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legal stance, what to do...??


Susie
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Hi,

We just had a horrid experience which I won't spell out in great detail as it is too upsetting. 

To cut a long story short, where do you stand when guests book dinner, you cook dinner yet they fail to turn up (without notice) until 10.30pm? At which time dinner is in th bin and wasted!

We did contact these guests twice over the course of the evening and they claimed on the first occasion not to be able to hear us so would call back - they didnt so our second contact was by text - no reply.

At this point, I'm sure like most of you, we presumed they were a 'no show' and were heading to bed! 

They stayed the night and were charged for the dinner that was cooked and we're now being threatened and, apparently, reported to the local hotelier association for our deplorable behaviour......not that we are a hotel but I still dont like the idea of a 'one sided story' being told to anyone! We try very hard to create a happy and welcoming atmosphere in our home and t only takes one bad penny to ruin everything. 

I believe that it is correct to charge for a dinner that has been cooked, especially when people cant be bothered to contact you and explain that they will be late. Frankly, they were lucky they still had a room as I'd had  3 couples asking for their room that night but I 'd decided that I was too tired to do a 1 night room change over so was planning to leave it empty!

I'd be grateful to hear what anyone else would do in this situation. Previously, (when people are less aggressive towards us) I've offered a sandwich or even a replacement picnic the next day.

Thanks Sue 

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Susie,

That sounds awful. These people sound very inconsiderate and, frankly, if they were aggressive to me in my home they would have been asked to leave regardless of what time it was.

They should be happy they got a bed! Thankfully, most of us dont come across too many people like this!

I absolutely agree that if you are asked to provide dinner and do so then the onus is on the guests to keep you inofrmed. If they had called at, say 7pm, to cancel dinner which was probably already prepared then its a little harder to know what to do about charging.

The fact that you made contact with them twice was more than considerate on your behalf. Did  they apologise for being late and missing dinner?!

What do others do? Does anyone know the legal stance here ?

abi 

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As nasty as this episode was for you, I would imagine that they are all bluster. I can't see many people wanting to interupt their holidays to go and have a moan , that's even if they can find the place and their language skills are up to it.

It was probably a threat to try and force you to back down , I think we have a good idea of the calibre of person you are dealing with here. I would make a note of it and them for future reference and if they have paid you and left, try and forget about them.[:)]

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Beryl,

Thanks for your support. They were french but, incredibly, the threats came not from them but from a man who has driven them somewhere today! He has left a message on our answer phone which is very very aggressive so I imagine that sat in his car giving their side of the story and he was so insensed that he felt the need to call us and threaten to report us and tell us how disgusting he thinks we are...!

I really should 'move on' people like this aren't worth it but it is so upsetting when you try so hard to keep everyone happy and just for once decide not to be treated like a doormat!

I'm off to watch a 'feel good' film!

Sue

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I wouldn't worry about it at all. They're just 'trying it on' or failing to take on board any blame. I'd be most surpirsed if they've actually reported it to anyone. If they didn't have the courtesy of communicating with you before dinner was due to be served (and ideally, before you prepared it), I wouldn't worry at all about charging them for the dinner they missed. You met your side of the deal, which was to have a meal ready for them, at the appointed time - I assume the time of dinner was agreed?

They screwed up, they pay.

As mentioned in an earlier post, there are of course grey areas but yours sounds clear cut to me.

I'm not a lawyer, but I would have thought that there existed a contract for a set fee to provide dinner. You provided it. The fact that they were not there to receive it does not mean there is not a contract. In any case, they paid.

....having just read your later reply, I'd be inclined to call the driver back (assuming you have the number) and tell him that you were very surprised by his comments since they enjoyed a lovely dinner that night and offered huge praise on how lovely it was and so, you can only conclude that they were pulling his leg!

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Hi Susie,

I feel very sorry for you.  I wouldn't worry.  As the previous poster said it is highly unlikely that the threatened complaint will materialise, and, if it does, I doubt they have a leg to stand on.

I am sure that you told them when they booked what time you serve dinner, and if they couldn't be bothered to let you know how late they were going to be you had every right to assume they wouldn't show.  I would have.

Unfortunately, inconsiderate guests are a fact of life in this business.  Thankfully, the majority of guests are not like this at all.

V.

 

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We have friends with us at the moment and we were asked the other night whether we'd ever considered taking in 'paying guests'.

Your thread just about sums up my answer.  You deserve a medal for some of the cretins you have to deal with, though (happily) these people seem to be in the minority.

Best wishes for the rest of the season.

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I find that it's exclusively the French who are like that.

We price the breakfast separately so ask people if they want it. Several times we have had it ordered the night before and as they didn't take it the next morning they didn't want to pay. Their reasoning is always "but your family will eat it". If it's ordered, we bill them for it.

We've also had a bit of a run of people booking and quoting arrival times from 1am onward. This despite us making it very clear that we close up at 10pm (though we do allow a grace period up to 11pm or so). I gather that this is quite common at the moment as the booking system that the last lot booked through have refused to contact the guest and cancel the booking despite us telling them that we will definitely not be letting them in at 1am (we've no contact details for these guests).

And, as it's August, we have a fair number of people booking a double room and turning up with more people. Two nights ago they wanted four people in the double room, last night three people had booked the smallest double room we have (which just ain't big enough to add another bed) and phoned this morning to ask for their deposit back because they didn't arrive 'til way after we closed and couldn't get in.

Still, only another three weeks and 'twill be back to normal :)

 

Arnold

 

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Hi arnold,

I couldnt agree more! This year we've seen a huge increase in trade from Dutch and Belgians (flemish) and their attitude is so different.

I'm pleased to say we haven't had more people turning up than agreed although we get the odd dog that they 'forgot' to mention.

It appears that nothing has come of this incident and, as you say, only a few more weeks to go.....!!

We offer breakfast between 8.30 and 9.30 and French guests think nthing of coming down at 8.00 or 10.00 expecting to bve fed. Same applies to dinner - 7.30 is presumed to be 7.50!!!  You can never win in this game. Our experience is that the more you 'flex' for guests the more they expect. We've decided to ecome a bit more rigid when its applicabe (for sanity)!

Sue

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Luckly we have only had this happen once this year , a last minute booking and dinner was requested, guests did not show and the mobile number i had did not work, so was unable to bill them.

 

Last week had a party of 4 turn up with dog in toe, we dont accept dogs, i knew they had friends staying elsewhere and asked if the dog was staying with them. Oh no was the reply, to which the responce was that at no stage was a dog mentioned in the booking and we would not allow the dog into the house, ( we also have a dog and ours was going mad) So guests said in that case the dog would stay in the car , but it was just assumed that it would not be a problem

 

On the whole this has been a good year so far but still  3 more weeks to go

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We used to say that breakfast was from 8.30 to 10 and found that people ended up coming down close to 10 quite a lot of the time which is a nuisance. So, what we started doing two years back was to say that breakfast is at 9 to everyone except when we're pretty full when we say 8.30 to 9.30 to try and spread the workload a little. That worked quite nicely until this year when everyone comes down at 8.30 so we'll likely go back to "9 for everyone" again.

We had something of an "incident" last year with a dog. Seems that you can't refuse to take them unless you have a "no dogs" sign on the door so best to print one off and get it on the door now. Be wary of listings sites outside France too: some have a box to tick saying "dogs accepted" which sounds fine but if you don't tick the box it doesn't mention dogs on your entry and you need to add it in the text.

Best we ever had was one family who booked the smallest room which states that it's two max regardless of age yet they turned up with five and couldn't understand why we couldn't put a couple of extra beds in the room even when they were standing in it and could see that there just wasn't the floor space to do that.

One thing we've done this year is to run with a 2 night minimum for the weekends which is brilliant. Not only are we not wrecked after several days of overnighters but it's left the gaps for those staying for a week or more so our average stay is way up on what it was last year.

 

Arnold

 

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Susie... one thing to watch with the Belgians: write & speak to them in English!

We always send out an acknowledgement e-mail for every booking and do it in the language of the country when we can do it and English when we can't. Anyway, we had Belgium listed as "French" and got mildly told off by a series of Flemish who stayed.

It's also interesting that the Flemish mostly use Dutch booking sites whilst the Waloons use mainly French ones (don't think there are any based in Belgium itself).

 

Arnold

 

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You must stick to your closing times as well otherwise you will be getting out of bed at all hours after midnight to let people in to your building. This not only reeeaallly annoys you but absolutely disturbs your other guests sleep when people are lugging suitcases up stairs, opening and shutting doors and talking loudly between themselves despite it being after midnight.  It is amazing how inconsiderate some people can be. A group of people recently arrived here at 1am. They went around the building banging on doors and windows and spent some time leaning on their car horn in order to get us up. This went on for half an hour.  At one 0'clock in the morning!

We ignored them. Fortunately they did not disturb the guests. In our first two years here we constantly let in people at times like 5am when those people had stated they would be here at 9pm the night before. Not anymore. When we state 'we close at ten'... we CLOSE at ten!. [:P] After that, sod them.

Personally, I'd rather accept dogs than most people.[;-)]

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Having spent a good deal of my life in and around the catering business, I'd have held the meal for them and then served it up to them when they arrived.

No reason not to leave the meal on plates in the oven and just microwave/reheat it when they turn up - and if they don't turn up, you've lost nothing as you were binning it the previous evening so doesn't matter if you dump it in the morning if they're no shows. 

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Most of the above explains why I prefer to stay in the worst/cheapest/shodiest  French  hotels rather than  British owned C de H. If you would prefer people to be no shows rather than turn up at 1 am then that is your choice but you should make it totally clear on your website and expect to loose the business.

The attitudes to hospitality expounded above explain why we hunted long and hard for a cattery which was French owned .

Personally I would  rather negotiate with dogs for sleeping space than buy something from you..

This week on the Forum there have been enough postings about the nuls who simply do not realise how big France is, there have also been enough postings from people who have been totally messed about by the Tunnel, Ferries and Airlines. My view is that if you want to make somebodies 'day' even worse at 11 pm after a couple of problems beyound their contriol that is fine but you should not be running a hotel or C d H.

Despite my predelictiton for refering to Flemish as 'Dutch pour dels Nuls'  or 'Afrikance for the Intelligencia'  I would suggest you get the thirty phrases you need to reply together.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Makes me soooo glad that we don't run a Gite or B & B but it's not all down to pig ignorant Brits.

My neighbour has a Gite and a couple of weeks ago had a trio of Australians in, two women and a bloke, and what a nightmare they turned out to be.

They complained all day long about just about everything. The guy frigged about with the electrics one evening for who know what reason then complained when there was no hot water in the morning and they even trogged up to their house to complain that the Nivea Cream and shampoo were finished and got quite uppity when they were told that these were not supplied but were just left overs from previous guests left in the Gite as a courtesy.

It went on to the point where he was just going to tell them to shove off, especially as up to that point they had conveniently "forgotten" to hand over the balance of the rental on arrival as required. After a confrontation they coughed and thankfully settled down a bit.

He's now decided to sell the Gite because the aggrevation/income equation just isn't worth it. 

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[quote user="Susie"]

Hi,

We just had a horrid experience which I won't spell out in great detail as it is too upsetting. 

To cut a long story short, where do you stand when guests book dinner, you cook dinner yet they fail to turn up (without notice) until 10.30pm? At which time dinner is in th bin and wasted!

We did contact these guests twice over the course of the evening and they claimed on the first occasion not to be able to hear us so would call back - they didnt so our second contact was by text - no reply.

At this point, I'm sure like most of you, we presumed they were a 'no show' and were heading to bed! 

They stayed the night and were charged for the dinner that was cooked and we're now being threatened and, apparently, reported to the local hotelier association for our deplorable behaviour......not that we are a hotel but I still dont like the idea of a 'one sided story' being told to anyone! We try very hard to create a happy and welcoming atmosphere in our home and t only takes one bad penny to ruin everything. 

I believe that it is correct to charge for a dinner that has been cooked, especially when people cant be bothered to contact you and explain that they will be late. Frankly, they were lucky they still had a room as I'd had  3 couples asking for their room that night but I 'd decided that I was too tired to do a 1 night room change over so was planning to leave it empty!

I'd be grateful to hear what anyone else would do in this situation. Previously, (when people are less aggressive towards us) I've offered a sandwich or even a replacement picnic the next day.

Thanks Sue 

[/quote]

Hi Sue,

you say you don't like "one sided stories."

You have just posted one!

Kind regards,

Leo

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Well then you're obviously better at it than I am, maybe you deserve a medal?! [;-)]

I am NOT prepared to feed people at10.30pm if they can't be bothered to contact me.

Help those who help themselves,  and treat others as they treat you. Thats my motto and I'm sticking to it.

Also, as a chef, I don't think microwaving previously sauted salmon fillets would be a good idea....not very tasty! They'd probably have eaten and gone away and criticised the standard of the food offered - you can never win! [:)]

Sue 

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For one thing Anton, you'll find that the small French hotels are closed by around 10pm/11pm. One locally happily accepts reservations for Sundays but isn't open to accept people no matter what time they arrive on Sunday and we do quite well from the people who turn up there trying to get in. He even charges them as noshows!

If people have a problem and turn up later than planned we DO stay open, unlike French hotels (except 24hour places like IBIS and the like). We accept that there can be unexpected problems along the road. In fact, although we say we close at 10pm we actually don't close 'til 11pm as a delibrate attempt to give guest a period of grace in their arrival time. We have been travelling in France extensively and there is no period of grace like that in any French owned hotel: even when we have seen the reception staff still standing there, we have never been allowed to checkin if we're even a few minutes after the hotel closing time. One place even closed the doors in our face. Not only that, but try asking for a meal just 1 minute after a restaurant closing time here. In fact, try asking for one 30 minutes BEFORE their stated closing time and you'll often be refused.

So, whilst there is usually some ability to negotiate in a Brit owned place, in a French place you will simply be told "no".

Brit owned B&Bs go out of their way to serve guests. There are limits though as they don't have any staff. It's just not viable to be consistently up to 2am and then get up for breakfasts at 6am.

What we don't accept is people who read that we are open from 2pm to 10pm and then tell us in advance that they will be here at 1am. We don't treat them as no shows but rather tell them that we're not accepting the booking. Similarly we don't accept those from Paris who book for Saturday and then announce that they'll be arriving at 5am for their room on the basis that they've booked "Saturday" when they've actually booked Saturday night (this is very common).

However, every single time we have tried to meet people at 1am or whatever we have consistently been asked for even more. One arrival this time last year rang us from Barcelona at 10pm to ask if it was OK to come which we agreed to as they'd be here by 12.30. In fact, they weren't even here at 2am when we finally gave up on them (they subsequently called to give us a stream of abuse because we hadn't stayed open 'til 3.30am when they finally arrived). Our latest late arrival read the website, booked online on a site which wouldn't allow him to quote any time later than 10pm and just added "I'll be there at 1am" in the comments. Given where he'll be driving from this means that he won't even be getting into the car until after 8pm. So, no, we won't be accepting him.

Oh, and if the cattery operates on the same basis as French owned places, your cat will be fed the cheapest possible food that they can find. Most Brit owned places use so many ingredients in their meals & breakfasts that they make nothing on them. Breakasts in particular are consistently dreadful in French owned places.

 

Arnold

 

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Anton,

Is it you or your cat staying in the cattery?! [;-)]

 In my experience there may be little difference between " worst /cheapest / shoddiest french hotel" and a french cattery.

Let me have the contact details of this cattery, I'll happily send them any future wasted salmon fillets!!!!

Sue  (Now I'm going to tidy up the extensive buffet breakfast that my happy (french) clients have just enjoyed and then tidy up their bedrooms so that all is lovley and 'fluffy' for their return this afternoon).

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There are a few things to think about here. Firstly and technically there is no such thing as a B&B in France, they are called Chambres D'hotes (room of hosts) and an evening meal is referred to as Table D'hotes (table of hosts). I know us Brits tend to call them B&B's and the meal evening meal but to keep things correct I will will use the abbreviated form of the French version namely CDH and TDH respecively.

A CDH offers many things but in the main you are staying with a family, in their home as a paying guest. You get a much more personal service, high quality accommodation and a lot more freedom that a small hotel. If you want to eat an evening dinner then you eat with the owners and have what they have and be seated at the same table. Technically if you offer a choice of food (menu), place them on individual tables, don't eat with them and allow them to have their evening meal at any other time than you would have yours then you have become a restaurant and then it's a different ball game. By this I mean you need a separate kitchen which will be regularly inspected, guests food to be kept separately and you must have the ability to trace all food stuff back from the table to the source. Also your tax regime etc will change and for many the cost would mean it's not worth while doing.

There are three places to the best of my knowledge that you can complain to and they are Gite de France, Clevacances (if you are a member o either or both) and/or the local tourist office or the departmental Office of Tourism. A complaint to these people will be followed up vigorously.

Having said that and explaining what TDH is they would, in my opinion, say that the OP was correct in as much as it was an unreasonable hour to have an evening meal when it is commonly accepted that such a meal is normally eaten around 19:30 in most French homes. OK some French people eat earlier and some eat later but the majority eat around this time.

Having been on the other end of this situation by going out for a meal and all the restaurants being closed in the area because it was half day closing and the host (non English by the way) just shrugging and in a round about way saying 'tough luck' walked away leaving us starving. We always said that when we run our CDH we would not treat people his way and would in this situation (and that of the OP) offer a sandwich and beverage and nothing complicated. Of course people get delayed, it happens, and more often it's not their fault and like many other CDH owners we try to be as helpful as we can but being a 'one man show' with no staff both sides have to be reasonable in their expectations.

As to the suggest that the meal can be kept warm in a CDH, well that's quite frankly ridiculus given the time period involved after which the meal would be literally a blob on a plate due o the fact the meals are prepared and cooked in a domestic kitchen to be eaten at the same time as the owners eat theirs. Also CDH owners do not have professional food warmers because they are so expensive and way beyond the financial means of a CDH owner.

France in general is a country that has a lot to learn about Customer Service, one only has to look through the forum where people have commented about the bad quality of Customer Service/Care they have received. What the English in particular have bought to France and CDH in particular is a high level of customer care and high standards such as ensuite bedrooms and facilities where before the shower was a plastic or metal cubical in the corner and the toilet had a curtain around it to separate it from the bedroom. Perhaps Anton should try a CDH, my guess is that he wont stay in the cheapest hotel he can find ever again. Certainly in my area such levels of service offered by English owned CDH have had a dramatic effect in as much as the Consular General has made it very clear that this is the way to go and that all CDH regardless of owners origin should at least reach the standards of English run CDH's. We are now at a point where Gite de France, Clevacances and the tourist office will not consider CDH's unless all the rooms are ensuite. To clarify, if you have three bedrooms, one ensuite and the two others (however nice they may be) sharing a communal bathroom the latter will not be recognised or graded, only the ensuite room will be.

By the way Arnold I think it only fair that you mention that you are not a CDH/B&B but an Auberge/small hotel and that the rules that apply to you are quite different to those of a CDH providing TDH. Just to save any confusion.

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Swweping generalisation number one:

Most Brit owned places use so many ingredients in their meals & breakfasts that they make nothing on them. Breakasts in particular are consistently dreadful in French owned places.

What is the basis of this comment? We have had very good and very bad food in both French and British owned places. I have yet to find a B&B that charges separately for breakfasts, so how can anybody say they are provided at a profit or a loss?

Generalisation No 2

What the English in particular have bought to France and CDH in particular is a high level of customer care and high standards such as ensuite bedrooms and facilities where before the shower was a plastic or metal cubical in the corner and the toilet had a curtain around it to separate it from the bedroom. 

Rubbish, we found many excellent French run B&Bs with proper, very well-appointed bathrooms, years before the 'English invasion'. And there are English-run places where the facilities are separated from the bedroom with a curtain; I don't se why that is wrong anyway.

Misleading statement no 1

We are now at a point where Gite de France, Clevacances and the tourist office will not consider CDH's unless all the rooms are ensuite.

Don't believe you. It will no doubt affect the grading (number of epis) but there are plenty of places that have separate bathrooms.

Misleading statement No 2

There are three places to the best of my knowledge that you can complain to and they are Gite de France, Clevacances (if you are a member o either or both) and/or the local tourist office or the departmental Office of Tourism. A complaint to these people will be followed up vigorously.

So why, in my experience, do they never bother to get back to the complainer with the outcome?

 

 

 

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I can't answer point one but.:

G2 - Many people don't want to stay in places where the toilet is separated by a curtain, perhaps you should ask some that stay with you, I assume you run a CDH. Your quite right it would be very unfair to say all French CDH are like my description when they of course are not but there are quite a few around particularily in my area that were. There was a big artical in our regional Consular Generals magazine about the poor quality of Gites and CDH and the fact they did not meet current European standards, expectations and quality. As to English CDH with the same sort of thing (curtains round toilets), well I have not seen one but then that does not mean they don't exist somewhere.

M1 - Believe what you want but try phoning the offices in my area they are in the book. I also know of two CDH's that were refused registration this year (one as recent as 6 weeks ago) on the rooms that were not ensuite. Don't get confused by thinking that the whole building gets the grading, it's done by each room. This means you can have 5 bedrooms and one can pass as a 3 grade (for instance Epis). You can say you have a 3 grade but you should always point out that it is for a particular bedroom and that the rest are not graded. We have a room that failed to get a grade because it was 0.5M2 too small and it can't be advertised by GDF or Clevacances and when taking bookings for it we have to say it's not graded.

M2 -  Did you ask the people who you complained about what happened? That's what I mean about customer service, you would have thought they would have got back to you and said it's being dealt with. Just because they didn't does not mean they did nothing. There was a CDH last year about 30km away from us that lost their grading due to a complaint, what the complaint was I don't know but it must of been serious, we were officially told not to recommend it to people if we were full as an alternative

 

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G2
No, we don't run a B&B now but we have done so in the past. One room had the facilities separated from the bed by a curtain. It was in fact built that way by the previous French owner. Nobody refused to stay there or objected on arrival. That's not to say you might not get some awkward types.

M1
We had several in our area with, say, two rooms with 2 epis and one with 3. Maybe each area grades places slightly differently. I have stayed in places where the facilities were in separate adjoining bathrooms, i.e. not en-suite, and which were of very high standard. It makes no sense at all to refuse to grade such establishments.

M2
I have never recived any response to complaints or suggestions. And not through Fleurs de Soleil or Sawday either.

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I think the grading thing may be regional then (I think we have been down this route before, something about how much the membership fees differ from one area to another) or perhaps they allow those who registered ages ago to continue. Certainly in our area it's a no no now. As to grading, well in theory it should be the same but as you know the bureaucracy in France is open to whoever interprets it and each regions interpretation can be quite different to another even though the written word is the same.

At the end of the day it's a customer driven business and its they who decide what type of accommodation they prefer and where the toilet is. I have to say that even in the UK over the years we have always wanted an ensuite room and would not take anything less unless there was absolutely no choice. We have a lot of customers who ask if the rooms are ensuite when booking even though we say they are on our website and in all our publicity.

Anyway we are drifting a little here I think from the OP.

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