Mail on Sunday Property Section

[Val_2]

I sit on the controlling board of our local Tourist Office which covers a fair area and we do not give out grants as mentioned. In fact we have our end of season meeting next monday night to see the "results" of this season, of which we know already is a good 40% down on last year when you couldn't get a bed for love nor money here. Also a lot of people are under the misconception of the word Gîte and what it stands for. These were originally set up to help poor farmers bring in a bit of extra income and not to make a living from it full time, from improving and renovating old run down cottages which used to be what farm hands lived in in ye olde days. These days anyone who has an odd building for renovation on their property or indeed their main holiday cottage calls them Gîtes and some I have seen,I wouldn't let my cats stay there.

[Blackadder<IMG src="http:forums.livingfrance.comimagesline.gif"><BR>Blackadder<BR>Keighley and Creuse]

From my very limited 'knowledge' it is very much a localised or set of localised problems. In some areas there are far too many gites/chambres de hotes for the number of tourists, in others (the Vendee this summer for us!) a lack of accommodation. The trouble is that at the few peak times there may be for example 1 million people needing 1 million beds, the rest of the time maybe 250,000 people and the same number of beds. so thats 3 in 4 beds 'unsold'.

In this ever evolving society it seems that owners need to keep updating both their ideas and their property and seek out a specific market, be it walkers through Walking Weekly or cyclists through Cycling Weekly...etc

 

We have some friends who moved out last year with Gite and B and B in mind, or maybe a campsite or.....no definitive plan which may be a good 'fluid' thing. But without good market research surely a recipe for failure. It does appear to me that some people naively watch these place in the sun type programmes and move lock stock and barrel to live the good life. I think people who take the trouble to research and utilise Forums like this, have more about them and may well do better than simply putting a pin in the map (it does happen)

Best of luck to anyone in the position or likely to encounter the position. Those contemplating it....as a frequent gite renter...i look for a pool, grounds for the kids to play in etc...ask all your friends relatives what they would ideally require (if the family market is indeed your market)

[Hegs]

It's a question of supply AND demand. I don't own a gite, but what I find bizarre is that almost nobody starting or running gite businesses seems to do any real marketing, just basic promotion to get themselves a part of the existing "gite pie". The standard approach seems to be:

1. Put up website - often only in English
2. Contact Chez Nous, GdF etc
3. Stop

What about searching out new, untapped markets in the UK or further abroad? From my travels I know at least a couple of new markets - and large ones - who would love to hire gites, but they don't know actually know about the concept of a gite, or how to find one, or even where is where in France.

And what about promoting the area your business is located in? Where I live there are great attractions which don't feature in any tourist guide and only have the odd line or two on the odd website, gites are not generic, to come to your gite people will obviously need to want to come to your area. Put in the effort here, along with other gite owners and it can only help, France is a big place and potential holidays  makers - particularly first timers - won't have a clue why your area is better than others.

[Russethouse]

Hegs, I think you have a point. My sig here makes it pretty clear that I belong to a club interested in Quimper, actually Quimper Pottery.

We are not a huge club but quite a few members do make the journey to Quimper (and also Malicorne and Devres)some on a regular basis, and some in groups. Yet I have never even had so much as an enquiry about advertising or reciprocal links from either Gite owners or B&B proprietors.......

[Tresco]

Recently two groups of friends of mine have booked gites on the internet. Both were very unsatisfactory experiences. One was described as modernised, and the photographs looked lovely, but the dishwasher was right next to the point where the septic tank had to be opened for emptying, (frequently, owing to a fault in an upstairs loo, which English people who had never owned a septic tank could not possibly hoe to understand, and the house, advertised as modernised, had only been modernised to the extant that it had a new boiler.

The second house, was advertised as having a swimming pool, had a blow up pool that you needed to climb up into. Also, the gite was on the first floor, the resident proprietors had a bedroom which they used in the same area as the 'gite', their child and dog made frequenty use of the 'private' garden, and the gite was on the first floor; not on the ground floor as indicated. The fact that these owners asked my friends to look after their child while they went out to the restaurant just about capped it all. Incidentally, this property is now on the market.

Those of you that are offering a quality service, keep at it, spell out exactly what you are offering, its the dissimulators that will go by the wayside.

 

[Kaz2]

Having done a tremendous amount of research and paperwork and signed numerous copies of numerous documents (as is the way in France, and I wouldn't moan about it as I have chosen to live there!) I can say that there are a few grants remaining in a few areas. And yes the money has gone into the bank. I very much hope that the majority of people you are talking about have not researched the project and are not doing a certifiate in marketing  OUr gites will be second income and we hope to survive - indeed live a simple life growing our own produce. The 3 epis gites de france certification wil, I hope, show the quality of the accommodation and welcome.

Kaz2 79 - good ol' undiscovered deux sevres or is it???

- would love to know who Kaz1 is!!!

 

[Paolo]

Quote:

“Those of you that are offering a quality service, keep at it, spell out exactly what you are offering, its the dissimulators that will go by the wayside.”

 

I think this is what it all boils down to. There may be an over-supply of gites in many areas but there is also a lot of dross, and you can still stand out from the rest by doing things right.

 

This goes back to a question at the beginning of this thread asked by Pamela who is relocating to France next year and wants to start a gite business:

 

“as existing gite owners / business people, what would your one piece of advice be to 'new comers' like myself hoping to enter this market.”

Assuming you have moved and bought a place, my one piece of advice would be: differentiate. By this I mean offer things that your competition does not – be different, be noticed.

 

As one example of how I differentiate, if you take the very first step in the renting chain, your website.

 

I took quite a while putting together a page on the village, the area and the region, which has links and information on all the best things about my location. For every village or attraction mentioned I have looked for the best site to link to that is dedicated to that village or attraction. I scoured the internet for travel articles from magazines, newspapers and guidebooks that are published online, and I link to them, as if to say ‘don’t take my word for it, here is what others think’. Next I will add pictures of as many places mentioned as I can – I may know all about them, but they will just be names to most people.

 

Why bother with this? Because people choose their holidays by location first, accommodation second. So it makes sense to sell your location at least as much as your property.

 

If you make your site a genuinely useful resource for your location, you have a ready audience of potential renters right there on your site where you want them.

 

You also are more likely to get remembered, and bookmarked. And people will think – if you go to this much trouble over your website, then you must also make an effort with your gite, i.e. it won’t be a dump!

 

I also have a page of beautiful photos taken in January, on a page titled ‘What’s it like in winter?’ to plant the idea of taking a break in the off-season in a place that is beautiful, warmish, and less crowded than usual. Now I will add a similar page for early autumn (spring and summer take care of themselves).

 

I have seen a great many websites for French rental accommodation, and only a handful bother to do something similar. That’s good news for those that do.

 

There are many, many other ways to differentiate, all the way down the renting chain, which I won’t bore you with. If you DO want to be bored by them, I write an occasional (free) newsletter on this for holiday rental owners – you can see back issues by clicking on the link in my signature below.

 

 Paolo

[Pamela]

Thanks Paolo - and everyone else that has contributed to this thread - have been reading with great interest.  It has previously struck me when renting gites that much of the marketing that appeared to be done was limited in the extreme.  First of all I tend to do all my holiday bookings via the web - I have previously (about 10 years ago) used a brochure (VF? possibly? cant really remember) and to my mind the extremely limited information found in these brochures is no way to base a decision on - for me - what is supposed to be 2 of the best weeks of the year!!

Searching for rental accomodation / gites / houses to rent - call them what you will - on the internet has not always been a straightforward business.  (For example if I want to rent somewhere in a specific town or area I would expect a search for the "town name" and "rental accomodation" or "gite" to come up with a hit if your business was anywhere near there - however the 'hits' are limited in the extreme in some areas. Almost certainly not an indication of a lack of 'beds' in the area - rather a poor internet marketing strategy.

As a Marketing Manager in 'real life' the promotion and marketing of any business (gites or otherwise) that we undertake in France will be my responsibility (hubby gets to do all the building work and rennovations) and my over-riding feeling at the moment is that I have far more ideas of what I could do in this area than I have seen on many web sites.

Much of what Paolo says about the web site being a resource is exactly how I am intending to approach the project - so I am encouraged to see that my belief that I could really make a difference in the promotion of our business is probably not mistaken.  (I like the idea of the January photographs - I'll be borrowing that particular one!!)

One final point / question to ask - the point was raised about the situation regarding the ferry crossings - P&O cutting back etc.  Surely at this moment there have never been so many ways to get all over France with the cheap airlines flying from so many different UK airports?  Even for the 'family market' (which is to my knowledge definately not the whole picture - and perhaps in some areas not even the main focus?) these airlines offer extremely good value for money - even when combined with car hire - and certainly a flight to Toulouse or Montpellier certainly beats the long drive from 'north of Watford' with two screaming kids in the car!!

We will continue with our plans - which are to continue researching everything and anything remotely useful!  We are flying to Pau in February for a further fact finding / "looking at properties to get a feel for the opportunities"  trip (67quid for 2 adults return!) and hope to put our house in the UK on the market around May/June.

Now that I have found this great resource I will be visiting regularly and surely will have further questions - in the meantime I'm off to surf all the links in everyone's signatures.

many thanks for sharing your experiences

Pamela

[Russethouse]

Good Luck Pamela, you certainly seem to be setting off with the right aproach, however I have to add something to your comment about families using air rather than sea for travel. Although there certainly are a good choice of methods for 'getting there' I think sea will remain a favorite for gite travel for families, simply because the air luggage allowance is miserly if you have children to cope with for a fortnight plus car hire to factor in - of course if you were to cater to families who would not be able to transport as much as they might like AND get good rates from car hire companies.....you may be on a winner !

[letrangere]

Gay, your comment about flying to France for a Gite stay rings so true.  We currently have no other choice and, believe me, it can be tricky.  One issue that particularly grates with us is coming home.  For what to do with the unfinished jars of jams, mustard, mayonnaise, olive oil, vinegars and even, if you miscalculate, wine that are inevitably left over at the end of a stay.   I often think Gite owners love us for what we are forced to leave behind!  M

[Quillan]

[quote]Gay, your comment about flying to France for a Gite stay rings so true. We currently have no other choice and, believe me, it can be tricky. One issue that particularly grates with us is coming home...[/quote]

I think I read on this forum and somewhere else that some airlines will be charging £50 for any luggage that goes in the hold. Although the weight limit on hand luggage has been increased it still a bit of limit if you have to come over with sheets and things for a gite. I know most owners can supply sheets etc at an extra cost but then thats extra money added to the total holiday cost. Of course if you are coming from the UK then it's not a problem as most people in Europe drive to their holiday accommodation.

[GRT17]

[quote]I think I read on this forum and somewhere else that some airlines will be charging £50 for any luggage that goes in the hold. Although the weight limit on hand luggage has been increased it still a b...[/quote]

RE. Families and flying.

We have had families that have flown out for a week or even ten days. Sometimes this can be a cheaper, quicker option if the flights are very cheap and convenient to where they live. Couples especially seem to like to fly / drive.

We include bed linen in the rental fee so no problem there.

Re. MWJs comment about leaving behind bottles of olive oil etc. for the hosts.

We leave these things in our house for our guests to use and ask them to replace items as they get used up. Obviously perishables such as butter are not left lurking in the fridge but oil, vinegar, sugar, tea / coffee etc. are all O.K. So far the system has worked well.

Gill

[Russethouse]

A friend recently visited from France and was told that the limit within Europe on ALL flights will soon be 20kg max.

I agree with Gill, fly drive for couples, esp for a week, is an attractive option, but for youngish families it may not be so good(IMHO,but then I like to take the kitchen sink !!)

I guess it all depends on your location and which market you are aiming at.

[Mpprh]

Hi

Interesting to read about the importance of marketing. I agree 100% that it is complex, but crucial. Done properly, internet marketing is cheaper than pure advertising.

And then I notice concern that reduced ferries will significantly reduce Gite visitors, and discussions about the impact of increased choice of flights.

This suggests that many UK Gite owners rely solely on the "little islanders" as a source of guests.

The majority of Gite guests do not use ferries or flights. They drive from their homes in North Europe. Some even drive from their homes in South Europe to avoid the worst of the summer heat.

I think, overall, that UK Gite owners are not good at attracting European guests. This is a pity as they are probably ignoring up to 80% of letting potential.

Try searching google.com (not google.co.uk) for "Location de vacances" "Feiertagmiete" "Gite" "Ferienhäusern" "Gästezimmern" "vakantiehuizen" etc and check the results.

Peter

[Paolo]

Pamela,

If you are starting with a completely blank sheet of paper, here is my best bit of advice: target couples, not families.

Couples will be able to come to you all through the year, they don't have school holidays to worry about, quite the opposite, they look to travel when the crowds are gone.

For this market you need one-bed or two-bed properties. Two-bed is good because many couples travel in pairs, or want their son and daughter-in-law, etc. to join them. Two-bed also allows you to get smaller families. But one-bed is also in demand.

You will need to be somewhere on the main tourist trail though, with good transport links to your target markets. For couples, airports are important. Your online marketing will reach all anglophones, and non-UK people will typically fly into Paris and take a flight/train/car hire from there. You would not want the last leg of the journey (usually car hire) to be more than an hour.

It has to be on the tourist trail if you want year-round rentals because you have to be able to express the benefit in three or four words (as you know), e.g.: 'Romantic Paris loft', 'Wake up to the Mediterranean', ‘Dordogne for two’.

If you go somewhere which is not known because you want to get more for your euros, as Miki said, it doesn't matter how wonderful it is, you will not be able to attract so many people because while you are explaining how charming and quiet it is, they will have moved on to the next site.

Couples, especially North Americans, expect a higher level of amenities and plumbing than family groups, and you won’t want cheap-looking furniture, so there would be a greater up-front investment. However, if you are going to buy something in need of renovation, smaller ‘units’ are quicker and easier to get ready and earning income.

It is also best to be in or very near a village with basic shops like a bakery and a grocery, and at least one restaurant.

With savvy marketing, you can tap in to the year-round wanderings of American, Canadian, Aus and NZ couples, as well as the British.

Paolo

[Blackadder<IMG src="http:forums.livingfrance.comimagesline.gif"><BR>Blackadder<BR>Keighley and Creuse]

My point re the travel side of it...i.e cheap flights and P and O cutting crossing routes was...

don't base your property solely on people being able to get there via for eg Rodez airport, The travle market is a fickle thing and routes could be dropped at the erm drop of a hat so to speak.

If your place is too far to drive in a day but not far enough south for great weather and the local airport stops UK cheap flights, your UK market will dry up somewhat, IMO

The point about marketing for the rest of Europe is an excellent overlooked point of course (and most of Europe put us to shame by speaking better English than we speak their respective language)

[letrangere]

Paolo makes an excellent comment about targeting couples, all year round market and also non-British travellers.  I've mentioned before that I feel there is still a gap in the market for seriously good quality gite accommodation and I don't just mean more beds and a bigger pool.  Why concentrate on the latter when you can only use it for 10/12 weeks max per annum?  Aim at all round quality such as antique furniture, four poster beds and a general standard of fittings and fixtures that will attract people who are prepared to pay serious money all year round, even in what you may regard as low season. 

We've come across a couple of such properties in France (many more in Tuscany) and both are American owned with a predominantly US clientele.  One (south 16) is booked solid for 40+ weeks a year yet it only sleeps six, no ensuites, doesn't have a pool and per week in February is Euros 1,050 + utilities + linen, etc.  Needless to say, it is exquisite.  When we tried to book for late Jan/Feb 04 in Sept 03 we were turned away, they were full.  If they can do it, you can.  I have many American friends and they prefer to visit Europe out of season taking advantage of amazingly cheap fares such as the regular winter BA special of $99 LA/Paris one way.  Offer them accommodation such as this place in the Charente and they won't want to go home.

M

[JP1]

Pamela, I have sent a PM to your inbox.

[XLeblanc]

We have stayed in many Gites during the two years we spent looking for the right property in France. Initially in Brittany and then in Limousin.

I think the basic problem in my view and repeat in my view is that a great number of people starting a Gite business or for that matter running a Gite business in France believe that all they have to do is to convert a small barn and fill it with functional furniture and appliances and then get the advert placed and the bookings will come pouring in.

I would not have rented any of the Gites we rented out of season and paid the prices they were wanting for them during peak summer periods. They were not very clean and very badly equiped to spend a couple of weeks in. We stayed in one the first night and had to go and buy a sheet for the bed the next day as the sheet the owners had fitted had so many bobbles on it you couldn't sleep. I called it an exfoliating bed sheet.

People have standards and if you pitch your gite at your own mediocre standards then it is only going to appeal to people of the same standard as you or that of a lower standard. If you have high standards and provide accomodation to these high standards then you will appeal to that area of the market.

There are obviously more factors involved which include the marketing of your gites and their geographical location. You also need to be a good host and be tolerant of your guests and respect their needs. This is something the people whom we stayed with lacked to a certain degree.

I believe there are a lot of gite owners out there who do not have the attributes and the quality of accomodation necessary to run gites, Their prices are geared more to their financial needs than value for money. Bad gites will not attract repeat business.

Now we are in France we have met a number of people whom the dream has not materialised for. They are  hard working people, people with skills, but the French system and language barrier prevents them from succeeding there. My heart goes out to these peolpe. I hate to see anybody's dream being shattered.

The above is only my opinion on this thread, some may agree others may disagree. Please however do not delude yourselves and get into something that can not work for you in France.

Good luck all.

 

[Coco]

What an extremely interesting thread, and since this new format started, it's the first one that has extended past two pages that I have bothered to read all the way through.

A lot of good advice has been given and (as far as the original article is concerned) a lot of sweeping generalisations!

We don't have a gite, but did used to fall into the category of letting out our second home when we weren't staying in it.  We let at the going rate but it still really only covered the costs of our ferries for the year (although we did come 8 times a year), our taxe d'habitation and fonciere, our gardener and the couple who did our turnround for us.

We now live in the house and do B&B.  I suppose because we don't have kids we did not give them a great deal of thought, and because we only have two rooms, knew that we needed all year round busines and not just June-August bookings.  We had also seen some friends go through lean years when the franc/pound exchange rates were unfavourable, so decided, like Miki, that we needed to promote our property to the European market. 

This has paid dividends, as at least 50% of our very busy September/October customers have been from Belgium, Holland and France.  And last year (our first) probably 70% of our July/August trade was French - Brits weren't coming abroad because of the heatwave, buy boy did Parisians want to get our of the city a the weekends!   The other 50% of this autumn's visitors have been middle-aged Brits, not restricted to school holidays, who have waited for the ferry prices to come down after the ridiculous July/August rates of £500/£600 per car.

One generalisation that I never wholly agree with, is that which says you can't make a living out of less than 3 gites or 5 B&B rooms.  Surely it depends on your level of charges, your competition, your own overheads, your own lifestyle, size of family, and overall your earnings expectations and willingness (or not) to work hard.  We have no mortgage, have never lived an extravagant lifestyle, have no children and have only two letting rooms.  We don't earn quite enough to make a living, but I do think that with one, or preferably two more rooms we would.  We would never get rich and we have to work hard; however, not as hard as we did in the UK and we prefer the work!  I am positive that if we had even one child then 4 rooms would be nowhere near enough.  We haven't even put up any roadside advertising yet, and I'm sure we would get a lot of business from that because a) our guests frequently tell us that they had difficulty finding accommodation in this area and b) our local tourist office are desparate to find more accommodation - although I do have to admit, they emphasise that they are looking for B&B accommodation and NOT gites.

[Wilko]

[quote]What an extremely interesting thread, and since this new format started, it's the first one that has extended past two pages that I have bothered to read all the way through. A lot of good advice has...[/quote]

 We had also seen some friends go through lean years when the franc/pound exchange rates were unfavourable, so decided, like Miki, that we needed to promote our property to the European market. 

This has paid dividends, as at least 50% of our very busy September/October customers have been from Belgium, Holland

I am fascinated to know how this was achieved, that is,"to promote our property to the european market"

Wilko