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Fosse septique inspection


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I am sure that this question will have been asked on here somewhere, so if anyone has a link to a  previous thread, that would be great help.

We have finally, finally recived a realistic offer on our residence secondaire [:D]

The compromis is being drawn up and should be signed by all parties on Wednesday.  The agent has arranged for an inspection of our fosse septique on Tuesday, as this has not been done previously.  It is the original intallation from 30 years ago, so we know that it is non-conforming, as does the agent and the purchaser.

Do we need to arrange access to the chamber for this inspection, or will the inspector just write it up as non-conforming?  We have previously had the tank emptied by a local farmer, so we know that the lid of the chamber is topped by a layer of concrete and buried beneath the lawn to the rear of the property.  So far as we know there is a soakaway in the front garden, although there are no plans of the layout.

Having waited this long for an offer, we don't want to delay things by not being properly prepared.  Being the holiday weekend, the agent has disappeared until Tuesday............

 

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The answer is yes.

In principle an older installation should have complied with the regulations at that earlier point in time. There will therefore be an attempt by the inspection to verify if compliance with modern regs can be achieved by modification rather than a completely new installation.

Earlier regs were often based on the separation of grey and black water; the grey water from sink and bath often being combined with rain water from the roof and allowed to run off to a rather basic soakaway. Modern practice requires a fosse toutes eaux so a modification will result in the installation of a degreasing bac  before the grey water joins the sewage flow to the existing fosse. There may also be additional vent requirements recommended but possibly less strict than for a new installation; depends on which side of the bed the inspector gets out of bed. The filter bed if it presents problems is probably simpler to forget about it and install a new sand filter. A vertical undrained sand filter will have more chance of  inspection survival than vertical drained sand filter.

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Thanks for that...I'll get my shovel out in the morning.......

We are sure that the grey water drains right to left from the mid point of the rear wall, which would be in the opposite direction from where I imagine the soakaway for the fosse should be.  There is a vertical vent on the right hand corner of the house, which I am guessing is "in line" between the fosse and soakaway (left to right from the mid point of the house) , although my logic there may be flawed. 

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[quote user="pachapapa"]

The answer is yes.

In principle an older installation should have complied with the regulations at that earlier point in time. There will therefore be an attempt by the inspection to verify if compliance with modern regs can be achieved by modification rather than a completely new installation.

Earlier regs were often based on the separation of grey and black water; the grey water from sink and bath often being combined with rain water from the roof and allowed to run off to a rather basic soakaway. Modern practice requires a fosse toutes eaux so a modification will result in the installation of a degreasing bac  before the grey water joins the sewage flow to the existing fosse. There may also be additional vent requirements recommended but possibly less strict than for a new installation; depends on which side of the bed the inspector gets out of bed. The filter bed if it presents problems is probably simpler to forget about it and install a new sand filter. A vertical undrained sand filter will have more chance of  inspection survival than vertical drained sand filter.

[/quote]

Pretty much spot, thanks!

The SPANC  inspector has been today.  He was happy with the present arrangement for toilet waste, as the fosse is clearly working.  However, he has suggested the grease trap and also a new (linear?) 60m filter bed, as we don't know where the present soakaway is.  Hopefully, our purchasers will not be put off by this, but I've no idea of cost involved......any thoughts.......anyone???

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Assuming you are talking about a "tranchée de épandage" then a length of 60 linear metres would correspond to a subsoil permeability of 30-50 mm/h, where a length of 50 metres would correspond to a dwelling of 5 principal rooms, in your case you have an extra 10 linear metres for an extra i.e. 6 principal rooms ( presumably 4 bedrooms ).

The installation is for the infiltration of pretreated effluent from the fosse septique it does not constitute a system of purification but a system of even distribution of the effluent into the subsoil where bacteria will naturally effect the purification process.

The trench does not have to be one 60 metre trench and often 3 separate trenches will be installed paralell to each other. The width of the trench is conventionally accepted at 0.5 metres.

If you were doing a new installation the SPANC inspector would require a non drained sand filter bed which would cost less than a drained vertical sand filter bed due to the lower layer of collection pipes and the sealing of the bottom of the filter bed. This is of course is associated with a complete installation including a fosse septique toutes eaux. In Deux Sèvres this would cost  around € 5000-4000. with the sand filter part at around € 3000-2500.

I am a stingy individual and for 3 x 20 metre trenches with associated pipe, gravel,sand and geotextile, I would blanch if I was not negotiating around € 1500.

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[quote user="pachapapa"]

Assuming you are talking about a "tranchée de épandage" then a length of 60 linear metres would correspond to a subsoil permeability of 30-50 mm/h, where a length of 50 metres would correspond to a dwelling of 5 principal rooms, in your case you have an extra 10 linear metres for an extra i.e. 6 principal rooms ( presumably 4 bedrooms ).

The installation is for the infiltration of pretreated effluent from the fosse septique it does not constitute a system of purification but a system of even distribution of the effluent into the subsoil where bacteria will naturally effect the purification process.

The trench does not have to be one 60 metre trench and often 3 separate trenches will be installed paralell to each other. The width of the trench is conventionally accepted at 0.5 metres.

If you were doing a new installation the SPANC inspector would require a non drained sand filter bed which would cost less than a drained vertical sand filter bed due to the lower layer of collection pipes and the sealing of the bottom of the filter bed. This is of course is associated with a complete installation including a fosse septique toutes eaux. In Deux Sèvres this would cost  around € 5000-4000. with the sand filter part at around € 3000-2500.

I am a stingy individual and for 3 x 20 metre trenches with associated pipe, gravel,sand and geotextile, I would blanch if I was not negotiating around € 1500.

[/quote]

Thanks again.  Yes we have four bedrooms.

I asked the inspector about the permitted configurations for the 60m filter and, quite interestingly, he drew out something that resembled a Xmas tree, i.e. a single central trench, with a series of branches running off at 45 - 60°.  Presumably a bit of flexibility allowed to fit everything into the available space and shape..........this can't be France[Www]

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We are in the process of buying a house and have just had the reports from the agent in preparation for signing the compromis.  My head is spinning as even after I've translated the blessed things I can't work out whether what they say is not a problem or something we should worry about.  In particular the SPANC report ticks the middle box and has the warning:  Les drains d'epandage ne sont pas la filiere recommandee par la carte d'aptitude des sols.  Which I take it to mean the effluent distribution system isn't appropriate for the soil type.  But it doesn't say whether needs to be done about this.  Should I worry?

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[quote user="frexpt"]It is the original intallation from 30 years ago, so we know that it is non-conforming,[/quote]Just for the record that is not necessarily a true statement. My property was built in 1976 and has it's original fosse which passed it's inspection last year with neither adverse comment nor any need for remedial work so within reason age, in and of itself, need not be an automatic cause for concern.

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[quote user="AnOther"]

[quote user="frexpt"]It is the original intallation from 30 years ago, so we know that it is non-conforming,[/quote]Just for the record that is not necessarily a true statement. My property was built in 1976 and has it's original fosse which passed it's inspection last year with neither adverse comment nor any need for remedial work so within reason age, in and of itself, need not be an automatic cause for concern.

[/quote]

So far as I understand it, there is no longer a requirement for an existing owner to "update" an installation. That has been tried and failed miserably.  The onus now falls on a purchaser to carry out the recommended works within 12 months of buying.  There is a clause in our compromis referring to the non-conforming nature of the fosse, followed by "L’acquéreur en fera son affaire personnelle."

 

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[quote user="frexpt"]The onus now falls on a purchaser to carry out the recommended works within 12 months of buying.[/quote]Assuming of course that remedial work is required which, as I said, will not be a given based solely on the age of the property in question.

An adverse report clearly opens the door for negotiation between buyer and seller.

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[quote user="AnOther"]

An adverse report clearly opens the door for negotiation between buyer and seller.

[/quote]

Of course it might, but if the non-conforming state is reflected in the "starting" asking price, that should circumvent the arguement somewhat........not always, as we have learned after the better part of 25 viewings over the past 12 months.

However, following our SPANC visit, my understanding that upgrading is mandatory where a property is being sold and there is no fosse toutes-eaux, or no separate "fat trap" or no soakaway / filter arrangements as described by PPP above.  Our report doesn't make any specific recommendations, but I guess the purchaser will get those in due course.

The periodic inspections have to be done anyway and although your fosse is fine for your use, it will almost certainly need to be upgraded should you sell on.

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[quote user="frexpt"][quote user="AnOther"]

An adverse report clearly opens the door for negotiation between buyer and seller.

[/quote]

The periodic inspections have to be done anyway and although your fosse is fine for your use, it will almost certainly need to be upgraded should you sell on.

[/quote]

I don't understand that statement. Your system either passes or fails and you receive a written report. Our fosse was installed in 1972 and passed the inspection.

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There's a difference between inspection report for "bon functionnement" and a "certificate de conformite".

We have both.

Our fosse was installed in 2006 and we got a certificate of conformity for it. We had it emptied in June this year as part of the maintenance service which we subscribe to, and during this process the fosse, filter bed, and ventilation systems were inspected to see that everything was working correctly; proper flow of liquids etc. For this we got an inspection report to show that it had been emptied and that everything was working OK.

For a house sale I would expect to produce the certificate to show that the fosse is up to standard, and the inspection report(s) to show that it still works and has been properly maintained.

A fosse installed in 1972 is unlikely (but maybe just possible, depending on ground conditions?) to meet current requirements for filtration of the liquid outflow, and I guess your inspection report indicates that so far it's working as it was 40 years ago and that the fosse itself hasn't corroded/degraded/cracked (no leakages etc). I would expect that they'll leave you alone until such time as you wish to sell and then it will become an issue between you and the prospective buyer as to who has to update the installation. There must be thousands of similar installations and it'll take years to get round to enforcing changes. An application for a building permit, as in our case, is an ideal way of forcing you into an update.

I've just overseen a sale inspection for some absent neighbours who are selling up and it was a pretty thorough check.

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At a recent council meeting, we were given a list of all the properties in our commune that are not on mains drainage. The list showed the names and addresses of those who had been inspected by SPANC and their fosses conformed to current normes and then there were those whose fosses were inspected but did not conform. These householders have four years from the inspection to rectify the situation and we were told that the list is updated yearly and if after the four years, nothing has been done and the names are still on the list after that inspection re-visit, then they will be fined.
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[quote user="Val_2"]............if after the four years, nothing has been done and the names are still on the list after that inspection re-visit, then they will be fined.[/quote]

Scaremongering, and I very much doubt that would happen.

Sid, I'm not sure I understand your logic. If (and maybe it's a big IF) a 40 year old installation passes inspection with flying colours why would it be an issue when you come to sell your house? We have a "certificate de conformite" for our 40 year old fosse and assuming we carry out any remedial work we have been asked to do (as you say with regards filtration) I cannot see why there should be an issue.

I think the inspection is a bit like an mot. If it complies all well and good, if it doesn't then you have to carry out remedial work. When you come to sell providing you have a current mot there should be no problem. If however the sytem is beyond reasonable repair then you would have to buy a new one.

Assuming you keep your house for another 20 years would you expect to replace the fosse before you sell? What is the cut off date for age of an installation that is working properly? 10 years, 20 years .........?

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Using your MoT analogy; a car with a current MoT complies with the regulations as far as running order, brakes, lights and all the rest of it, is concerned. It doesn't show that the vehicle was constructed to the standards required for the country of use.

The periodic check for "bon functionnement" is similar to the MoT, whilst the CoC shows that it was constructed to the required standards. Our periodic report is simply a carbon copy worksheet dated and signed by the inspector. The certificate however, is a much more official looking document, stamped and signed by the President of the Community of Communes, Coeur de Poitou.

I'd be interested to know what your certificate of conformity shows and when it was issued. Are you really telling me that someone came and issued you with a certificate of conformity recently? Why would they do that? Did they dig up the garden to see how it filters and drains? Flying colours? How exactly is that shown, marks out of 10? You say it's "working properly", but I know that fosses of that vintage didn't have filter beds for one thing, the water just drains away, so it can't be filtering correctly.

Assuming that I live long enough to keep the house for another 20 years (!!) I would expect at some point to have to carry out some further works to keep up to date. The sand filter bed for example may (probably will) need to be renewed, and by the time I come to sell, the standards may have changed again, just as with the electricity. I accept this as a cost of maintenance. I wouldn't want to have an electrical system that was installed 40 years ago, even if it appeared to be "working properly", but in the event of an unforseen issue arising at sale I'd haggle with the buyer about who does the work! 

Our house also had an old fosse, 25 years old according to our neighbour whose cousin had it installed, but when we came to build an extension we had an unannounced visit from SPANC who said that the fosse was not suitable because of a lack of filtration, and we were compelled to install a new one or we wouldn't be allowed to complete the building works. It added 4,500€ to our building bill, although compared to some estimates I've seen on here, it seems a bargain! I've no idea how long they last but if it's 20 years that's only a couple of hundred euros per year; we'd probably pay that if we were on mains drainage anyway.

I don't think it's scaremongering, just being realistic.

My understanding is that France has been forced by the EU to review its environmental standards, especially with regard to sewage disposal. This is why so many villages are having water treatment plants installed and roads dug up etc for new drains. Not all properties will be able to connect to the mains; we can't, although the village had a new mains drainage system installed only a few years ago. We're just too far away and at the wrong level, possibly a zoning issue as described above by another poster. Having gone to the expense of sorting out a main drain for the majority of the village population it seems obvious that the rest will not escape untouched and will have to come into line and modernise at some point. It's just easier to deal with the simple cases first.

It's a convenient time for the authorities though, on the sale of a property, to ensure that another one is "caught".

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"I don't think it's scaremongering, just being realistic." -- My "scaremongering" quote related to Val_2's post about people being fined if they did not carry out remedial work before a second inspection. Nothing to do with your post Sid, sorry if I confused matters there but I did quote Val's post first..

Our "certificate de conformite" was issued when the fosse was installed, just as yours would have been. The certificate was given to us when we purchased the property.

I can see the point you are making and agree when the system breaks down completely then you will need to buy a new one, just as you would a car if it becomes too old/expensive to repair. I also agree that you should expect to do some remedial work in the future to keep it up to standard. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one however as I would expect a system passed by the authorities to conform to the current regulations in every respect and not to have it contested on the sale of the property. It would be interesting to hear from others who may have had an old system passed.

By the way, were you not given the option to install a new filter bed, rather than a full system?

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I've heard the stories about 4 years and fines etc. but don't know how true they are, or how diligently they would be applied, this is France remember. What is certain though  is that there will be a lot of poorer people who will simply be unable to afford a full upgrade to current standards however long they are given so what is the point of fining them - and when would the fines stop !

A better scheme in such cases would be for the commune to carry out the work and take a charge against the property.

Requiring an upgrade within a certain time frame from the point of sale makes perfect sense as a potential purchaser will have to both budget for it and get the work done.

My fosse is quite basic, a rudimentary grease trap (is it really mandatory to have one?), a concrete tank, and a water outlet which goes.........well nobody knows. The ground here is rocky and so porous that even the waste from backwashing the pool, a 40mm hose, is gone without trace within about 1/2m of hitting it. We are also relatively isolated with no water courses or sources anywhere in the vicinity so nothing to pollute.

Can anybody point to the law which requires routine inspections ?

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Just quoting what we had to read in front of us and what the maire read out via the SPANC yearly report. As for fines, well it maybe that some people maybe made an example of, especially the really badly installed/properly working fosses, who knows. But end of the day... all these properties are on the list and will be kept there until deemed proper, we shall soon see when the bureaucrats start to send out paperwork I expect. Also of course, anyone applying for a permis to do works will also be checked out to see if on that list or not. Don't underestimate the french regarding rules and regulations.
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  • 1 month later...
hi

I assume you need to keep rain water out of the fosse all together..

some may (not)be interested, but the UK has new regs as from this year, all

sceptic tanks have to "treat" water before discharge into local ditch. Unable to sell a house unless it confoms.

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[quote user="Bill"]hi I assume you need to keep rain water out of the fosse all together.. some may (not)be interested, but the UK has new regs as from this year, all sceptic tanks have to "treat" water before discharge into local ditch. Unable to sell a house unless it confoms.[/quote]

I am not sure about rain water but the septic tanks are called "fosses toutes eaux" in french which translated into english means all waters septic tank; so that may include water as in rain water.Perhaps one of the forum experts will be able to clarify any dichotomy of interpretation.

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We have a fosse and I know that the rain water does not go in to it. That may not of course be the norm and may be unique to us, the reason being is we have a river running along the side of our property and the rain water pipe goes across the garden to the river.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

We have a fosse and I know that the rain water does not go in to it. That may not of course be the norm and may be unique to us, the reason being is we have a river running along the side of our property and the rain water pipe goes across the garden to the river.

[/quote]

I dont have a fosse as the house is connected to the communal sewer, the effluent is pumped under the river and up to the treatment lagoons. But I do harvest rainwater from the roof into a large plastic container from whence I water the flowers in the garden. You really should not waste all that wholesome rainwater into the river.

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