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Harrassment


Angie
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We have owned our holiday home for six years and use it for about 8 weeks per year. The house itself is not large but stands on six acres. Unfortunately on almost every occasion we are accosted at our front door (usually within minutes of our arrival which means that people are watching out for us) by a neighbour, someone in the village or someone we don’t even know with a variety of requests or queries. These have ranged from asking us to cut a long (100m hedge) which is not ours and this has been explained to the guy on many occasions, to asking us if they can graze horses on our land, telling us that someone from EDF called round and a summary of the problems they had, access requirements for a neighbour’s builder - the list is endless. In fact on a couple of occasions we have had to hide upstairs on the terrace and watch while people walk around our property knocking and looking through windows and trying door handles!! We feel like prisoners! Even when we are openly sitting on our front terrace with guests having a drink or eating our evening meal, French villagers will walk up our fairly long drive and engage in some pointless conversation.

Recently we decided to rent out the property and have had three couples so far this summer. The first couple phoned us within an hour of their arrival to say someone was banging on the downstairs bedroom window but they couldn’t understand what he wanted and he had left. On their description I decided it was the “hedge” man again. But what has really annoyed us is the third couple who were there last week were extremely upset by someone in the village querying some boundary issues with them. The guy became really stroppy with our clients because they didn’t speak French and actually followed them into the living room when they tried to walk away, gesticulating and being quite abusive. We now know he wants to sell some of his adjacent land and needed to clarify something – however he should not be bothering our guests with this.

Has anyone got any advice on what we can do to stop this constant harassment. Apart from being downright rude I really don’t know what else to do. We are going to have some gates installed over the winter but our neighbours have been known to nip through the hedge and walk across our garden so I am not confident this will stop anyone. We keep the garden and surrounds tidy and maintained, the house is new so in good condition, we don’t bother anyone and we pay our exorbitant taxes. Surely (even though we are English) we are entitled to the enjoyment of our property.

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Hi Steve.. Sounds like an awkward situation to say the least..

My initial thoughts are that the is clearly some 'issue' with one or more neighbors - be it land, ownership, or some historical 'issue' with a previous owner from far back..?

These things may be better off 'confronted' and dealt with - a fence and gate may only exacerbate the resentment.. Do you have a 'French' friend locally who could 'inquire' at the local café/bar/mairie as to any local knowledge on the situation? Who knows, these things can turn on a sixpence and a sudden new 'friendship' (or 'understanding') could suddenly work in your benefit..

However if this is just plain trespassing and bad behavior, then I personally would deal with it through the usual channels!

Just a thought..

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Steve Hi - I read your post last night and have slept on it in the hope that I can offer some constructive feedback / advice.....I've lived in a small French village for many years.

My main observations / suspicions are that:

1. You have not 'intergrated' into your local community. I know it's just a 'holiday home' but you need to make an effort, especially in small rural communities - no different anywhere in the world. I honestly think you would benefit hugely from getting your neighbours on-side, talking to them, understanding their issues and agreeing some 'terms of engagement' - all things which come naturally if you interact with people. Remember - you're the 'foreigner' - they've probably lived there all their lives. They only have 8 weeks a year to get to know you!

2. 'French Villagers' - i.e. the people that live there all year round (and also pay 'exorbitant taxes'!) are most probably curious, nosey - call it what you like. More than anything they probably just want to get to know you because of their own particular vested interests - unimportant to you (as can be seen from your post) but crucial to them. Imagine - 'people you don't even know talking to you', 'walking up your long drive and engaging in pointless conversations' - what world do you live in?! Fancy you neighbour getting stroppy because your renters didn't speak French - of course he got stroppy! It's his country, his langauge - just like Brits get stroppy with 'foreigners' who can't speak English in the UK!

3. Neighbours asking you questions about hedges, horse grazing, EDF calling round, access and boundary issues - all completely normal issues! Again, not important to you but very important to them.

I suggest you invite everyone round for aperos and have a damn good chat with them all! You'll notice a massive change in attitude and will benefit hugely.

Bit like the Holiday Home in Wales scenario if you ask me....

Simon :-)

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I can only advise that it is far better to be on good terms with your neighbours and Simon's advice seems fair. Your neighbours have things they want to discuss, tell you and probably grab you at the first opportunity they see you ... I agree it must be frustrating when you have just arrived and want to relax.

I would take Simon's advice .... invite all the neighbours for aperos. Let them have a bit of a snoop, they are probably curious to see inside the house, maybe they knew the previous people who lived there. And then, individually, explain that, no, it's not your hedge and you have no intention of cutting it And, yes, thank you for telling me about EDF's visit, very nice of you to keep an eye out for me. No, sorry, don't want your land, can't afford it. And no you can't graze your horses, sorry. But be friendly, approachable. A few bottles of wine and a few hours of your time may make the world of difference.
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I'm surprised you think of this as harassment, but I can understand why you wouldn't want your guests to be hassled. Is it actually that you just thought they were a bit peculiar, and had a laugh about them, and it's only when they started speaking to the people you lent your house to that it became a problem?

Anyway, I echo what the others suggest. You don't say where your house is, but I imagine it's in the country. If you're only there rarely then you will be a source of fascination for your neighbours, and they will want to know about you. They will find excuses to do this. I think you will have to be used to being a bit like the penguin pool at the zoo, being a spectacle without wanting to be! Indeed it may be that you are considered a bit weird because every time one of your neighbours tries to be friendly/neighbourly/asks a question about access you scuttle upstairs and hide like a frightened rabbit!

As others have said, you're the foreigners, so it behooves you to "fit in". You're only there 8 weeks of the year. People are asking you reasonable questions as your neighbours - they'll have difficulty catching you if you're there so rarely - and trying to help you, with the EDF info.

Even if you don't like people, or French people, grit your teeth and be prepared to improve your French by speaking to these people and, if you can bear it, invite them for aperos.

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Hello Steve, you might like to see it this way:  what are small and unimportant issues to you are much more important to your neighbours, who have been waiting to see you for months concerning the fence or hedge or whatever, besides being kind about the EDF matter. Remember that they have very little to occupy their minds in the country beyond their own affairs. Besides this, flogging land or grazing horses is important for them, much more so than for you, perhaps, so perhaps, find out who the people are and deal with them one at a time. A chore, but a bit of kindness and courtesy can do wonders, especially if you go to the people involved. Then explain to them that you have guests who you dont want disturbing, and they will eventually respond, I think.
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We have integrated into the village; we have several friends who are not neighbours, we attend evening markets during the summer, have taken our neighbour to a hospital appointment because the ambulance didn't turn up, chat to locals on walks around and spend money in the local bar/cafe, shops, restaurants.  We had our immediate neighbours (and not so immediate) around the first six months we were there for a meal and yes, plenty of wine and they remain friendly and wave (they do not constantly come round).  The neighbours we are talking about who are querying grazing, boundary issues are the same people who were offered the land when we first bought the property and who declined to buy it despite being given almost a year to decide.  They graze their horses on the property when we are not there regardless of whether we give them permission or not and only ask retrospecively.  They have damaged trees and plants when they bring their huge bowsers and have reversed their unregistered landrover into our garden wall. I would not tolerate this in the UK so why should I tolerate it here?  If you were having a BBQ in the UK and someone walked in off the street you'd be happy about that would you? I can imagine what would happen if I went round to their properties and did the same and said I "just wanted to get to know them" or started peering in through their windows of an evening. Do you think they'd invite me in for a drink.  We do interact with everyone we meet but frankly do not want to be best buddies with everyone that strolls up our driveway.

As for the hedge guy he knows perfectly well it is not our hedge - he just wants to hassle us because the guy who owns it is elderly and frankly can't cut it.  It would be a hugely expensive and time consuming job which would need to be done twice annually.  Why can't he speak to the Mairie about it like I have constantly asked him to do?  Its easier to pester us in the hope we will get fed up and do it ourselves. We have enough to maintain as it is without taking on neighbouring gardening needs aswell.

As for speaking the language, we have made the effort and have made great strides with it especially at our age, but when I've been on holiday to Thailand, Greece etc. unfortunately I did not speak sufficient Thai or Greek to engage in a conversation with the locals on boundary issues.  I can only assume that you speak the language of every foreign country you have visited on holiday?  I don't think therefore that it is reasonble for holidaymakers (ie clients) to speak fluent French before they book our holiday home.

As for "what world am I living in" I think it is a fantasy of the British that we think that everyone is "interested" or "curious" in us and just want to get to know us. Most French don't give a damn about the British and most only know their immediate French neighbours and no others, I know that for a fact in our village.  One French guy I work with in UK told me that the French only want to know you if its socially or financially beneficial to them and I believe he is right.

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Ah, Steve, you are dealing with what I call Mr Cochon (actually, Mr. Tete de Merde) who roots everywhere regardless and is only interested in himself. Him you gotta be firm with. Go round there with a good translator and read the riot act, lay it down, say NO and mean it, and warn the Mairie that there are issues. And tell him to keep off your land. Don't mess with this type at all, no kindness, just use the metaphorical bulldozer or shotgun up his backside!

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I could reduce what is probably going to be a long posting down to two key words, communication and perspective.

At first I thought this may be a wind up from a troll until I saw that Steve had joined in 2005 and made many other postings.

I have exactly the same issues when I return to my property in the UK where I spend about as much time as Steve does in France, my perspective however is to be delighted to have such loyal, friendly and watchfull long term neighbours, there are no communication difficulties, we speak the same language to the same degree of fluency (except mine is no longer as good as theirs) in most cases we have known each other more than a quarter of a century.

There are also other neighbours from properties backing and siding on to my plot whom I dont know anywhere near as well, some of them have boundary issues and some have had planning issues with my now 2 properties, it comes as no surprise that they pounce on me when I am in residence to vent what is sometimes their frustration, there have also in the past been issues with one lot of tenants although now I have excellent tenants since 2 years, not having known these people as long or as well as my closer neighbours they do treat me a bit as a foreigner and act in a similar way as your neighbours do, my gates are always open and whilst my close neighbours will pop in whenever they like for a chat or to borrow something and be completely at ease, the other neighbours will march up somewhat aggressively and lead forth, I understand this, its unease, fear and ignorance, they neither know me well nor understand my situation.

I can sort of understand you wanting your privacy but I can tell you that after having lived here in France more than 6 years with the same open door policy and making every effort to integrate with the community there are only 2 people in a village of 1300 who will speak to me, one a neighbour backing on in a similar way to those in the UK and with similar boundary/planning issues and one an old retired Poilu who I see twice a year at the remembrance ceremonies, I really wish that I could have the level of interaction with my French neighbours that you do, even the Maire asked his secretary if I wanted to go to the vin d'honneur after the defilée, he was standing next to me at the time, again fear and ignorance.

I could however easily not even have the one neighbour to speak to had I taken a different perspective and not given him a second chance to make a first impression, he dropped by and introduced himself and I invited him in to take a look around, he was naturally curious as the property had been abandoned for close to a decade, to my consternation he lit up a cigarette before walking in, unease no doubt, in short order he could probably tell from my expression that i wasnt impressed so started looking around for an ashtray, not having found one he ground it out onto my carrelage with his heel [:(]

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There were more postings since composing mine and I now better understand the situation given more details and completely understand your situation Steve, Wooly is spot on with his advice.

Frankly short of enclosing all our land and keeping the gates closed you are going to have a real problem with trespass, the word does not translate and most French just cannot comprehend the concept although they wont usually cut through or climb over a fence or gates, the sort of people that you are dealing with are even less likely to understand or respect your privacy.

There is a private tennis court behind me which I have the key to, people used to sneak onto it across my land walking right through my stock of building materials, they are trespassing on both my land and the tennis court, I have repeatedly closed off the small gap they were squeezing through but each time I go back to the UK the grillage has usually been cut, I am concerned that my materials will go walkies as has happened a few times and also for my liability should one of these guys injure themselves on my property as I no longer have insurance.

A couple of weeks ago I was awaken at 6am by a crashing noise on the tole bac acier roof, in the past it has been the crows dropping nuts onto it to break the kernels but its the wrong time of year, I looked out of my window and saw that my side gate to my courtyard was open (I always close it at night) and thought that the main property was being burgled, I threw on my dressing gown and was crossing the courtyard when I saw a thickset guy creeping out the gate, I rugby tackled him to the ground (he did seem to fall easily) and he kept screaming "c'est moi, on se connait!" then I saw the tennis ball roll out from under him [I]

He and his mates were blind drunk, after une nuit blanche they had decided to play a few games of tennis (when they have played in the evenings they rehydrate with whiskey) they seemd to think that it was perfectly OK to open my gate and come in at 6am to retrieve a lost ball because they had first rung the doorbell which hasnt worked for years.

I have caught up with them since when they were sober(ish) and had it out with them but they really just dont get the whole trespass thing or even tappage nocturne, I told him that I keep a loaded shotgun by the bed and that he was very lucky because had the doorbell worked he would have got far worse than a rugby tackle, they sort of understood that

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[quote user="Steve"]

We have integrated into the village; we have several friends who are not neighbours, we attend evening markets during the summer, have taken our neighbour to a hospital appointment because the ambulance didn't turn up, chat to locals on walks around and spend money in the local bar/cafe, shops, restaurants.  We had our immediate neighbours (and not so immediate) around the first six months we were there for a meal and yes, plenty of wine and they remain friendly and wave (they do not constantly come round).  The neighbours we are talking about who are querying grazing, boundary issues are the same people who were offered the land when we first bought the property and who declined to buy it despite being given almost a year to decide.  They graze their horses on the property when we are not there regardless of whether we give them permission or not and only ask retrospecively.  They have damaged trees and plants when they bring their huge bowsers and have reversed their unregistered landrover into our garden wall. I would not tolerate this in the UK so why should I tolerate it here?  If you were having a BBQ in the UK and someone walked in off the street you'd be happy about that would you? I can imagine what would happen if I went round to their properties and did the same and said I "just wanted to get to know them" or started peering in through their windows of an evening. Do you think they'd invite me in for a drink.  We do interact with everyone we meet but frankly do not want to be best buddies with everyone that strolls up our driveway.

As for the hedge guy he knows perfectly well it is not our hedge - he just wants to hassle us because the guy who owns it is elderly and frankly can't cut it.  It would be a hugely expensive and time consuming job which would need to be done twice annually.  Why can't he speak to the Mairie about it like I have constantly asked him to do?  Its easier to pester us in the hope we will get fed up and do it ourselves. We have enough to maintain as it is without taking on neighbouring gardening needs aswell.

As for speaking the language, we have made the effort and have made great strides with it especially at our age, but when I've been on holiday to Thailand, Greece etc. unfortunately I did not speak sufficient Thai or Greek to engage in a conversation with the locals on boundary issues.  I can only assume that you speak the language of every foreign country you have visited on holiday?  I don't think therefore that it is reasonble for holidaymakers (ie clients) to speak fluent French before they book our holiday home.

As for "what world am I living in" I think it is a fantasy of the British that we think that everyone is "interested" or "curious" in us and just want to get to know us. Most French don't give a damn about the British and most only know their immediate French neighbours and no others, I know that for a fact in our village.  One French guy I work with in UK told me that the French only want to know you if its socially or financially beneficial to them and I believe he is right.

[/quote]

Wow Steve - with a response and reaction like that - no wonder you have issues where you have your holiday home ! You've missed the point and misinterpreted most of the points already made to you - no wonder there's a communication issue! It's hard to understand what exactly YOU have done to respond to or rectify any of the very minor issues you've highlighted.

So - now I'll give you the wisdom of my 'pre-slept-on' advice.....2 choices....

1. Build a brick wall around your property, put barbed wire on top and mine your long driveway.

or

2. Sell up and move somewhere where the 'villagers' aren't so irritating for you.

Simon :-)

 

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I don't know if you have any fencing etc on your side of the 100 metre fence, but if you don't, how would you feel if you came back next year and found that the whole hedge had been remove leaving your land borderless and exposed?

If you benefit from this hedge , would it hurt to give the old boy a hand twice a year? Or help him cut it down to a height he can manage and keep under control?
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I would be very careful about cutting the hedge without explicit, and written, agreement from the owner especially with all the other problems. Unlike in the UK where anything hanging over in to my garden I can cut the opposite, legally, in France applies as was discussed some time back on the forum. It's the owners responsibility to cut it or get a contractor in, if you cut it then you have broken the law and he can take you to court. Normally never happens but somebody could become pedantic you never know.

You might consider visiting the mayor. Whilst he may not be prepared to do anything he might be able to tell you whats going on and more importantly why.

I think the best idea is for you to shell out some money. If the border is not already clearly and officially marked I would get a 'Geometric' in to do it then put a fence up with gates (that you can lock) where you need them. Going to cost a few grand perhaps but look at it from the point of view that's it's a couple of weeks takings on the renting the property out. If the fence and/or gates are then forced and damaged it becomes a criminal affair and you can call the Gendarmes in. I think Wooly is right on with his comments.

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Love the words "As for speaking the language, we have made the effort and have made great strides with it especially at our age". Those nasty locals who have lived in the village all of their lives should take your age into account and learn to speak English just for you.

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I would say, before you do anything else make sure you are reglo with your renting out. If you do start kicking up then someone could report you.

In my time in France I have been accueillant, meme tres accueillant, brusque and when it called for retalitated and I suppose been considered mean and nasty when I have retaliated, I'll take so much, but I'll not be pushed too far either. 

Do the french understand trespass, well, chez eux they do, that some chose to ignore common decency and behaviour is not something I would be happy with.

The advice to start afresh in addressing this is a good idea. My first port of call would be the Maire and just tell them the story and what your plans are.

I would also have a 'proprietaire privé' sign at the gate, a decent sized one, even saying 'interdit d'entrer' too.

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Does the OP realise by law he must register his property with the local mairie if he is letting it out for payment? Therefore the property if properly registered will already be known to the local maire and normally the maire does not get involved in domestic disputes between neighbours, he might send an adjoint round but not very often unless it impedes on the whole commune.
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I think some of the comments here are a bit off really. This guy/couple have a holiday home and are having problems which they shouldn't have. They also run it as a business i.e. renting it out. People wondering around the place and 'having a go' at their clients is bang out of order.

Learning a new language when your old  is very difficult, you don't hear 'the song' any more and lets face it French is not the easiest language to learn from scratch. I personally openly admit I slaughter the language as all I have had is the Michel Thomas CD's. I would love to go on an immersion course at Montpelier but it's in August and I am working so that's not going to happen. There are loads and loads of Brits with second homes or have even moved here permanently who speak just enough to order a coffee. I wonder how many Brits have holiday homes in Wales and how many attempt to learn Welsh, which is by the way the first language of Wales? How many Brits go to Spain and can't speak Spanish? I have to admit the Spanish are far more switched on than the French in that they try to learn English because it's business and they want the money from the Brits.

Why do these people have to go out of their way to integrate, they only spend a very short time in France every year. They have a couple of friends here which is good but why does everyone assume others want to have friends here in France. You don't go looking for friends in life they just happen wherever you are. It's like neighboures, just because you live next door to them you don't have to be best mates. In fact you don't even have to talk to them if you don't want, it's not obligatory.

I think the answer to this couples problem is as I said earlier, fence the land off but make sure that you are dead sure where the boundary really is (hence get a geometric to marki it out for you) else I can see further problems down the line. OK its going to cost but at least, in theory, they can sleep without worry at night about 'the hedge man' banging on their Gite's door when paying guests are there nor should they have to hide in the bedroom when they are there.

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[quote user="Val_2"]Does the OP realise by law he must register his property with the local mairie if he is letting it out for payment? Therefore the property if properly registered will already be known to the local maire and normally the maire does not get involved in domestic disputes between neighbours, he might send an adjoint round but not very often unless it impedes on the whole commune.[/quote]

I was under the impression, but I stand to be corrected, only Chambres D'Hotes need to be registered.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

Learning a new language when your old  is very difficult, you don't hear 'the song' any more and lets face it French is not the easiest language to learn from scratch.

I think the answer to this couples problem is as I said earlier, fence the land off but make sure that you are dead sure where the boundary really is (hence get a geometric to marki it out for you) else I can see further problems down the line. OK its going to cost but at least, in theory, they can sleep without worry at night about 'the hedge man' banging on their Gite's door when paying guests are there nor should they have to hide in the bedroom when they are there.

[/quote]

Couple of things Quillan....

1. Who on earth mentioned anything about learning French (apart from Steve that is!)

2. I think the answer to this couples problems is communication (or lack of!)

I find the 'pomposity' of the OP quite incredulous.......

Simon :-)

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