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Opening a Cafe


tomh
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Good morning everyone.

I'm hoping for advice & opinions on opening a Cafe.

First some background.

My friend, lives in France, Vienne Department, & has for 6 years, very fluent French speaker.

I would like to move to France, I do like the lifestyle & the people.

My concern is, how to make a living.

It seems to be very difficult to gain any form of employment in France, for an "outsider" & it seems, most ex pats are either

financially secure or work for themselves.

France, on paper, is a more (slightly) prosperous society than the UK, although it is hard to see it on the ground.

We have looked at some trading concerns, in various locations, often they are run by UK ex pats.

While they tend to be the traditional french cafe, serving food & alcohol, quite often the takings seem very low for the

opening hours.

We do not really want to get into food & alcohol, but more follow the model of a boutique coffee shop, serving high

quality coffee's & snack type foods.

More akin to a Costa coffee operation, but with a wider range of snacks.

(Costa, Starbucks etc. are opening rapidly in France)

Trends change, traditional cafe bars in France, are closing at an alarming rate.

A lot of the ones I have visited, are dirty, unfriendly & expensive & wouldn't survive in any country.

We would need to find a location where there was sufficient custom, so a fair sized town, i.e. 20,000 people or with

a lot of visitors.

Assuming we can find this, & purchase a building with commercial potential, what is the general opinnion on:

People tell me the French would prefer NOT to patronise an establishment run by "foreigners"

The taxes. From my understanding, 50% of net profit is taken in tax & social charges. Is there anything else?

Thanks in advance,

Tom.

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I suggest you read 'A Year in the Merde' by Stephen Clarke, which is a light-hearted description of the author's experience of running such an establishment, although not actually owned by him.

As far as running any type of business in France goes, recent changes have made it less onerous to run a small-scale enterprise as a sole trader, but you will still encounter the high charges and tedious bureaucracy once your turnover increases to the level that equates to earning a living wage, worse still if you are contemplating employing anybody. Non-French do succeed in opening businesses in France, and seem perfectly happy, but few if any get rich.

Edit - the Forum software would not allow me to give the name of the book, despite it being freely on sale and not a top-shelf or under-the-counter jobby. The disallowed word is something like M3RD3.

And by the way, don't bother with the 'M*rde Actually' follow-up title which is utter rubbish.

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Just to give a flavour of the business climate both MacDonalds and Subway have closed in our town centre (75,000 people) while the "dirty little cafés that would close anywhere" are still hanging on because Pierre went to school with Paul who brings in his rugby mates and the mayor is having an affair with the owner's wife's sister, and they  act as a go-between in innumerable 'deals' that aren't actually criminal, and the patron's brother has a friend who has a vineyard and they get the wine at a special price...etc. etc.

It is also a centre for heated discussion in demotic French with the owner taking the lead...

Costa and Starbucks may well succeed in the largest cities with a cosmopolitan clientèle

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/apr2006/gb20060420_895395.htm

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Ha - brilliant advice Will re. the Stephen Clarke book! Certainly resonated with me when I was running a business.

The rest of Will's advice is spot on too. But on a practical note, if you get as far as opening the cafe, look up a company called Patis-Servis. They supply pastries/croissants etc of exceptional quality. We used to use them and the guests adored their produce.

Good luck!
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Most Brit expats in France are retirees or second home owners, with a surprisingly low number in employment according to Eurostat.

The only thing I know about Cafes in France is according to various reports they are sadly a dying breed in fast decline, with owners finding them uneconomic to run due to high costs and dwindling customer numbers, as they cannot compete with the likes of Macdonalds. France is Macdonalds fasting growing market!

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"Trends change, traditional cafe bars in France, are closing at an alarming rate.

A lot of the ones I have visited, are dirty, unfriendly & expensive & wouldn't survive in any country."

None have closed around here. None are either dirty or expensive. In my opinion they serve the best coffee in the world.

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I introduced the red herring of MacDonalds (which has nothing to do with  French cafés) to show how American style franchises which have  a great success world-wide do not necessarily transplant onto French soil.

As I said above both Subway and Macdo have failed even in a town  a substantial size, and I am willing to bet there are none of these establishments in villages in 'La France Profonde'

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[quote user="Sprogster"]France is Macdonalds fasting growing market![/quote]

No, France is Macdonalds 2nd largest market after the USA

and you may like to read THIS as to the reasons why.

A couple of paragraphs from the link:

"McDonald's, meanwhile, offers all kinds of Frenchified dishes, from the

Alpine burger with three different kinds of cheese to tasty little gallette des rois, or King's Cakes, popular after Christmas and sold by all the bakeries."

"And if you like good meat (who doesn't?!), then McDonald's France is clearly superior. In the U.S., McDonald's says

its cattle are mostly corn-fed. While the company doesn't address on

its site whether growth hormones and growth-promoting antibiotics are

added to the animal feed consumed by the animals it buys, it's a

reasonable assumption that they are.

French

cattle are all grass fed, which many argue makes them tastier. Growth

hormones are illegal here and each animal has a passport showing where

it was born, raised, and slaughtered, according to McDonald's France.

That's called traceability, and we don't yet have such a national system

in place."

There is a Macdonalds in our nearest town (pop 12000) and I have yet to see more than 10 people in it - are they subsidised?

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It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens with local cafés and restaurants from this summer. We have a Macdonalds opening in a couple of months on the outskirts of our town near a very popular attraction, which is expecting to draw the main part of their business from visitors to the attraction. I imagine many families will stay at Macdonalds who would have driven 5 minutes up the road to have drinks and snacks or meals in our attractive little town.

It would be good if lots of the youngsters who mooch around graffitti-ing walls etc also head off  to Macdonalds for the evening; we have large numbers who come to college Monday to Friday, and are at a loose end in the evenings; most of the cafés and restaurants are too expensive for them, but maybe Madonalds will prove a big draw; fingers crossed!  [:D]

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McDo's are beautifully adaptable, when we visited New England we would go in and get lobster sandwiches and they were just that, not fried or bbq'd or anything like that.

The best cafe's for me are in Italy or Belgium, love the coffee in both.

 

If I wanted to go to a café in France, then there are two criteria I use. It's either a patisserie that sells a hot drink and I can get a delicious artisanale cake. Or a trad cafe and people can buy alcoholic drinks as well as hot and cold drinks and they sell snacks and croissants. When I'm out with girl friends or alone, I would always go for the former and when with husband the latter.

And in France we would never go to Starbucks, Caffe Nero or Costa or any other simple cafe, but that is just us.

 

 

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[quote user="idun"]

If I wanted to go to a café in France, then there are two criteria I use. It's either a patisserie that sells a hot drink and I can get a delicious artisanale cake. Or a trad cafe and people can buy alcoholic drinks as well as hot and cold drinks and they sell snacks and croissants. When I'm out with girl friends or alone, I would always go for the former and when with husband the latter.

And in France we would never go to Starbucks, Caffe Nero or Costa or any other simple cafe, but that is just us.

 

 

[/quote]

I would never dream of going to any of those in France, either - and it's very rarely I would enter them in England.

In France we regularly have coffee, wine, hot chocolate, vin chaud, depending on the time of year, in local cafés and restaurants.One is a boulangerie/patisserie, which also does drinks and meals, one doesn't have a 'drinks only' licence, but does all other sorts of drinks and meals and is beautifully situated, plus charges €1.30 for a coffee, which is less than most around here, two do just about any drink and limited meals. Of the others, one charges high prices, so we never go there, one charged us the earth for mineral water, which I particularly fancied for some reason, and we haven't been there since as it seemed a rip-off, one charged a fortune for their delicious cake, so we've never gone back, one seemd not very clean - so ditto. Of the rest, we occasionally pop in for a meal or a drink, just to see what they're like - quite a lot of businesses here only survive one season - some not even that, and most seem to undergo an expensive make-over whenever they change hands.

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Sit in and eat a cake in a top class patisserie and in my neck of the woods, it was very expensive. Still it is in Betty's in York too. I don't really drink and sometimes I like a treat and having something I don't make at home.

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Well, thank you one and all for your comments.

I worked in France most of 2011, Normandie. But for a UK engineering company.

I have friends in other areas.

I agree, that most of the people I know, from the UK who live in France, don't seek employment, but opt for some

form of self employment. Some say, seeking employment was a waste of time, when so many French natives were

applying for the work.

I guess it is regional though.

Of the one or two who gained work, it was a one year contract & then over.

Many seem to live a semi retired life (& why not).

Knowing you customer/market is so important.

And so many have shut down, they can't all be behind the times.

It's like the village shop, everyone mourns it's passing, but who actually used it?

Thanks All !!!

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Perhaps McDonalds demonstrate how to run a successful business. They tailor their menus to the company in which they operate. Plus, they have items that are available for a limited period. I presume this increases trade but can also enable them to gauge how they can change their menus.

I have seen pubs in the UK have new owners who go in and change everything and wonder why they loose the customers.

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Thanks Will.

I'll get the book.

I'm not out to get rich, just have a decent quality of life.

I choose France because my friend lives there & likes it, otherwise it doesn't appeal to me.

Not the country or the people, but the way everything is so regulated.

It almost feels anti business.

Tom.

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[quote user="PaulT"]

Perhaps McDonalds demonstrate how to run a successful business. They tailor their menus to the company in which they operate. Plus, they have items that are available for a limited period. I presume this increases trade but can also enable them to gauge how they can change their menus.

[/quote]

McDonalds & other big chains, do know how to run a business, also where to locate one. Rarely do they get it wrong.

The move with big money & a well known brand image.

There is a lot of mileage in what you get may be mediocre, but at least you know what you will get.

`

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[quote user="tomh"][quote user="PaulT"]

Perhaps McDonalds demonstrate how to run a successful business. They tailor their menus to the company in which they operate. Plus, they have items that are available for a limited period. I presume this increases trade but can also enable them to gauge how they can change their menus.

[/quote]

McDonalds & other big chains, do know how to run a business, also where to locate one. Rarely do they get it wrong.

The move with big money & a well known brand image.

There is a lot of mileage in what you get may be mediocre, but at least you know what you will get.

`

[/quote]

They invented the idea of 'Quality' as in 'Quality control'. It is sh1t, but it is always the same sh1t.[:D]

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I must disagree with you Norman on McDonald's. I had never been into one until last year, but one day due to our bad planning we we were out of the French time zone for a "late lunch", so we suddenly came across a McD's and because of hunger and desperation we entered the building, well the  chicken salad we chose was excellent and it was interesting to be able to get a beer or a glass of wine, certainly not possible in the UK or I believe in the USA. So I think that your comment that their products are Shit is a little unkind and OT
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Well you have been much more recently than I have, so I have to accept what you say.

I last stopped( I was being given a lift so I was  rather obliged to stop)  in the one at Millau that José Bové had taken apart a few months earlier in protest against 'la Malbouffe'

At that time the nearest thing to a salad was a couple of wilted lettuce leaves and a few slices of unripe tomato, with a 'dressing' served in a sort of long envelope like you sometime get for sugar.

There were the cotton- wool buns and the fat-congealed burger topped with a slice of plastic-looking cheese.

I suppose they have evolved...

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I guess it all must be regional when it comes to who does what and how many customers they have.

I tried a 'Quick' burger place in Perpignan because I thought knowing the French theirs should be much better. One mouthful, nearly vomited and left. I know of three McDonald's, Limoux, Carcassonne and Perpignan and believe me they are very well attended and at lunchtime your better off getting a take away because you won't find a seat in any of them (plus there is the screaming kids to deal with). Our latest import in Carcassonne is KFC, much better quality than its UK counterpart and that's also full at lunchtime. There are still some very good restaurants around where you can get a three course meal (buffet starter) with aperitif and wine for €12,50. If you don't get a seat before 12:10 forget it.

The French don't really have much foreign food either. Try and find a curry restaurant round here for instance, there's one, only one, in Perpignan and your looking at between €60 and €80 a head and that was for a take away which would have cost us about £20 for both of us in the UK and their type of curry is quite weak compared to what we associate with in the UK. Cheap Asiatic food (Chinese) is difficult to find although not to bad down here as we are near to Spain and they have a lot at very cheap prices.

In our local Town there is no coffee bar but there is seven pizzeria's for some strange reason and there are only 3,000 inhabitants.

The secret to any new enterprise is research and I think in France it has to be very location orientated because as the McDonald's comments show things can vary dramatically for one place to another.

Good luck.

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Our local McDo's has a really nice coffee shop attache selling all the usual fancy coffees, croissant, pain au chocolate and other cakes, we don't go often but for a breakfast on the go - it's excellent value for money
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  • 1 month later...
I know of a fellow in Quillan ( or there abouts ) that can produce a good meal if asked

Mind you, you might have to wait for the arrival of the other guests to turn up

Particularly the Dutch Politician who was always late for meals, as I remember

Sound Advice, Good luck

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