How many gites to buy?

[Shawny]

We are thinking of buying in Brittany and runniong a couple of 1 bedroom gites to provide some income, ideally we would like around 10-15000 euro per year as the properties would be paid for by sale of UK house.

Our aim would be to buy properties in cash and then use the income from a couple of gites to live off, basing our calculations on a average of 6 months rental at an average of £300 per week for a 1 bedroom / 2 person Gite. We would target the gay community but not exclusively.

Is this a reasonable expectation or would others advise that more gites are required? Also, what would you expect to pay for a gite which only requires internal updating, i.e. new kitchen / bathroom etc?

Any advice is appreciated

 

cheers

Shawn

 

[Babnik]

From what I have read from this forum, 6 months occupancy sounds very optimistic to me. I'd base myself on more like 3 months occupancy especially if you're planning on livving on the proceeds. Anything extra would be nice, but think small to start off with.

[Ianhaycox]

I would agree that 6 months is optimistic. It's more likely that you could get 8-10 weeks high season (£400 ? for 1 bed gite) and maybe 4-6 weeks at £300. Back of envelope calcs shows about £5,000 per gite per year. Targetting a niche market may increase occupancy but don;t count on it. There are lots of empty gites in low season.

Ignoring the capital outlay there are quite a number of expenses that eat very quickly into the income - advertising (£500), insurance, accountancy, heating, electric, linen, wear and tear, ... etc.

I know it sounds very negative, but you do need to go into these things eyes open. I would suggest reading (and searching) this and other forums extensively, searching via Google etc.

I've put together a selection of links as at starting point at http://radio.weblogs.com/0136203/stories/2004/07/11/giteLinks.html which may help.

Good luck.

[Fil]

Hi,

my husband says to say that the bottom has dropped out of this market.

Fil

[Miki]

Hi Fil,

Would you care to ask him to elaborate on that sweeping statement.

Sure there are many more than there were just 3-5 years ago and yes, for many areas the market has got far too saturated but can he offer any proof and facts please, remembering what you said late last August " We are also in our second year and have had a good summer" and has it got anything to do with the problems you had with a few guests last summer ?

I am serious and not having a go at you about this, just really interested how others with gites or B&B's,  are viewing it all.

 

 

[Alexis]

You will have to do a lot of work.  I wouldn't recommend Brittany.  Do you have to live here?  There are loads of gîtes near me and the occupancy rate is dismal.

We have been through this before but we are just stating facts, not voices of doom...

1.  Prices are perhaps 100 times more expensive here than when I bought.  So you pay more to start with.

2.  Lots of the house hunter's who rented gîtes or stopped in b&b have bought property so don't need to rent.

3.  Their family and friends stop with them...don't need accomodation.

4.  They let friends stay for a minimal sum.

5.  By the time you have furnished and equiped the gîte with NOT cheap stuff, you are talking thousands on top of the purchase price.

6.  One Bedroom is a bit titchy.  Are you planning to build or buy small places? 

7.  I wouldn't recommend advertising - all that to pay for too -  just for gay people.  The people here are ..... conservative!!  Fifty years behind the times some of them.

There seem to be other areas were the gîtes flourish but we are a bit over served here.  Morbihan.  Côtes d'Armor.

 

[Val_2]

Shawn. Do a lot of homework before you jump in anywhere. Take a look at the FPN just to see how many properties are up for sale and an awful lot of those are in Brittany compared to two years ago. There is great saturation of gîtes to let and remember its not just the british at it, but the French ,Germans,Dutch and Belgians too so you have a great deal of competition. You can't depend on living wholly off gîte rental if you have no other income or hardly any savings,France is getting too expensive now with everything changing and getting dearer - look at petrol gone up again today,medical insurance,car insurance, you name it. If you look at some of the ads for property for sale where it was rental income, ask yourself why. No one gives up all the hard work they have put into such a project unless it is a no-go or they have a genuine reason such as illness,retirement etc. Property is the highest costwise it has been for over 15 years here in Brittany. We were going over the rentals for last year at the Tourist Office and a lot of owners did not get hardly any business last summer compared to sell out in 2003 and this is a very popular resort.Never take the slightest bit of notice of rubbish TV programmes either, they don't know what they are talking about half the time.

[Russethouse]

Poor Shawn must be very discouraged by now - I do think are going to be offering something a little different so if you are sensible, don't expect too much to start with and are prepared to put in the work you have as good a chance as the next person.(and take due note of the cautionary comments on this site too)

After all the 'pink'pound is very powerful these days and I would think that checking into accomodation can raise eyebrows sometimes for same sex couples.

You may also have to follow your other idea and be registered with agencies as you mention elsewhere, as well at least for a bit, but why not have a look around and see whats about ?

[Paolo]

Hello Shawn,

Let me emphasise that I don't know the Brittany rentals market at first hand. I do hear from British owners that the market is flooded by Brits and other North Europeans. But I don't think that should necessarily put you off your idea, if your idea is good enough.

I have a one-bedroom and a two-bedroom village house in Provence, in a part of the world that is on the tourist trail. I know people all around me who are getting very few bookings, even in summer - one perfectly decent house managed no bookings last year. So the market there can also be said to be flooded.

However, the people who are suffering are the ones with a 3/4-bedroom house with pool. Their season really runs about 12 weeks from June to September, coinciding with school holidays. And the supply exceeds demand. I am assuming that when people say that Brittany is over-supplied with gites, they mean bigger than one-bedroom.

My houses get bookings all year, and if my life depended on it I could probably get 12 months of bookings (which believe me, you don't want). That's because there is a very good market of couples who travel the world outside of school holidays - they want to avoid the crowds and benefit from cheaper prices, and also to experience the 'real' France, Italy, etc. Typically they are reasonably well off, 50s and older, and fairly 'refined'. And also not British - more American, Canadian, Aus/NZ. But in Brittany you could add the British to that list because of its proximity to the UK.

How do you tap into this market of couples spinning around Europe? Three steps:

- It's all about location. Your gite will have to be in a well-known spot, like a picturesque village, and easily accessible from overseas. Villages are much better than rural hideaways because the clientele I am describing want to be able to walk to the shops and restaurants and take part in village life. A fishing village with great restaurants is a year-round attraction, and food is no worse in winter than in summer.

- Get a house with a view. In Brittany, the best thing is a seaview, although this may be beyond your budget. You need to be able to show something in your marketing that will make people think 'Wow!'

- You'll need to invest in making your house beautiful - well decorated and furnished, but also well appointed: walk-in shower, central heating, working fireplace, waste disposal, half-size dishwasher, quality linens and towels, etc. Not like a holiday house, like a real home.

If on the other hand you are thinking of getting a farmhouse out in the countryside with a couple of little outhouses to convert - my opinion isn't worth a hell of a lot in that part of France but I would say 6 months of bookings is optimistic.

I wouldn't bother with agencies, they take too much commission and are probably going to be far less effective than online advertising and your own website.

I also wouldn't focus too much on the pink pound/dollar. To quote Kevin Costner, "If you build it, they will come." About 20% of my renters are gay couples, but I don't target them specifically. We're all the same, we all type the same phrases into Google - "village house in brittany", not "gay village house in brittany"!

All things being equal, what you do with your internet marketing will determine whether you succeed. If you follow the link in my signature it will take you to a free advice resource for rental owners that should give you plenty of ideas.

Bon Courage!

Paolo

[Dave&Olive]

well we have read all the books done the maths saved the money,wifes got a pension not much but.. I can have one in 18 months time a bit of a wedge in the bank, and are using the formula of €100 per person per week for 10 weeks, if we do all what is said above(and sell some of my hand made furniture) we hope we can scrape a living in France.

              So do the maths think yours is a bit out or we are going to be well off.

             must tell the joke about Paddy and Mick in the Klondike gold rush

           Dave, Olives in bed with the 3 cats, alarm clock going to be throw out the window in 5 weeks time,no more 12 hour nights,but going out to work harder but it`s for myself,atittued has won many a war.......if you can spell it

[letrangere]

Paolo's posting is one of the best I've read on this subject for months, and he's so right about tapping that target audience.  We met several people who fit into this category in Tuscany recently who, in some cases, were renting 4+ weeks in December/Jan and did so every winter!  See no reason why you can't do the same with the right property in the right part of France.  I've said before on here that I've felt there was a gap in the French market for smallish, really top quality properties such as Paolo describes.  M

[Alexis]

Val must have been typing away at the same time as me.  Both very similar messages.  We are not trying to stop people coming, we are just telling you what we know about OUR areas.  After all, we both live here and haved lived here for a long time.

People seem to do ok running gîtes but usually in another district.  Quillan and Paolo are a lot further South.  Deby too.

Apart from Miki who is ssoooooooo rich you wouldn't believe it!!!

 

[Fil]

[quote]Hi Fil, Would you care to ask him to elaborate on that sweeping statement. Sure there are many more than there were just 3-5 years ago and yes, for many areas the market has got far too saturated bu...[/quote]

Would you care to ask him to elaborate on that sweeping statement.

Hi Miki,

Yes I would.  It was a joke!!!!!  To do with bottoms!!!!  Get it?

Bookings are going great guns after a slow start felt by all I know, and we are really pleased with last season and how it looks to be going this one!  Bit cold though at the moment and hubby feeling his arthritis a bit.

Hasn't affected his sense of humour though.  What happened to yours?

Fil

[Mikey]

 how many gites.. you would need at least 4 2to3 bed gites or probly 6 1 bed gites to scrape a living.

renting 6 months of the yr, in your dreams.

if you want gites unless you are a cash buyer i doubt you would be able to earn enough to pay a mortage and live.

just have a look at the fpn site and see how many gite complexes are for sale, i just had a quick look and counted 15, and i know some of them have been for sale for ages. why are they selling.

the running costs of gites is more than you would expect, tax d'habitation and foncier on each property.

 

unless you are a competant d.i.y.er it will eat into your profits when things like water heaters go wrong or septic tanks are blocked etc.

brittany is saturated with gites and plus is no longer a cheap holiday destination with the very high ferry prices.

what i think would be a good idea and from seeing in older fpn articles is that house parties seem to go well.

its cheaper to set up a B&B, running costs are lower. cheaper to buy at the outset.

you could even have a little toilet block in the garden for the george michaels.

if you really do want gites i would recommend you get one thats already up a running that way you are open for business straight away.

plus converting barns into gites cost a fortune.

This post has been editied by the moderators. It was not in keeping with the Forums Code of Conduct and whilst the comments may be funny so some they are still none the less offensive.

All posts refering to this matter have either been removed or edited where possible.

Quillan

Moderator

[Miki]

[quote]Val must have been typing away at the same time as me. Both very similar messages. We are not trying to stop people coming, we are just telling you what we know about OUR areas. After all, we both ...[/quote]

I agree with Alexis that we can only talk about our areas as regards saturation etc. The point really is that 90% of the Brits aim specifically at the UK or at least English speaking countries. One reason is because those clients will obviously pay the higher money, that people from other countries will not.

The French for the greater part, will expect a VERY nice place for the kind of money that some Brits charge for and let's not pull any punches here, not for a load of tosh. There will always be need of "economic" places but as the competition grows (and oh boy , how the letting market has grown in recent years!) so people will expect more for less. So, as has been already stated, one will have to ensure their place is in top condition and more or less have everything a home would have. Quality being the name of the game and not a "that will do" attitude.

I take note of what Paolo says and indeed often look at his place and receive updates from him. I tend to agree with nearly all he says, he knows the letting market well but correctly admits to not knowing some areas of France and how that region region works but does still offer very good tips on what one should probably be thinking of doing or where and what to buy.

Alexis, since the satchel broke and went for repair, we have had to take it easy as the temporary replacement is a bit titchy for the job of holding the dosh but when the other one comes back, wooooosh, we will be back among your lot and Tina can have another 25€ and get out and spend,spend, spend 

As for you Fil, come on get a grip. I love a joke and and have great friends where belly laughs are the order of the day from the first pint to the last ! but if someone come up with a joke like that, we would seriously worry about their sense of humour, sorry we like a crack but ...........................

[Shawny]

I stated clearly that we would be buying cash so the mortgage comment is irrelevant.

One other point, where are these gite complexes for sale, I cannot see any search option of the french property news site that you referred to.

For ref the reason why I was looking at 6 months occupancy was that when I have booked a gite for 4 in June this year, a lot of those I looked at were already booked for around 10 months, the one we ended up going for will cost £545 for 1 week in June, although this does have a small pool.

As for DIY skills, I consider them as reasonable, having put 2 kitchens in, toilet, shower, 30m2 decking etc but I would not consider myself a builder so would aim for something that needs internal works only.

cheers

Shawn

 

 

[Mikey]

Thanks for you diy cv, very impressive, i was offering some advice thats all, you imagine you have guests in the middle of august and the water heater packs up, if you can't diy you have a problem cos you won't find a plumber and if you can it will cost your weeks rental to have the heater changed, and if you can't you have unhappy guests.

Go on to the fpn site and search for for properties in brittany and you wil find there are at least 15 properties with gites for sale.

The cash statement may be irrelivent for you but it isn't for others.

[Shawny]

For anyone else who is interested, I did some further research and yes some of the Gites that I didnt look at do indeed have quite a number of weeks free, nowhere near the 10 months occupancy of those that I was looking at and subsequently booked with.

On the same topic, does having a pool make a difference in terms of the rental income or just the rentability, i.e. with pool you get more interest and therefore bookings but is the price per week significantly higher?

Maybe I need to post that as another question!

Following on though from points about the Gite business being very difficult, if anyone is selling a property with 2 gites, in Brittany then please drop me a message with the details. I may not be in a position to buy at the moment but if the right property came up, you never know!

cheers

Shawn

 

 

 

 

 

[Mikey]

dear shawney,

yes having a pool does make a differance. more income and more attractive to clients.

i know a man that selling his house and 3 gites with pool in britany not too far from st malo, we could be neighbours.

if you would like to pm me i will give you his number.

its a beautiful property large main house and 3 gites, ithink one is 1 bed not sure about the others, it was originally converted by one of franky goes to holywood.

 

[Alexis]

The idea of a pool is a good one but it isn't that warm up here, even in Summer.  Anyway, the beach isn't far.....

Try looking at  (here we go again!) www.immonot.com which is the Notaires site so you can see what is on offer. 

I'll tell you now, the coast prices are rocket high.

Did I tell you we were selling our houses .... no, no, we live in the middle of a mud slick with escaping heifers this morning which didn't improve the situation.

[Patmobile]

Hi Shawny

In the areas (62 & 80) where we have our holiday properties I spoke to the local chief of Gite de France about average occupancy.

Their advice has been confirmed by our experience. Here its around 24-28 weeks per year for a country gite, 30+ weeks per year for one near the sea.

The larger gites seem to let earlier, but we are about to open a new studio/loft style gite that we want to market to couples - not necessarily gay couples, but it is called "Studio Rose" and the exterior is painted pink.

I couldn't say how many you'll need. Obviously small ones fetch less weekly revenue than larger ones.

Best of luck and hope you do well - but not too close to us!

Patrick

[letrangere]

We have several friends with very nice houses who let their places in 24/46/81 yet rarely manage more than 18, 20 at a pinch, weeks a year.  Yet we stayed at a GdF in 33 last year where the French owner said she was full practically year round apart from a slow period between mid-Jan to Easter.  Could it be the GdF touch?  M

[Miki]

Margaret,

A few things really.

The price of gites within the Gites de France guide book show a distinctly lower price than the large percentage of British run gites. Thus, with the prices at an affordable (for them) cost, the French take full advantage of getting away whenever they can. This is not all the French of course but, there are a significant number that love to take a vacation whenever they can.

This chap is probably in an area of some demand (Bordeaux region ?) and so gets very good bookings.

Don't forget, the French do not have the expense of Ferries etc.

G de F are huge, as you know and the French talk of them like it is the Bible of gîte holidaying in France. Although there is competition, it is not very strong, so G de Fr are THE organisation that the French not only join in serious numbers but for many of their prospective clients, it is only their guide that they use to seek a place.

They literally are nationwide. One can almost guarantee that most, if not all areas of France, are covered by them, as far as Chambres and Gîtes are concerned.

50 years old this year and they would like us to show the new logo showing this fact ! You are expected to buy it as well. No it's not free, nor is being a member, far from it but, it works.

 

[Mikey]

Miki is absolutly right about GdF. there are gites in the same village as us that are GdF and they have a 100% occupancy all yr, in season French tourists out of season French re-locating or seasonal workers.

But lets face who wants people all year, i'm happy with filling ours during the summer and  the odd few here and there the rest of the yr, any more than that would drive me mad.

shawny me old mate, you still hav'nt pm'd me about the property i mentioned in an earlier post.

I would give the guys number so you would save a fortune on agents fee's, and i wasn't winding you up when i said it was orignally converted by one of franky goes to hollywood, it honestly was.

 

mike

[Karen24]

I cannot resist recounting what happened when we had the first gay couple stay in our gite. My first faux pas was when the two guys arrived I was tired, (why do changeovers never get easier?) so not really paying attention. They could see that I was looking for the women and must have thought that I was shocked. Of course I wasn't, it was just a standard reaction. I showed them the living room then walked into the kitchen to check something when I turned round I saw that the throw covers that I was sure that I put on the sofas were not there. Stll very tired I was obviously perplexed. Did I? Didn't I? One of the guys finally interpreted my confusion and said, " I hate throws, wont put up with them. "

I put throws on to protect the upholstery from the chlorine from damp smimming costumes. It really can shread fabric and after quite a few years in the game I have learnt the hard way. Well I bit my tongue and didn't protest but I was not a happy bunny, and of course this had nothing to do with whether they were gay or not.

On the few occasions that I saw them during the two weeks I could detect a coldness and was concerned, call me old fashioned but I like my guests to be happy. About two days before they left they confronted my husband who had, by chance, often cleaned the pool during their stay. Usually it is me who looks after the garden and pool. By the way my husband is not in the least homophobic. They asked him directly if he had a problem with gay couples. John looked at them completely puzzled and said without thinking, "Good God no, I am just usually a miserable old *******. That is why my wife normally keeps me away from the guests."

Oh so many stories to tell!!

Karen24