting a bit lippy. As one newspaper here said have the British run out of rivers now to send their gun boats up.

Merry Christmas by the way and lets hope a much better new year.
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This is not an agreement between the UK and the rest of the EU.

This is an EU law implemented by the EU countries. European law has precedence over national laws and member states cannot pass national laws that contradict EU laws.

It is an arrangement for an EU resident in one EU country to request the application of the succession laws of their home country in their will. The exceptions are the UK, Ireland, and Denmark where the country of residence laws are applicable regardless of citizenship. But citizens of those three countries living in another EU country still have the choice.

The article I mentioned above used someone from Ireland in France as an example and, on another page, someone from Poland in Germany.
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I think while much negative comment about the UK, the British and Brexit is fully justified, this particular EU regulation permitting EU residents to adopt the succession laws of the country of their birth rather than those of their country of residence has nothing to do with the UK, or Brexit, or colonialisation, or whatever, as pomme has already said. The option would be there for any resident of France, irrespective of their country of birth (it could be Brazil, Thailand, Australia, or wherever...). Not everyone believes in forced inheritance, nor wants the State to dictate who should inherit their wordly goods, so if your birth country does things differently and the law in France permits you to adopt those birth country succession laws, it gives you a choice. In my opinion, that can only be a good thing.
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 NH, expat views? anglo saxon views? Well I am going to disagree with you very STRONGLY about that.

There are values that one would hope should be universal, and usually cultures and their religions, all male dominated........that simply do not want this happening.

Here is an example of some of the stupid paperasse I had to deal with when I ran an association in France.

On these rather official forms that the parents had to fill in, it stated that the HEAD OF THE HOUSEHOLD, had to sign and that meant the man!!!! this was in the late 1980's when I first encountered this.

So, in came the ladies, usually rushing in from work to sign their child up with our association and then instead of it all being done and dusted, would leave with the paper work for their 'master' to sign, and would come back the next inscription day.

Me, well, how on earth could I even believe that a child's mother was not 'fit' to sign for their own child. I was not nasty with anyone, I would be very gently, explaining that my belief was that they were as responsible for their own child as the father was and I could see no reason on earth why they should not sign.

Some did, some panicked at this dissent which they thought bordering on civil disobedience taking the papers with them, duly signed by their lord and master!

I discussed this with a good friend, her kids were not members of the  association I helped run, but it was September and her children were joining other things. Next time I saw her, she rather shyly told me that for the first time, she had signed as head of the household. And she seemed rather proud.

You see, it does not matter where you are, there are some things that are simply wrong and it doesn't matter where you are from, when you see things that are simply not right/ injust, I will NEVER believe in simply ignoring it and keeping my mouth shut.

Remember Saligo Bay's post, she had a friend who's baby's father had beaten her up. The gendarmes came, did not arrest him, took her to a place of safety and handed the baby to the perp!  There is something very wrong with that, and I hope, the law has changed. Although it hadn't when a friend of mine was attacked by her husband, he was simply classed as a bit of a naughty boy.

Still I will add that a number of years after I saw an avocat, I mentioned, at the Tribunal d'Instance, french law did change a little, not a lot, but compared to how it was, a great improvement never the less.

And sharia law, well, back to male dominated religious views again, like most of them. So yes, I am very much against the very idea of any religion dictating laws.

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[quote user="Cathar Tours"]  .................................... Made a few of us laugh when the UK said it was sending the navy to sort out those pesky French fishermen who were getting a bit lippy. As one newspaper here said have the British run out of rivers now to send their gun boats up.......................................................  .[/quote]

My, what a marvellous sense of humour you Germans have.

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"This is not an agreement between the UK and the rest of the EU.

This is an EU law implemented by the EU countries. European law has

precedence over national laws and member states cannot pass national

laws that contradict EU laws."

But the UK has left the EU, yet some British people wish to allow UK law to take precedence over French law...

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This is an EU law implemented by the EU countries. Most EU countries have decided to implement it. It will be up to them to make the changes it if they don't want UK law to take precedence over their succession law. There is nothing the UK can opt out of.

They probably aren't too concerned though as the taxes continue to be paid according to the country of residence. It is just the inheritors can be different from a particular country. But each EU country have their own rules of succession rules and inheritance taxes.

Even France has made several significant changes old Succession law based on the Napoleonic Code in the last hundred years or so.

If a French person resident in the UK dies, they don't have any Brussels IV choice and their mobile assets would be taxed according to UK country laws. But the English/Welsh (I do not know the detail of Scottish inheritance) succession rules are more liberal and they would not have any constraints compared to French succession (and might even welcome the ability to leave an inheritance to even a fairly close relative which might otherwise be taxed punitively in France).
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I found the will writing formalities in France to be surprisingly straightforward for my circumstances.

I wrote out my will - in French - signed and dated it (no witnesses required) and emailed a copy to the local notaire. She responded a couple of days later to say she had read it, that it did what I required and was a perfectly valid will in France for my French property.

Job done - at no cost.

As in the UK though, much depends on your situation. Complex assets or complex family situations would most likely call for professional involvement/drafting.
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