Setting up

[Magnolia]

Hi Everyone

Myself and my husband have very recently started to let 2 rooms in the our home. We have done what we thought was the required by registering at the Mairies and got our Table d'Hote licence but I read today that we should do the following:

1- If this is our only income along with a gite, we must register our business at the Chambres de Commerce et d'Industrie

2 - Prices are to be advertised on the outside of the premises, in the 'reception' and behind the front door of every room

3 - Completing a 'fiche individuelle de police' for every foreign guest and handing it to the local police station on the same day

4 - The 'Direction Departementale des Services Veterinaires' will need to be involved to check health and safety rules are complied with

Is all of this information correct or is it only for people with large B&B's? There were other points as well but they were pretty straight forward.

Would someone be kind enough to shed some light on this matter for us

Regards

[Danny]

From what you have told us...

yes, you should register at the CCI if it is your main income

sorry, can't answer the other questions

Danny

[Magnolia]

Thanks Danny

Anybody else know anything please?

[Wendy]

Hi Magnolia,

first off good luck with your new venture!. You are on the right track except with line (3). We never record or hand in the personal data of individuals, foreign or otherwise, to the local police. We have been here in this business for 4 years and have never done this and the police have never bothered to ask us for it. One reason is that collecting this data can only really be restricted to non-Europeans strictly, if you wish to do it at all. Asking the non-french but other European people, i.e. british, italian, spanish, etc, is against European law as they are not 'foreigners' anywhere in Europe and must be treated as the French are in this country.

We came up against this policy in Italy recently where a British lady running a hotel in Savona asked us to fill out a form detailing our personal info. She said she had to hand it in to the local police the next day. The OH refused on the grounds that he is British, therefore European and not a 'foreigner'. We did not fill her form in and she had to wear it or lose a booking. She wore it.

Don't make more work for yourself than you already have.

 

 

 

[Laurier]

I'm interested in coming in on this point on asking for info. I am asked for this info regularly when I travel in France at various Kyriad, Campanile and Logis hotels. I was told the fiche had to be handed to the police and the one particular Kyriad must have any number of copies of my passport! I have protested the point several times with the GM and he said it was a legal requirement for them.  I travel on a normal British (EU) passport.

From what you say, I can legitimately refuse to give the info? They would probably say they use the passport as an ID document since Brits don't have one. I always pay cash so it's not as if they need to verify a credit card name.

Laurier

 

 

[Quillan]

We always ask for peoples name, address, phone number, nationality, car registration and where applicable an email address. This is normally 'harvested' when a booking is made. In the case of 'walk in' guests we have a form.

Personally I think it rather stupid not to do this for two reasons. The first and most important reason is in case of accident or illness.Lets say there was a fire (God forbid) and they burnt to death. You would look pretty stupid if you didn't know who was staying with you.

Secondly there is theft, either from you or other guests.

The information is also very handy for marketing as well.

What we don't do is give out the information to anyone including the police/gendarmes. When we started we went and asked for the cards but were told nobody bothers anymore so they (the gendarmes) don't have any.

[Gastines]

Regarding the Police Info. The Mairie should give you a Tax de sejour book to fill in. Each guest is charged a locally fixed bed tax per night. This basically is paid to the Tresor Public at the end of ech 6 months. You are supposed to register each guest,.name and address,  If you do this when guests arrive it is better than a burglar alarm,as guests are aware you know where they live,and you can take car numbers. As we don't advertise and rely on passing trade this is a point worth noting.   Hopefully when you start getting return trade the safety factor doesn't arise. Most French guests offer to pay and show the identity card on arrival.

The tax per day here is only 50 cents which we obviously don't pass on to guests.When we pay the money into the Tresor,the staff don't seem to know what it is all about, I may add.

Regards.

[Magnolia]

Hi Everyone

Thank you so much for all the information provided. Just to say that when we've had paying guests (all of 2 so far) I have sat them down on arrival with a pot of tea and biscuits, whilst they fill out an ID form which I made up myself. I then file this for future reference. I thought that this would be enough.

Also, if the DDSV are to be informed can I get a copy of the health and safety guidelines to ensure we are doing everything correctly? If so, where can I get it? Thereafter, do the DDSV come to the property to inspect? Do all of you have 'Table d'Hote? If not, why not? I feel that we have to do it because we live in a small hamlet with no restaurant.

One other thing whilst I think about it. We have a 2 bedroomed gite which will be ready for April 2008 which has the pool located next to it. Currently we are advertising the pool as 'communal' so that the B&B guests can use it also. However, someone recently said that we'll have trouble letting the gite because of this as people want a private pool. Do B&B guests expect use of the pool if there's one on the premises? What would you do?

 

[betoulle]

having just spent 2 months with a tax inspector going through all our accounts we have it on good authority from her, our accountant & our local GdF office that Taxe de sejour is payable by the guest & must be itemised on their invoice/receipt whether or not you include it in the rental price for gites/room rate for B&B.  You are basically a collection agent - the local Tresor office give us a form which we are supposed to complete & give to the guest on departure.  The French are fully aware of the tax & happy to pay it.  Like Quillan we take all our guest details for both security & marketing purposes, but the Tresor have never asked us for guest details, just number of guests/night which we note on a form/month & hand into them in October together with the cheque.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Gastines"]

Regarding the Police Info. The Mairie should give you a Tax de sejour book to fill in. Each guest is charged a locally fixed bed tax per night. This basically is paid to the Tresor Public at the end of ech 6 months. You are supposed to register each guest,.name and address,  If you do this when guests arrive it is better than a burglar alarm,as guests are aware you know where they live,and you can take car numbers. As we don't advertise and rely on passing trade this is a point worth noting.   Hopefully when you start getting return trade the safety factor doesn't arise. Most French guests offer to pay and show the identity card on arrival.

The tax per day here is only 50 cents which we obviously don't pass on to guests.When we pay the money into the Tresor,the staff don't seem to know what it is all about, I may add.

Regards.

[/quote]

It must be regional (as are many things) how they collect TDS because we pay a fixed sum based on number of rooms for six months regardless of if they are occupied or not and there is no book.

It's a good point about the guests knowing. Our software produces a personalised welcome letter in their native language which has their name and address and gives such information about us cleaning the rooms each day (so they know why and who enters their room while they are out just in case we disterb things) what extra services we offer and not to smoke in the bedrooms.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Magnolia"]

Hi Everyone

Thank you so much for all the information provided. Just to say that when we've had paying guests (all of 2 so far) I have sat them down on arrival with a pot of tea and biscuits, whilst they fill out an ID form which I made up myself. I then file this for future reference. I thought that this would be enough.

Also, if the DDSV are to be informed can I get a copy of the health and safety guidelines to ensure we are doing everything correctly? If so, where can I get it? Thereafter, do the DDSV come to the property to inspect? Do all of you have 'Table d'Hote? If not, why not? I feel that we have to do it because we live in a small hamlet with no restaurant.

One other thing whilst I think about it. We have a 2 bedroomed gite which will be ready for April 2008 which has the pool located next to it. Currently we are advertising the pool as 'communal' so that the B&B guests can use it also. However, someone recently said that we'll have trouble letting the gite because of this as people want a private pool. Do B&B guests expect use of the pool if there's one on the premises? What would you do?

 

[/quote]

This DDSV thing is a bit new to me I must confess and it's something we have never done nor heard of. I have always been under the impression that CDH was exempt because it's not a hotel. I would like to know some more on this and wondered where you got the information from, a web link would be nice or the Dicret number. When you are inspected by GDF or Clevacances they do check the kitchen area. The only thing we do which as I understand it is not a requirement is to have a separate fridge for the guests breakfast consumables.

We had a pool for the first time last year and to be honest it was used only by two. One family used it once and the other family used it every day but for only about 5 or 10 minutes. It seems that people like the idea of having a pool to swim in (it may have payed a part in our number of booking but I don't really know) but when here they don't bother. Next season I shall ask people why they don't use it just in case it's the actual pool they don't like. Perhaps Gite people use it more?

[betoulle]

Hi again

Our post crossed in the ether, so to answer some other questions - we decided NOT to do table d'hote something which our local GdF office encouraged as she said it can open a can of worms with all the new regulations - our ex-President of GdF has just opened a B&B nearby & also does NOT offer Td'H.........We have some excellent restaurants nearby & we were told that if we offered T d'H we would alienate the restaurant owners who can be most helpful in sending us work - have to admit the amount of work our local gourmet restaurant has sent us with wedding parties & 'do's the last 4 years far outweighs the amount of money we would have made from offering evening meals.....  GdF also informed us that if you offer T d'H for B&B guests & have gites as well it is a service that must be offered to all your guests - for us this would mean catering for up to 17 people/night during the season, so we would then be liable for VAT ....... another tax minefield, so we are NEVER going to offer T d'H - OK we lose out on the househunters during the 'off' season but in our region these are a dying breed...  as to your question about the pool we have our pool available for ALL our guests - we know of others who only offer access to the pool to B&B guests for 2hrs/day - this to my mind is unfair & if I saw that rule on a website I would not stay there.... all your facilities should be available for ALL to use & make it plain on your website & marketing that the pool is shared - we rarely use ours as we find guests have no objection to sharing the pool with other guests but feel that they are being 'watched' if the owners use it......  There are 3 different types of gite clients: those who want total privacy with no other guests/owner on site either; those who are happy to share, but again prefer no owner nearby & those who are on holiday to meet others, rely on an owner being onsite for those problems & queries which crop up (especially when it comes to broken down vehicles, accidents & illness in the early hours)  Our market is the last category & the number of repeat bookings we get each year is testimony to the fact that we offer a relaxed, no restriction environment for our guests.........

[Quillan]

[quote user="betoulle"]having just spent 2 months with a tax inspector going through all our accounts we have it on good authority from her, our accountant & our local GdF office that Taxe de sejour is payable by the guest & must be itemised on their invoice/receipt whether or not you include it in the rental price for gites/room rate for B&B.  You are basically a collection agent - the local Tresor office give us a form which we are supposed to complete & give to the guest on departure.  The French are fully aware of the tax & happy to pay it.  Like Quillan we take all our guest details for both security & marketing purposes, but the Tresor have never asked us for guest details, just number of guests/night which we note on a form/month & hand into them in October together with the cheque.[/quote]

As I said it must be local/regional because we are not obliged to separate out the TDS. This makes it much easier because then you work in 'round' numbers and you don't have to keep loads of change around.

I was wondering why you were using an accountant assuming you are registered as a Micro Enterprise and use the Micro BIC tax system. All you need to do for the latter is tot up all your out going invoices and put the amount on the tax form. I like simple and it works for me and means I don't have to pay an accountant.

[Magnolia]

Betoulle you're a star!

It seems that you provide  the sort of service that we are aiming for. Relaxed and easy going with everyone being able to use all facilities available. My husband feels that the only way that we are going to make a half decent living with this is by providing evening meals. However, i'm more concerned about the possible opening of the 'can of worms' especially with us having a dog and 2 cats.

I got the information from the December issue of 'The Connexion' newspaper. A friend passed it on to us after reading the article. However, what I find amazing is that the Mairie has no knowledge of most of the information provided in the paper.

 

[Gastines]

While agreeing with Betoulle in principle and legally., In the book provided there are two carbon copies underneath, one of which you are SUPPOSED to give the guest. We offer these,the only person who actually took it and a receipt for his payment was a Notaire. We ALWAYS give a receipt on our card/folder. I don't think we will get deported for paying the tax out of our own pocket. At least,I hope not.The Maire seems pleased that we pay anything in and gave us a good write-up in the local rag.

Regards.

 

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="Magnolia"]

Betoulle you're a star!

It seems that you provide  the sort of service that we are aiming for. Relaxed and easy going with everyone being able to use all facilities available. My husband feels that the only way that we are going to make a half decent living with this is by providing evening meals. However, i'm more concerned about the possible opening of the 'can of worms' especially with us having a dog and 2 cats.

I got the information from the December issue of 'The Connexion' newspaper. A friend passed it on to us after reading the article. However, what I find amazing is that the Mairie has no knowledge of most of the information provided in the paper.

[/quote]

I have to say it got me going a bit because neither GDF or Clevacances have sent us anything about major changes and we have heard nothing from the tourist office either. I had to rush out and buy a copy of the paper just to see what it said as its not normally the sort of thing I would buy

What I have heard about it Décret 2007 - 1733 (you can see it by clicking HERE ) which does not exactly contain wide sweeping changes. Strangely enough this is what the article refers to as its point of reference in The Connexion. Apart from re-iterating the rules on number of bedrooms and guests the main part of the décret is about registering with your local mayor and, very importantly, getting a receipt. There is now an official form that has been issued (cerfa 13566*1 you can get a copy by clicking HERE ).

Most of the article is about what is already in place although I still don't get the bit about DDSV because that is NOT mentioned in the said Décret other than the toilets must comply to health, safety and basic hygiene regulations and I have never heard about it before although that does not mean it does not exist. I would love to be able to see the bit of law that refers to this requirement, hyper link anyone?

You would be well advised to get a copy of a little booklet called "Les Locations Saisonnieres en Meubles" issued by the Ministère de l’économique des finances et de l’industrie which tells you how to do many things that are directly effected by French law and the penalties should you fail to meet the requirements. Usually you will get a copy if you join Gite de France or Clevacances. It's a very useful and helpful little booklet.

With regards to your cats and dog, we had a dog (until 4 months ago) and now three cats. We don't let them in bedrooms because people have allergies and can 'sniff' one out in seconds if so afflicted. Bit like smoking as well. We don't allow any animal of our own in the dinning area during meals and obviously never in the kitchen. Other than that we don't have any problems. Here's a strange bit of legislation the GDF inspector told us, we can refuse to take children (which we do) but we can't refuse dogs, weird but there you go. You get round this simply, if you don't want strange dogs in the house, by saying your full [;-)] .

There are new social charges rules which I discovered by accident. If you have gites the people you pay your charges to is changing apparently next year. I only know this because our documents were returned telling us to change and when I questioned them I discovered they had me down as owning 8 gites (I wish) when all I do is B&B so nothing changed for me. Perhaps having combinations of B&B and gites  means different tax and social charges regimes.

One thing I would say about articles in expat papers, always look for the French official document number and go read it for yourself because sometimes these papers get it wrong.. If your French is not up to it you will find that these documents are usually written grammatically correctly and translate to with a 99% accuracy via google or other translation software.

Good luck with your B&B and I hope you have a bumper season next year.

[Magnolia]

I cannot thank you enough Quillan for taking the time to send such a long and informative response and one that also puts my mind at rest (especially regarding the animals). Also, thanks to everyone else who's responded. You're all very kind.

[Wendy]

One thing you have to realise though is that that some 'couples' checking in want their privacy respected. Not all couples you may meet will be married...

We have had quite a few people spend a weekend here; they have booked over the phone, in 'her' name, and paid their bill on departure in cash. For obvious reasons. To ask them to record their personal details on their visit, to me, would be an invasion of privacy.

If you wish to apply this condition to your guests then do so; but all the same, respect those guests who want to stay with you 'incognito'. And you will meet them from time to time[:)]

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="Jura"]

One thing you have to realise though is that that some 'couples' checking in want their privacy respected. Not all couples you may meet will be married...

We have had quite a few people spend a weekend here; they have booked over the phone, in 'her' name, and paid their bill on departure in cash. For obvious reasons. To ask them to record their personal details on their visit, to me, would be an invasion of privacy.

If you wish to apply this condition to your guests then do so; but all the same, respect those guests who want to stay with you 'incognito'. And you will meet them from time to time[:)]

[/quote]

So are you saying that if this is the law we should break it so that people can have a dirty weekend without there wife finding out? OK by me if they pick up any fines I might incur and compensate me for any possible loss of business I might miss out on. But then I can't can I because I don't have their proper names and address's, I'm sorry but I don't think so. Quite frankly it's my house so you will obey my rules and if I want your name and address before you stay here then you either comply or turn round, walk away and have your dirty weekend somewhere else.

[Missy]

>>4 - The 'Direction Departementale des Services Veterinaires' will need to be involved to check health and safety rules are complied with<<

Wotsit got to do with the vets.... I thought it was B&B for 2 legged things not 4 legged ones....

Mental note to self for next trip to France : no hotels or B&B in Quillan (Aude) [6] [Www]  

[Cat]

Surprisingly, it is the DDSV that is responsible for supervising for the health and safety aspect of food transportation, preparation and sale in shops/restaurants and schools.

http://www.herault.pref.gouv.fr/grandsdossiers/missions_DDSV.shtm#publique

 

[woolybanana]

Not surprising really as much of what they deal with is meat and that comes from animals.

[tenniswitch]

This has been a very interesting thread for me as Mr. TW and I have been coming to France for more than 25 years and neither of us can remember the last time (if ever) we were asked for ID info when checking into a CdeH or hotel.  And, being from the US, we are most definitely not "European".  Can it be that Mr. TW's fluency in French makes the difference?  But, no, he didn't speak French any better than I did when we started.

Maybe it's because we always use credit cards?

 

[Cerise]

You can carry on and stay with us then.  We do ask people their name and address, but believe what they tell us.  Never ever been asked to prove ID in 30 years of staying in France so guess if I'm breaking the law so are loads of others.  In fact, last year stayed in very nice GdF chambre d'hotes not prebooked just went in off the street and I don't think they even asked us our names!

Unless there is a big secret that someone is not telling I don't think there are any new onerous rules for doing table d'hôte either.  Good hygiene and a licence for serving drinks are all that are required.  Our préfecture has got their act together and we've had some fairly fancy paperwork to fill in for the new registration requirements (we were already registered with them and the mairie), but the rules don't seem any different from before. We have 2 dogs and a cockatiel and apart from locking them up during meals (to prevent guests from feeding them!)  they have not proved a handicap either.

Although I do do evening meals, I'd like to do a great deal less - very hard work and not that profitable.  The main reason we do it is because there are few local restaurants out of season.  If I lived somewhere with a large number of eating places I'd certainly prefer not to do it.

 

[Kitty]

There's something about this in French News (the newspaper for ex-pats) this month.  A major chain has started asking for this information.  Does anyone have the link?