My guests have guests

[Viv]

Sorry Clair, I forgot that you mentioned that all persons muct be named on the booking form, I must have been lucky in that I've never had to do that.

Surely then if  you think something is important enough to merit forming part of a contract, then you just need to stipulate what action eg a fine, will be taken if the contract is broken otherwise what use is a contract? But if you had a really stroppy so and so could it not to legal action? hmm tricky

 

[GRT17]

As far as I can see the problem is that extra guests have been accommodated without informing the owners and had the owners been asked beforehand I am sure they would have agreed to the gite being let for the max. number i.e. 6 people. Also the owners would have then supplied the necessary bedding etc. I would not be happy about "unplanned" visitors sleeping directly on my mattresses or sofas with no sheets to protect bedding.

When we let our house we always ask for the names of the other members of the party and I think this is quite usual. We too have had enquiries from groups of 6 or 8 when the property is clearly advertised as sleeping 4.

Clair, better luck with the next lot.

Gill

[Owens88]

The misuse of the beds (i.e. without bedding) could give rise to an extra cleaning charge (to be taken out of the damage deposit ) ?

John

 

[Teamedup]

I have never yet been to a gite where the sheets were automatically provided. The thing for us is that friends holidaying in France will call in and see us and stay the night and go back to their own holidays. We always sort our own bedding out. We always take a place that is too big for us too. 

 

One thing it has taught me, I will be making sure that I am not staying at any stalag gite in the future, where there are many rules all of which must be obeyed. So  I will be asking  every last question now and my custom will go to those with some flexibility.  Especially as we are not noisy, never overcrowd and always leave the places immpecably clean.

 

When I go on my holidays, I like to be able to do as I please more or less. And before anyone tells me that their guests are always enchanted with the system they have, well it would not suit me one little bit.

[Owens88]

Teamedup I sympathise. Funnily enough I thought the 'long list of rules' thing was in the B&B thread not the Gites.

As for bedding. Yes there is generally a per person charge in France  (as opposed to say Portugal, but perhaps nobody drives to Portugal ?). If you are bringing your own bedding and you have brought excess for the visitors then there shouldn't be a problem if the capacity limits are not exceeded.

However a polite note in advance wouldn't hurt either. Respect and politeness work both ways.

As it happens we promote our place as being good for families and also that it has ample living/dining space for having friends for meals etc. I agree that a gite is about providing a temporary home away from home (not merely beds for the night).

However I now start to wonder if different sensitivities apply if the owners are also staying in the same grounds? How does an owner bite their lip when infringements are minor, or merely differences in ways of living  ?

John

[Clair]

[quote]Teamedup I sympathise. Funnily enough I thought the 'long list of rules' thing was in the B&B thread not the Gites. As for bedding. Yes there is generally a per person charge in France (as oppo...[/quote]

"I agree that a gite is about providing a temporary home away from home (not merely beds for the night)."

I could not agree more.

A visitor last summer was a keen moth collector and used to leave all the outside lights on, all night, every night, in order to increase his catch... I quietly reassured myself that all the bulbs were low energy.

He also asked if he could set up a special white light in the garden to attract even more bugs, I simply asked if he needed an extension lead and to make sure the light would not inconvenience our neighbours (farmers who go to bed around 9pm). His set-up was as bright as a laser shining up in the sky and all the neighbours were visibly intrigued as I explained his hobby to them. Then the gendarmes turned up, wanting to know more about the laser light show they had heard about... More explanation...

He said we had been very accommodating and invited us to have diner with his family before he left and we had a great evening with the whole family.

Another family had friends staying in another gîte a few km away, They asked if their friends could visit, spend the occasional day and use the pool. Of course, I said it was absolutely fine.

I could not care how many people there are staying here as long as they are not more than 6. If I expect 4 and 2 more turn up, I'll offer more bedding & towels (as had happened before). It's the sneaking in and out and the lack of courtesy which concern me. If they can be that discourteous to my face, what else are they capable of?

When living in the UK, I hated the idea of having to bring sheets and towels in my luggage/car, so I thought I would do this place "all inclusive": towels, bedding and electricity.

I make the beds before they arrive, so I need to know how many and who's who (double or twins?) because I think that if you've been on the road all day, you really don't want to have to make the beds on arriving. I always ensure the fridge is cold and the ice cubes are ready to drop in the glass

"I now start to wonder if different sensitivities apply if the owners are also staying in the same grounds? How does an owner bite their lip when infringements are minor, or merely differences in ways of living ?"

Once they're in and they know where the essentials are, that's it. I don't interfere, knock on the door or make myself obvious to them in any way. In fact, I try to stay out of their way as much as possible and limit myself to a wave and a cheery "bonjour!" when seeing them, unless they want to talk, which most of them do after a couple of days anyway...

"I will be making sure that I am not staying at any stalag gite in the future, where there are many rules all of which must be obeyed."

Are you telling me that the places you've stayed at have NEVER had any T&C???

"my custom will go to those with some flexibility"

I believe mine has been amply demonstrated in this thread and others

(http://forums.livingfrance.com/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=283&MessageID=213039&TopicPage=2)

It seems to me you want it all your way, because you've paid...

It still boils down to this: if you book, you agree to the T&C, whatever they specify. If you don't like the sound of them, just don't book.

Clair

[Owens88]

Hi Clair

Just to make things clear. Twas not I who referred to 'stalag gite' or not wanting to stay somewhere with rules.

On balance I think what I said and what you have said you do were consistent with each other. We'll be accomodating but a bit of politeness helps.

And good luck, I trust there wasn't any damage that the deposit couldn't cover.

John

 

[chateaud<P>chateaud<P><P> <P>]

I can't see what the problem is either, when we rent a 5 bedroom place in the south, we never say who else is coming and we have lots of friends coming and going over the course.  Doesnt bother the owners either.

[Clair]

[quote]Hi Clair Just to make things clear. Twas not I who referred to 'stalag gite' or not wanting to stay somewhere with rules. On balance I think what I said and what you have said you do were consistent...[/quote]

Owens88: Apologies for the lack of clarity in my previous reply. I am aware the quotes were lifted from several postings, but this website is not designed to work with my browser and does not give my any control panel to highlight the quotes (I use Mozilla, not IE)

I think we are of the same mind about this and I do not believe it is unreasonable to want to know who is wandering about your property... Thank you for your comments.

Clair

[Eslier]

Our largest gite sleeps 14 but we often find that we let it to smaller groups of, say, 8 people. We provide bed linen and always make the beds up - ALL the beds regardless of how many people are staying. If our guests want to sleep in every bed then that's up to them, they've paid the full amount which would be the same if there were 14 of them. If they have some friends turn up and want to stay the night, why shouldn't they ? They've paid for the use of 14 beds !

All I care about is that we have a contract with one person. I really am not interested in the names of anyone else - why should I be ? We have one all inclusive price for rental and its up to me to get my pricng right so that I don't have to worry how many sets of bed linen need laundering or how many people are taking showers. That's my problem, and the last thing that should be the worry of our guests when they are on holiday.

There are some rules etc. that it is necessary to have but surely it's best to keep them to an absolute minimum. I really can't see the benefit in lots of unnecessary rules just for the sake of it. However, to all those of you that like your rules, please keep it up because we've had a lot of laughs when we hear reports from our guests about some of the other places they've stayed !

[Clair]

[quote]Our largest gite sleeps 14 but we often find that we let it to smaller groups of, say, 8 people. We provide bed linen and always make the beds up - ALL the beds regardless of how many people are stayi...[/quote]

My one and only gîte is next door.

I like to know who's in it.

I don't believe that's unreasonable or unusual.

My visitors also regale me with tales of other places and I too take mental notes about what to do or what to avoid.

From the replies here, I like to think there's room for both approaches.

Clair

[Miki]

I am with Clair on this.

We only have one gite now but we had 4 before, along with other holiday accommodation and we needed to know exactly who was in our places. Slightly different circumstances perhaps, as we needed to keep a "controle" book with all the names of all guests "on site" just in case of a passing police inspection.

One really has to know who is in ones gite(s), it is simply good manners as far as I am concerned, other renters may see it completely different to who is right or wrong. Well as ever, it is simply down to the owner to choose what the rules are and the renter to decide whether they like those rules or not and of course to hire or not, their perogative as much as it is the owners perogative to lay down their rules.

It may well be a different ball game if the gite is owned by Brits with maison secondaires, who, to be quite honest I don't care what happens with them, as far as I am concerned, they have to take their chances and hope that the caretakers are on the ball, where renters just have to also hope that all will be properly cleaned, aired, everything in order and spotlessly clean and everything working OK.

It might even be different if the cottage is away from the owners own property, out of sight, out of mind etc but should owners be happy if the client has signed the forms in which they are asked to sign to say they have read the rules and regs and which may well state that only those named on the forms can be allowed to STAY in the gite (ours certainly do but we have just a 2 bedroomed place and both with shower rooms ensuite) with no other beds or places for people sleep on etc. If we have two people staying, they sign, still knowing the rules, no we don't lower the price, the clients know the price before they hire (we can't possibly be fairer than that surely !!) but should they ask for friends etc to stay, no doubt we would offer no objections if they wanted to use the other room, just as long we are informed first.

Those again are the rules, take them or leave them and we have only on the rare occasion had liberty takers who feel the rules were only for others but to be honest, they are rare as I say and so often you grin and bear but what we won't have is people leaving our place dirty, again on the regs and no excuse to think that cleaning is not their problem (yes it is, it is clearly stated so as well !!) If others don't have rules, that's OK with me, their peoperty they can do what they want. We have rules which we believe are to the benefit of them and us, the place never ever gets overloaded (put u up sofas, lit pliantes etc yuk......but if others do, I don't care, we don't, that's all!)we try hard to keep everything spic and span and we think our rules help us to do so.

No need for anyone to get snotty, if the rules are in place at one place and the renter doesn't like them, simple, walk on look elsewhere, no need to tell people what they want and MUST have, that owner is not interested, if they have rules, those are what they go by. If they miss possible bookings then so be it but that would be pretty rare, as most people hire for them and their own requirements and inviting people over is not so common. We had no problems with people visiting, didn't like people coming in for a swim though, as insurance cover could be tricky, if the policy never covered all eventualities for instance.

Bottom line, don't stop where you don't like the rules but believe me, many people have no plans to do any more than holiday in the place they have hired and like the look of and under the regs they have read. Once again, it really is the choice of the renter to say yeh or ney to those regs, they have the cash and can spend it on whatever cottage they want

.

We are not ogres, we are just experienced hirers who reckon that one really has to have rules and you can adhere to them or simply look elsewhere for one without any restrictions and good luck to you all. We hope everyone finds somewhere suitable and again I say, no need to be snotty lots of places and choices for all these days !

[Russethouse]

So just what are the rules about knowing who is in your property, be it B & B, Gite or hotel ?

Are there 'tourism taxes' calculated per night or even per person per night and are they national, regional or local ?

If you were letting a gite and did not know who was in your property what would the insurance implications be should there be a fire or accident ? Indeed, would there be any ?

Frankly I have too much of a suspicious mind to let my property to an unspecified group of people, and if I lived on site, perhaps with young children I would definitely want to know who to expect......but then I'm paranoid !

[Eslier]

There are no laws (as far as I am aware but someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that stipulate you need to know the names of your contractual renter's party for gites. Clearly you need to know the personal details of the person you have entered into a contract with but beyond that one person there is usually no further need to know more.

Tax de Séjour (tourist tax) does exist in some areas but in general most areas where gites are located will not be affected by it. Tax de Séjour, where applicable, is a local tax administered by the commune.

My view is that being on site I'll get to meet everyone anyway and will usually be introduced so they'll tell me their names anyway. If I made them fill in all the names on the booking form there's no way I would know that they haven't just made up the names anyway.

The point you make about children is a very good one. If one thinks too hard about that then you would never let properties on the site where you live anyway. You can hardly insist on a CRB check for every guest ! It is a concern however, especially when you have lots of young children in a shared pool. I suppose we all just hope that the worst never happens in our back yard. I have been aquainted with people, in the past, whom it has later transpired have molested children and believe me you would never have expected these particular individuals of any such behaviour. One (a headmaster of a Cathedral School) had a lovely family with two young kids of his own. Once caught however he found himself spending his holdays at Her Majesty's pleasure. Scary !!!!!

[Jhc]

I liked Miki's reply above  - to me it was suggestive of someone with lots of experience!  We have had our 3 gites for 7 seasons and have learned more each year about how we like to run them and how to lay a few necessary ground rules. Yes there are 'rules' although we don't title them on a sheet as such, they come under the title of "Information Sheets".  Anyone who does not have basic 'rules' about what not to put down the toilet and plumbing system into the septic tank, and about not having glasses and bottles in the area immediately around the pool, is mad!  Sadly some (a very few) customers seem to loose common sense when they go on holiday - so some things need writing down.  In general we have absolutely wonderful customers..........but each year there seems to be one odd / foolhardy / irresponsible group.

There may or may not be a legal requirement to have the names of all the people staying in your gite.  However, if there is a fire and the fire brigade arrives to a v serious situation and you are on hand to greet them, I think you will really regret not being able to tell them whether to look for,say, 4 or 6 people in the burning building. I shall certainly carry on insisting on having names of everyone staying in our cottages.  In fact in our first year when we took over bookings from previous owner we only had the name of the party leader.  From year 2, when we asked for everyone's name, and the age of the children, it was much better as we could always look their name up while they were staying here - nothing worse than forgetting people's names as it looks so rude..........and I can't be the only mid 50's person who suffers from memory loss on names after a busy Saturday.

Anyway - to me the true test of whether you are running your place well is whether people come back year after year.  Our return bookings are very important to us and must indicate that a high proportion of customers like the way we run things and appreciate a few 'rules'.

 

[GRT17]

Anyway - to me the true test of whether you are running your place well is whether people come back year after year.  Our return bookings are very important to us and must indicate that a high proportion of customers like the way we run things and appreciate a few 'rules'

Exactly

Gill

[Miki]

".....I liked Miki's reply above - to me it was suggestive of someone with lots of experience!"

Perhaps too long Jhc!!

Yes, an information pack is always great to put in your place(s), you can welcome your guests and tell them where the bins are, tell them where the recycling bins are for their wine and beer bottles etc(yes we kindly ask guests to take their glass stuff to one of 3 local places where the bins are situated and supply a large plastic box for them to put them in to enable them to take them easily with them on their next journey out from the gite)all the usual info and tell them anything else buit sometimes it is enough to tell them to look through the info book or just to come and ask us whenever they like for any info at all.

".....Sadly some (a very few) customers seem to loose common sense when they go on holiday - so some things need writing down. In general we have absolutely wonderful customers..........but each year there seems to be one odd / foolhardy / irresponsible group"

Yes, we and others (and no doubt you as well !!) have come to call this phenomenon "The family from hell and equipped with their holiday heads on. Rare but you just know that at sometime every season, one family will appear to match or excede that title !!

".....Anyway - to me the true test of whether you are running your place well is whether people come back year after year. Our return bookings are very important to us and must indicate that a high proportion of customers like the way we run things and appreciate a few 'rules'"

That's about the top and bottom of it all I think, bookings can mean either, good advertising or perhaps word of mouth from previous clients or...perhaps the best of all, guests themselves returning to stay with you again. Having rules are not as bad as it sounds, they are really sensible points that one offers guests and for the most part, the guests would have gone by those rules themselves anyway without being told about them. I suppose they are mainly just to let those without thought to know there are rules and please abide by them or do not reserve with us.

You make some good points with fires and indeed knowing your guests by their names can put it on a comfortable personal level, that we find, guests generally like very much.

[Russethouse]

>>Tax de Séjour (tourist tax) does exist in some areas but in general most areas where gites are located will not be affected by it<<<

The reason I asked this is that I know my friend has to collect such a tax - her gite is in Finisterre although I believe the money goes to the local tourist office who do a very good job promoting the commune. She has to fill in a form and I know it goes on number of nights she has people staying but not if its total let nights ie family of four for 7 nights = 28.

I hate to say this but I think its quite irresponsible not to insist on knowing at least the number of people in the gite - in the event of a fire it could cost a life. (Sorry to keep harping on about the worse case scenario )

[Judyc]

I think you have hit the nail on the head, Gay, and the safety angle would be exactly the tack I would use. 

There is no point stressing because there are six people in the gite, when it is advertised for six.  It was just bad manners on the part of those who rented for not informing the owners that that would be the case. 

However, it does not hurt to point out to the renters in as polite a way as possible that you do need to know the names of those residing for the safety aspect.  In their eyes they have not done anything 'wrong' as such by filling the gite to its correct capacity (an infringement of T&C, but probably they didn't read closely enough!), but your 'reminder' may serve to remind them that they should have informed you and perhaps they will do so in future for any other gite they book.  Diplomatic handling of the problem could always result in another booking or a referral as you are not seen as 'Camp Kommandant' but rather as a concerned owner.

As an aside, we had a family of five last year who booked a gite for six.  On arrival they informed us (not asked, informed) that four of their friends would be joining them for a week.  I spent ten minutes telling them all the reasons why this was not possible (gite not equipped, fosse septique too small, not fair on other guests who expected only a certain number to use pool etc etc) but my husband went all soft and said as we were underoccupied in the other two gites, they could come!  I seethed for the entire week, offered no bed linen or extra crockery or even beds come to that.  I have no idea how sleeping arrangements were made.  I can be very petty!

They were the only family who ignored the 'leave by 10am rule' despite us having reminded them the night before.  I finally almost threw them out at 11.30.  On arrival, they had flown in with three large suitacases and hired a car.  On departure they managed to leave with our peg basket, a towel and a Fisher Price Garage!  Thankfully they are now in Australia and we are in no danger of receiving a repeat booking!

[JohnM]

The only people that go to my house with out me are my friends or are with my fiends, but even so I have some rules, the most important being:-

Please do not treat the house as if it was yours, I do not want anyone to think they are allowed to sell it!

 

Please do leave the house clean neat & tidy so that the next visitors walk through the door and say “Oh, now this is nice” and NOT “Good grief, the last lot lived like pigs”.

 

Remember the neighbours, you may only let your hair down for one week a year, but if they live next door to everybody’s “one week a year” they will soon get fed up.

 

No body has objected and no body has caused any problems... but yes, they are friends (or friends of friends).

 

 

[Dick Smith]

John wrote: "The only people that go to my house with out me are my friends or are with my fiends"

Ah, it's such a fine line, isn't it?

[Clair]

My final words on this subject:

My Belgian guests left this morning.

Having taken heed of the (mainly) sound advice and with the objectivity brought by a few days of thinking about it, I opted to bring up the safety aspect of not knowing how many people were staying overnight.

The guests agreed it had not crossed their mind and we left it at that.

Some of the comments made here were quite scornful. It's one thing having an opinion, but quite another to dismiss everybody else's as stupid or irrelevant just because you disagree with it.

But my thanks for the more enlightened views and particularly to Jhc for showing me the way to bring up the subject with my guests in a way that did not cause them to object.

Clair

[Liz]

A friend of mine is with Gites de France and in the Brittany Ferries Brochure so they take the bookings.  She was telling me last night that 8 people had turned up instead of the max 6 stated in the brochures.  She phoned the GdeF regional office for advice and they told her to take extra money for the 2 additional people from the deposit.

Liz (29)