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legal stance, what to do...??


Susie
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[quote user="Anton Redman"]Most of the above explains why I prefer to stay in the worst/cheapest/shodiest  French  hotels rather than  British owned C de H. If you would prefer people to be no shows rather than turn up at 1 am then that is your choice but you should make it totally clear on your website and expect to loose the business.

The attitudes to hospitality expounded above explain why we hunted long and hard for a cattery which was French owned .

Personally I would  rather negotiate with dogs for sleeping space than buy something from you.

.....

My view is that if you want to make somebodies 'day' even worse at 11 pm after a couple of problems beyound their contriol that is fine but you should not be running a hotel or C d H.

[/quote]

I'm sure that most B&B owners would rather that the rude bastards who think it's okay to turn up hours late, or in the middle of the night, especially without the courtesy of a phone call to let them know, bog off to the nearest Campanile or F1.  Such arrrogant and selfish guests can piss right off elsewhere as far as I'm concerned. You'll also be lucky to get a hotel to open up to you after 11.00pm.

I know many French B&B owners and their attitudes to selfish, rude bastards is exactly the same as that of British B&B owners here.

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Susie - re. the meals thing, tell them to sue and be damned.  You don't need them.

[quote user="Quillan"]

I

think the grading thing may be regional then (I think we have been down

this route before, something about how much the membership fees differ

from one area to another) or perhaps they allow those who registered

ages ago to continue. Certainly in our area it's a no no now. As to

grading, well in theory it should be the same but as you know the

bureaucracy in France is open to whoever interprets it and each regions

interpretation can be quite different to another even though the

written word is the same.

[/quote]

Fact remains that GdF's own regs do not require ensuite.  Fees from one region to another have absolutely nothing to do with it.  Just for the record:

For 1 Epis the requirement is that for up to six persons you need a shower room or bathroom for the exclusive use of your guests; for more than 6 guests you need a second bathroom.

For 2 Epis the shower/bathroom for each room has to be private to each bedroom, but does not have to be en suite (communiquante).

For 3 and 4 Epis the shower/bathroom for each room has to be en suite to each bedroom.

These are national rules.  There are no such thing as local rules.  If the local office tries to say different it is wrong - you can complain to the national office.  Don't be a wuss and don't take any bullshit and don't believe everything you are told - not least here.

EDIT /

This GdF ruling may well change if the phrase "Chaque chambre d'hôte donne accès à une salle d'eau et à un WC" in the recent decret is interpreted as "giving directly onto" rather than simply "leading to" - like across a corridor.

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/WAspad/UnTexteDeJorf?numjo=ECER0759563D

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Hello Benjie!

No, I just thought one or two points needed correcting by Miss Strict. Do you want to feel the lash of my whip?  We don't charge for extras (though we leave a box for pourboires at the exit - God help you if you fail to contribute).

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Cassis, thankyou for spelling out what we accommodation providers feel, yet cannot express infront of our guests.

Anton, we work bloody hard for our money. And, as self-employed people, we reserve the damn right to call the shots as regards to OUR working conditions. If we want to close at 10pm why should we not? We are up at sunrise, in winter in the pitch black, so why the hell should we sit up after midnight waiting for rude ignorant people (like the type you approve of) just because they have explicitly ignored the terms and conditions under which they have booked?. Yes, we prefer to charge a 'no show' at 11pm than sit up until god knows how long to open the door to an overtired and cranky group of people. Who, then, will disturb all the other sleeping guests by clumping up and down the stairs with luggage and talking and opening and shutting doors until they settle down themselves finally?. We have tolerated this before and have decided to no longer put up with it. It is not fair on us and especially our other guests. If you are travelling late at night and encounter problems...for gods sake stop wherever you are for the night!. Why drive on for another 4/5 hours!!. Im sorry, but if you wish a 24 hour concierge then stay at, and pay for, a five star establishment...not a 2 star place. We do not advertise such a service so why do folk expect it?.

OK, how about I come to YOUR house? Shall we say I arrive at 8pm?...sorry I REALLY mean 2am. Couldn't be bothered to call you and tell you I would be late.  Of course you will be in bed when I arrive, so in order to gain entrance to your house I will traverse your property, bang on your doors and windows, ring your phone constantly and even blast my car horn outside until you wake up and let me in. What if I do this on average of twice/three times a week?. I'm sure you would welcome me with open arms eh?. No amount of money is worth it. No guest is that important. The good ones we welcome far outweigh and outnumber these pests that we do not.

We, the owners of B&B's and Hotels are not in the business of providing charity or a community service. We are not only trying to earn a living BUT also doing this for some measure of enjoyment, it has to be worth it to US in the end. The majority of guests are a joy; a small minority are definately not. We reserve the right to accept shit or refuse it.[:P]

By the way, I suggest you stay in a cattery next time you travel, one that stays open waaaayy after midnight. Don't forget to stick to your own 'tray'.[;-)]

By the way Quillan, we are a hotel, not a Chambres d'Hotes. And we state this everywhere.

 

 

 

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[quote user="Cassis"]Hello Benjie!

We don't charge for extras (though we leave a box for pourboires at the exit - God help you if you fail to contribute).
[/quote]

Phil ..........

Bet you didn't get a 'bung' from C & J last night !  Notoriously stingey.

They've told me today today that they thoroughly enjoyed their stay last night, especially the Museau at the local restaurant!

That aside, and the occasional heated comment in this thread, isn't all this purely and simply about consideration for those providing a service?  I find some of the situations described in threads like this hard to believe, yet they obviously happen.  Many of these people presumably hold down quite demanding professional roles with deadlines to keep to, yet find it impossible to plan something as simple as a journey from A to B (with allowances) and the ability + consideration to ring ahead with a change of plan.    

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[quote user="Gardian"]

Bet you didn't get a 'bung' from C & J last night !  Notoriously stingey.

They've told me today today that they thoroughly enjoyed their stay last night, especially the Museau at the local restaurant!

That aside, and the occasional heated comment in this thread, isn't all this purely and simply about consideration for those providing a service?  I find some of the situations described in threads like this hard to believe, yet they obviously happen.  Many of these people presumably hold down quite demanding professional roles with deadlines to keep to, yet find it impossible to plan something as simple as a journey from A to B (with allowances) and the ability + consideration to ring ahead with a change of plan.    

[/quote]

Hi, Ian. At least he avoided the andouille. Lovely couple, I wish they were all like that.  You've hit the nail bang on the head - it's about consideration for others.  We can't do enough for people who treat us properly, rather than like doormats.

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I agree with the last few comments - that's what keeps us all going!

I'd love to know if any of the hotels that Anton stays in could be bothered to telephone him TWICE during the course of the evening to see a) if he was still coming and b) if he still wanted to eat...?? As mentioned in the initial message this is what I did. It was only when they didnt bother to call back (despite being able to use their phone to call a taxi) and then arrived at 10.30pm with no apology and started to become aggressive that we took the stance we did.

Having read everyone's level headed (and some not so..) comments we'd do it slightly differently next time - we'd throw 'em out at 10.30 for being so rude and aggressive towards us! If they're going to bad mouth /report you anyway let 'em start at 10.30pm rather than 10.30am after you've fed them breakfast and cleaned up after them!

There are several hotels in our village (all typical (!) 2 star logis) probably a bit too posh for Anton [;-)]. Even so, without exception, they have chairs on tables by 9.30pm and doors closed, lights out before 10pm. There is no doorbell so you couldn't even ring the bell if you were late. They use VAD credit card machines so they'd take the money without even so much as an explanation and that is generally acceptable behaviour from a hotel!

Its for exactly this reason that we excused these two for their rudeness as we thought it would be too mean to throw them out, knowing that they wouldn't find anywhere else open at that time of night........look at the 'thanks' we got!! We're not looking for thank just civilised behaviour.

I think we all (French & British cdh owners) feel exactly the same way. In fact our local French colleagues are far less tolerant than we are! What keeps us going are the many many pleasant guests who are a joy to have in our homes. Those who are not will certainly NEVER be tolerated in our home again. These weren't the first to be rude and inconsiderate and previously we've taken the very British 'customer is always right' stance but where does it get you? Stressed, angry etc etc.

Keep the comments coming it makes for really good reading - Anton seems to have gone very quiet. One question I have is that if he doesn't own a b&b (which Î preusme he doesn't)  then he can't have a very exciting life if he spends time reading this forum designated for 'owners'. [:)]

Sue.

 

 

 

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[quote user="Susie"]

Having read everyone's level headed (and some not so..) comments we'd do it slightly differently next time - we'd throw 'em out at 10.30 for being so rude and aggressive towards us! If they're going to bad mouth /report you anyway let 'em start at 10.30pm rather than 10.30am after you've fed them breakfast and cleaned up after them!

[/quote]

When I told my OH your story this was exactly what he said he would have done!  We have had some horrors, perhaps not quite this bad, but probably many more that make it well worth doing as an enjoyable way of making a living, albeit hard work.  It always gets me when someone like Anton comes onto this forum and starts moaning that we have had the audacity to moan about a particularly rude or aggressive customer.  Surely it is better to come on here and let off steam to other B&B owners who will understand, than to bottle it up or take it out on our customers.

This last week we have had our most delightful family ever staying with us.  They were German and hardly spoke a word of English and no French at all.  Consequently, even though I now say I will only cook 4 nights a week in August I ended up cooking every night for them because they didn't like trying to get by in French restaurants - it was extremely tiring as they spent every evening firing questions at us about anything and everything and our german is pretty limited so the 25 year old pocket dictionary came in for a hammering.  The two little boys got through over a litre of hot chocolate every morning and a couple of evenings I ended up cooking chips for them because they had demolished the HUGE bowl of one form or another of potatoes that I had prepared.  I don't think they would have got that kind of service in many French hotels!!!  But because they were all so polite and so grateful it was a pleasure to do it for them.

Tomorrow we have a French family arriving with six kids!!![:-))]  I have said they can pitch a tent in the garden for 3 of the kids because we don't have enough bed space and they are competing at the Saint Lo Horse Show and left it too late to find adequate accommodtion - OH says I'm a soft touch and perhaps I will regret it, but again, what hotel would allow this?  Long live flexible B&Bs I say. [:D]

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[quote user="Susie"]

Also, as a chef, I don't think microwaving previously sauted salmon fillets would be a good idea....not very tasty! They'd probably have eaten and gone away and criticised the standard of the food offered - you can never win! [:)]

Sue

[/quote]

I have never heard of anyone saute-ing salmon fillets before their guests/customers were in the building. How bizarre!
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[quote user="Cassis"]Susie - re. the meals thing, tell them to sue and be damned.  You don't need them.

[quote user="Quillan"]

I think the grading thing may be regional then (I think we have been down this route before, something about how much the membership fees differ from one area to another) or perhaps they allow those who registered ages ago to continue. Certainly in our area it's a no no now. As to grading, well in theory it should be the same but as you know the bureaucracy in France is open to whoever interprets it and each regions interpretation can be quite different to another even though the written word is the same.

[/quote]
Fact remains that GdF's own regs do not require ensuite.  Fees from one region to another have absolutely nothing to do with it.  Just for the record:

For 1 Epis the requirement is that for up to six persons you need a shower room or bathroom for the exclusive use of your guests; for more than 6 guests you need a second bathroom.

For 2 Epis the shower/bathroom for each room has to be private to each bedroom, but does not have to be en suite (communiquante).

For 3 and 4 Epis the shower/bathroom for each room has to be en suite to each bedroom.

These are national rules.  There are no such thing as local rules.  If the local office tries to say different it is wrong - you can complain to the national office.  Don't be a wuss and don't take any bullshit and don't believe everything you are told - not least here.
[/quote]

You are quite right with the grading above. GDF could hardly throw out all their members who did not have ensuite rooms. The above information is quite clear and available on the general public GDF website as an indication as to what to expect.

People currently registering for the first time in our region* are told that non ensuite rooms are not accepted. Those already registered with non ensuite rooms have had grants made available to make them ensuite. The grants are from the Consular Generals office and are available to members of other organisations as well are special in that some of the normal restraints placed on grants are removed when used solely for this purpose. This information was also published in our regional free journal issued by the Consular General and delivered bi-monthly to all houses etc in the region.

* I refer to my region because in the past many know that regions vary. For example some have to pay (a 'admin' fee) for a food and drinks licence and others do not. When the CDS requirement was abolished for people from the UK some regions refused to issue them when asked and others were very willing to issue them. The list goes on and it always seems to go back to how people interpret such things which is why I refer to my region only.

If in doubt contact your regional rep and see what they have to say.

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Coco, we have a small room that we very clearly advertise is for TWO people only on the websites. Yet, this week, we have French people quoting the 'children stay free' thing and trying to book a family of four/five for that room. Requesting extra beds etc. I mean, how much clearer can you be other than 'maximum of two people, including children, for this room'?.Yes, kids stay free here, but only when using exisiting bedding. They do not seem to understand that. Why?. So, we cancel their reservation and notify them. The last lot have not acknowledged their email, so, we are expecting a family of four on the 15th expecting to squeeze two extra beds into a small room that permits no more than one bed/two people. And yet a quad/triple room was available for them to book at the time.  We have had this situation repeatedly over the past three years and it is very unpleasant. They arrive and then expect us to accommodate them, if not here then somewhere else. This year, they will get a shock. Their fault for being too 'cheap'.

Yes, hasn't Anton gone quiet?. I expect he is curled up in his french-owned cattery somewhere.

If we B&B/hotel owners are to have any enjoyment, or quality of life, then we have to enforce some rules and regulations. And stick to them. Why should we not?.

 

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Also Susie, when our guests book dinner I have made it a rule not to start cooking the meal until they have arrived. Now, we have had some who have booked dinner for 7pm yet have not arrived until 8pm. Then they have whinged because their dinner is not on the table until 8.30pm. Sorry, but I dont re-heat meals here in the microwave. We advertise 'fresh, home-cooked food' and that is what I serve. If people, and nearly everyone has a mobile phone these days, cannot call you in time to call in late then dont start cooking at all. If they arrive late (after your 'sign off' time...have one!) then definately dont cook at all. There are plenty of restaurants throughout France, and I always say, if people can drive during the hours between 6 and 9pm then they can stop and eat somewhere along the way. We have people arrive here at 10pm and complain that they have not eaten in hours...their fault, not mine!. France has the highest quota of McDonalds than anywhere else in Europe...so, no excuse to not eat. I have a family of eight and close the kitchen at 8pm for good reason. To get some bloody rest!. When we travel through France we bust a gut to get into a restaurant before closing time, because after 8.30pm the doors are slammed in your face.

You need to say that your kitchen closes at a certain time and stick to it. Quillan, how late do you sit up in order to serve a meal?. Do you wait until they arrive until you cook or do you 'reheat the hash'?.

 

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<< Yes, hasn't Anton gone quiet?. I expect he is curled up in his french-owned cattery somewhere. >>

I said what I said and nothing in the other posts on this thread has made me done anything except reinforce my views. I have 'no showed' twice in the last twenty years in both occasions through channel crossings which which took six hours rather than under two. In both cases I had 'phoned by 5 pm to say there was no way I could get to the hotel by 10 pm. In the same period I have also had two attempts to bounce me when I turned up on time. One was resolved by me gently pointing out how many time I had stayed at the Hotel in the last five years and even a bed in the staff quarters would be alright. The other was resolved by the time tried 'What can you do to help me ?'

Perhaps I am case harded and have spent to long on the road but provided the room is clean,quiet and has a decent reading light I am happy. I prefer hotels without restuarants because then you can choose where you eat with a clear conscience. I do not want emotional contact which seems implied in replies above. The gap for me is that you are choosing to run a business which involves hospitality and the postings above do not seem to emote that. I do know that running a restaurant, CdH or hotel is both mentally and physically very hard work but it is your choice.

I have had more than enough excitement in my life. For those who have read 'Hotel Rwanda' or 'Sunday by the Pool in Kighali'  the Pigalle is the closest I have come to living in a Cattery. 

 

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[quote user="Anton Redman"]

<< Yes, hasn't Anton gone quiet?. I expect he is curled up in his french-owned cattery somewhere. >>

I said what I said and nothing in the other posts on this thread has made me done anything except reinforce my views. I have 'no showed' twice in the last twenty years in both occasions through channel crossings which which took six hours rather than under two. In both cases I had 'phoned by 5 pm to say there was no way I could get to the hotel by 10 pm. In the same period I have also had two attempts to bounce me when I turned up on time. One was resolved by me gently pointing out how many time I had stayed at the Hotel in the last five years and even a bed in the staff quarters would be alright. The other was resolved by the time tried 'What can you do to help me ?'

Perhaps I am case harded and have spent to long on the road but provided the room is clean,quiet and has a decent reading light I am happy. I prefer hotels without restuarants because then you can choose where you eat with a clear conscience. I do not want emotional contact which seems implied in replies above. The gap for me is that you are choosing to run a business which involves hospitality and the postings above do not seem to emote that. I do know that running a restaurant, CdH or hotel is both mentally and physically very hard work but it is your choice.

I have had more than enough excitement in my life. For those who have read 'Hotel Rwanda' or 'Sunday by the Pool in Kighali'  the Pigalle is the closest I have come to living in a Cattery. 

 

[/quote]

Now Anton,

what you have just written is very palatable.

We must give you  credit when it is due.

 

 

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I think that there has to be some reasonableness on both sides. We go out of our way to avoid charging no-shows but, contrary to what some would say, it does usually cost us money if someone doesn't turn up: the booking system that brought them to us WILL charge us and there is no use appealing to them (I have tried on behalf of guest in the past many times and always been turned down).

What we will do is to try our best to rebook the room and we generally succeed if we're given enough notice. Even though in legal terms we don't have to refund any "noshow fee", we always do this if we rebook the room. The problem is that in many cases the guests don't call us and we only hear what happened when they get our e-mail saying that they've been charged for the room. As far as I know, in all cases where we have charged to date, the guests could easily have avoided the no-show charge by calling us when it became apparent that they weren't going to make it.

What's also a bit demoralising is that we know that in the first three weeks of August we will get a considerable number of people booking with us who actually want to stay at the beach but can't get booked in anywhere so end up with us in the country. Most of these enjoy their time here as it is a wonderful area but we will be sure to get a handful of the English who try to run down our place in an attempt to get out of paying for the room: in fact they will say anything and everything to avoid paying. Despite the language used, we even do refunds to these *******s because we try to be reasonable regardless of how unreasonable the guests are. They don't need to use the language used: just saying "we really wanted to be at the beach" is enough.

I've also seen a bit of an increase in French bookings who seem to assume that we're just doing this as a sideline or something and that therefore a booking is just letting us know that they might be there. One or two have been quite shocked that we've billed them when they didn't cancel. I suspect that this is why you've encountered the overbooking problem Anton: the French run places assume that a number of people won't turn up.

 

Arnold

 

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[quote user="mascamps.com"]

I've also seen a bit of an increase in French bookings who seem to assume that we're just doing this as a sideline or something and that therefore a booking is just letting us know that they might be there. One or two have been quite shocked that we've billed them when they didn't cancel. I suspect that this is why you've encountered the overbooking problem Anton: the French run places assume that a number of people won't turn up.[/quote]

It's not just the French who play these games, Arnold.  A couple of years ago I remember an English contributor to this Forum openly admitting that when making a journey to the South she booked several places along the route and decided which one to stop at on the night.  One hopes she had the courtesy to inform the others she wasn't coming after all.  Somehow, I doubt it.

Over the years we've had our fair share of no-shows, and they've been all nationalities.  The end result is that our booking policy has changed so that we now demand 50% up front from one-nighters.  Next year it will be payment in full. 

My faith in human nature, never great to begin with, has been further eroded by running a B&B.

MM

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Yes Les, we accommodation owners really do start out full of enthusiasm...ready to meet lots of new and different people, eager to make each and every person enjoy their stay. But. Then you encounter reality. And 'reality' means that SOME people treat you as a doormat. 'You ruined their holiday because a cobweb was in the foyer'...'We cannot possibly stay here because the grass has died out the front and it looks burnt'. Yes, these are just two examples of how rude holiday-makers( I hate that english term, why not 'tourist'?) have been to us lately. Lets face it, without people like us, how would these people have holidays in the first place?.

Les, I worked in 'customer service' for years on and off before I came here...my faith in human nature was eroded a loonnng time ago. But the majority of people I meet here make it all worth it.[:)]

Oh, one last thing...if there is one phrase that makes me want to puke it is...'Can we see the room FIRST please'. ALWAYS uttered by english people, who always find something 'wrong'. They are easy to pick now. They arrive in the car park. They sit in their car for about 15 minutes, then come in and utter that phrase.

[I] Maybe its the absence of a red carpet...where can I get one in France?.[6]

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jc, we have travelled all over France, the UK and Spain. Not all establishments would allow this. You either take the room or sod off.

The thing is, our rooms are exactly as advertised. Some with extra features even since they booked.

In our case, they are time-wasters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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