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Major dispute with our guests.


Grays
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I posted earlier in June about our American guests who are staying for 4 months ( 1st June to 30th Sept) on a long term let. For which i issued a "contrat de location meublee" (location saisonniere) for the period. They paid all four months in advance plus a breakage deposit.

They came over lock stock and barrel intending to find a permenant home in France, and within a week decided they didn't like France (or Europe). That aside we have had a good relationship with them, even though they have been quite demanding and treat our private quarters like a reception desk at a hotel.

Back in June they informed us (as stated after just 10 days in France)they would leave at the end of July, just two months into their 4 month rental. I told them I may be able to refund some money "IF" i could re-let the apartment and so re-advertised the time with our websites etc.

two weeks after that they informed me that they would now stay till around the 27th August. Not too much hassle as I hadn't had any new bookings confirmed for the apartment by then.

Last week I had an initial enquiry for two weeks in September and mentioned this to our guests, saying if it was confirmed then I would almost certainly be able to give them some money back on top of their breakage deposit.

Yesterday the father and son came down demanding to talk to me and carrying a copy of the contract.

When I called to my partner Sarah they stated it didn't concern her as her name was not on the contract and she wasn't even my legal wife. Obviously tempers started to flare before they had even stated their problem....Sarah and the son (who is 32 and not small) had a slanging match where he called us typical greedy Europeans and penny pinching fools.

Meanwhile I managed to get the father to explain that their problem was, they expected to get a full refund for September...as they wouldn't be staying,

and they were incensed that I had said a couple of days earlier that i may possibly be able to refund but only on obtaining a re-let of the gite. They told me that as they understood the contract to be a minimum 3 month let contract, and that provided 60 days notice was given they would be entitled to a refund of all monies paid for the fourth month.

Which of course explains why they had decided to stay to the end of August.

I have informed them that they will not get any money unless i can re-let, and even then it will only be a proportion.

My understanding is that they have booked 4 months as the contract states, and regardless of the contract being called a 3 month minimum letting contract they are liable for their own losses and not me. I do not see that i have mislead them or that I have gone beyond my rights by refusing to refund what our contract states is rent for a 4 month period....far from it we have been friendly, helpful and certainly not greedy as landlords.

Anyone got any advice, opinions or similar experiences.

I would be happy to hear from you as I have two more weeks with these guests and having seen a nasty side to them I would really like to know that I am in the right before I attempt to talk to them any more about this issue.
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Have they put their intention to vacate in writing to you or has it all been verbal on both sides? I'm thinking here in terms of how France operates on the "everything in writing" principle. I certainly think you're in an uncomfortable situation - from what probably appeared to be a lovely long let, so good luck and I hope you get lots of good advice. The married / not married thing is a red herring - if possible, ignore it and don't let it get to you. That's a personal attack and not relevant to how the two of you are running a business.

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don't take offence, but i assume the last reply was not from someone trying to earn a living from holiday rentals.

This booking was confirmed back in April,

we take 90% of our summer (June to Sept) bookings by the end of May.

generally we would not take a long let in summer as we make our core money from the weekly lets in July & Aug.

the four month rate charged took into account the fact we were sacrificing those higher rates for the drop in work load, and the monthly rate would not have been offered without September being part of the deal.

I have been very calm with our guests so far, but am actually quite angry with the idea that we would be expected to give up a large part of our summer income because they have decided they don't like France.

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As somone not in your line of business, I'm trying to be as objective as possible, so pls don't be offended.

Unless there's something you haven't mentioned, then it sounds to me that both parties are equally at fault, i.e. nothing in writing as the the other post said.  They thought that they were giving notice (but it was verbal) shortly after the start of the let, you saw their subsequent (2 wks later) retraction (again verbal) as a continuation. There was no meeting of minds on the whole thing and most importantly, no written understanding.

A very unfortunate situation.  I suspect that if you refuse to refund, their options on pursuing you would be limited and costly / not worth their while.  Thus if you want to play 'hard ball', then tell them to sue if they want.

If it was me, I'd refund proportionately if I got a re-let, and if not, make a token gesture of a week's worth (depending on how I felt that day).  Best though to run this one down to ground quickly and reach some sort of written agreement before they leave - and make sure that everything in your place is nailed down before they go.

Getting away from the objective / rational side of things, they sound like absolute ***holes and untypical of their countrymen.  Best rid.  Best of luck - would be interested to hear the outcome.

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Grays if I was in your position I would be livid. Not only because of the lease agreement but because of the personal attack. Sounds to me like they were trying to intimidate you. Why else would he have his son with him. If the father signed the lease then he is solely responsible surely. Having said that anger won't solve anything in this situation.

As you have stated you have given them the best part of the letting season. Maybe the best way forward is to ask the father for a coffee on his own (and you without your partner) and explain the problem to him, show him how much you would have charged weekly on a summer let and explain that is why September is chargeable. At least you will have done all you can. People are far easier to handle if they do not feel outnumbered. Maybe you can reach some common ground.

Only you know how you feel on this score.

 

Keep us informed as this is an interesting problem.

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Having read your original post some weeks ago, I don't know where this supposed confusion has come from.

They booked , paid and agreed to rent for a certain period. They changed their minds, that is their perogative but you are running a business not a charity.

I think you were more than reasonable in stating that you would give them a partial refund IF and ONLY IF you could re let. Bearing in mind all the running around that you did when they first arrived, this to me, seems more than reasonable.

The attack on your partner is outrageously rude and unacceptable in the 21st century even for conservative Americans. Quite frankly, I would not be making any more concessions to them . 

By the way, will they be expecting you to run them back to the airport when they take their hire care back? 

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Surely, the important thing here is the contract.  You state, you have issued a "standard" contract that simply states the rental is for a minimum period of three months and that 60 days notice must be given to terminate the contract. Surely then, if your tenants gave notice at the end of June, then they have complied with the contract and are entitled not to have to pay for September. It sounds as though you have used a standard long term letting contract rather than a holiday let contract which is, I guess, where the confusion lies.

Did your tenant(s) provide you with written notice at the end of June or did you, at any time give them confirmation in writing that you had accepted their notice ?   If this is the case then you probably just have to write it off and forget about any rent for September. If nothing of this sort has been exchanged in writing then it would be difficult for your tenants to prove that 60 days notice has been given.

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The Guests gave notice in June to leave in July but then changed their minds ( wouldn't this nullify the 'notice' ? ) and then decided to stay until August.

I agree that if you have had nothing in writing from them, it would be difficult for them to prove that any notice has been given.

 

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[quote user="Eslier"]Surely, the important thing here is the contract.  You state, you have issued a "standard" contract that simply states the rental is for a minimum period of three months and that 60 days notice must be given to terminate the contract. Surely then, if your tenants gave notice at the end of June, then they have complied with the contract and are entitled not to have to pay for September. It sounds as though you have used a standard long term letting contract rather than a holiday let contract which is, I guess, where the confusion lies.

Did your tenant(s) provide you with written notice at the end of June or did you, at any time give them confirmation in writing that you had accepted their notice ?   If this is the case then you probably just have to write it off and forget about any rent for September. If nothing of this sort has been exchanged in writing then it would be difficult for your tenants to prove that 60 days notice has been given.

[/quote]

The contract is for a short term 3 months to 5 month 30 day let, furnished, seasonal let, not a standard long term contract as us Brits may know them. though it is a standard issue in these situations with a holiday property.

The 60 day notice applies to cancellation before occupation, with a sliding scale for amount of notice given,

ie 90 days gets 100% refund

60 days 50 %

etc.

The next clause covers our situation and states that in the case of early vacation of the property there shall be no refund owed on the balance of the lease.

So as you see I think we are covered by our contract, the problem for our guests is that as the contract was in French i think they mis translated the two above paragraphs and thought 60 days notice could be given after they had moved in.

And if your French is not good, the second clause could be wrongly interpreted in the positive, ie that a refund would be owed.

Anyway, as the Father was waving the contract about, I pointed out their error in the first part, but have yet to get the chance to refer them to the no refund clause. The son seems to regard the contract as the tool of a greedy landlord anyway so apart from (we think) having the law on our side, the main issue now seems to be that we should refund to show we are not greedy capitalists. This family are very big on conspiracy theories, having lent me a book by David Icke that takes the view that the CIA was responsible for the 9/11 Trade centre bombings and Bush and Blair are puppets of the Illuminati.... http://www.completefrance.com/cs/images/emotions/whistling.gif

I'm all for keeping an open mind on these things, but our Americans are positively full of anti-government rhetoric, which seems to be the reason why they left the States for Europe.

ANyway back to subject, No we had no written notice, and when they changed their minds the second time I only heard about it when my other half mentioned it a few days later. her absent mindedness as much as their seeming belief that it wasn't that important a subject to tell me about.....I do all the advertising and booking stuff you see. So apart from having to "again" change the availabilty calenders on our advertising, I have had almost daily requests for intenet access and telephone use to allow them to alter travel arrangements, sort out car hire issues and even been asked to speak to someone at UPS France who as our guests put it..."doesn't seem to speak English...how come when they work for an international company ??"

Anyway.....its 24 hours since our confrontation and subsequent row, and they have not stepped out of the apartment since. So I have not even had the chance to speak to the father again...let alone assess the mood in our guests camp.

Gram

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The crucial point here seems to be that you already have their money so the ball is very much in your court. They have the option of taking some legal action if they wish but from what you say they haven't a leg to stand on. (Sorry for all the cliches) Why do you feel the need to prove that you're not greedy capitalists? Most Americans worship greedy capitalists! Perhaps it's a very British trait to worry about what others think of you; your Americans obviously don't give a toss what you think of them. The fact that you have been so very helpful to them over transport, communications etc. has led them to feel that they can ride roughshod over you and your family. I would stand my ground and make sure you didn't refund them any rent unless you had definitely received it from another tenant and I wouldn't give them any deposit back until you'd had a very good inspection for any damage or losses.

No more Mr Nice Guy!

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I think the problem that Grays is suffering with here is that very British trait, fast disappearing, of doing the right thing and being seen to be as fair as possible.

Of course, from the facts given, the Americans don't have a leg to stand on but from the propensity of their cousins to go to law at the drop of a hat ( quote Dan Quayle American Vice President  " Let's ask ourselves, does America really need seventy percent of the world's lawyers?") it may be better to come to some arrangement.

This way the Americans wont be happy but at least it may stop them causing further trouble and Grays' conscience may feel a little easier.

Benjamin

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Here I speak as a lawyer and it is undoubtedly the case that the only people to benefit from this is of course the legal community.

However I make no excuse for that for if I have a leak in the plumbing I go to a plumber if I have a problem with the electricity then of course to an electrician.

Whatever one thinks of lawyers (and lots of people have views and with which I may not agree) they are there for a purpose.  Perhaps.............

But this is about someone getting themselves out of a problem and one not of their own making.  You either stand your ground or you compromise.  However providing you know the strength of your argument and as in most things it was confirmed in writing then the other party cannot fail to understand save of course for the fact that they turn to litigation at a drop of a hat.  That is their society.

It must be hideous owning a property and having short term tenants nearby and where you know that problems are brewing and every moment of every day.

Perhaps the way forward is to organise a meeting and here I suggest a morning meeting and thus ahead of either lunchtime or evening soirees. 

One way or the other the problem has to be faced.  Try to remain balanced organised and business like.  See if you can orchestrate a way out of this.  You will soon see if you are likely to succeed and if you are faced with a brick wall then so be it.  They will have a choice either to negotiate or to withdraw.  Knowing as I do some US clients then their position will be somewhat uncompromising.

I may be wrong.

However if you are to lose money and thus face why should you withdraw unless of course some or most of the agreements were verbal and thus this in itself would prove to be more difficult.

Difficult but you just need to get around that table for to do otherwise is a recipe for more bad feeling and perhaps further difficulties of a more serious nature.

These guys will now want to get back over the pond.  Try to help them do that but without losing huge amounts of money and of course principles both matter but cost at the same time.

This is a lawyer who could be viewed as suggesting that the only way forward is the court.  I do not agree with that.  Talk talk.

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No idea about contracts and stuff, but a few personal opinions for what they are worth:

Back in June, after they had told you they were departing end-July, had you then managed to re-let the Gite for August, what do you think would have happened when they changed their minds. I bet they would have managed to understand the contract then and you would have been getting the "our booking is until end-Sept as per this contract" and "show us our written cancellation letter ...", etc..

I have always taken the attitude that contracts are mainly intended to avoid the need for lawyers as a lot of "disputes" can be resolved just be reading the contract. Thus, they appear to be just messing you around. They signed the contract of their own free will. No reason why you should suffer financial loss because they have changed their minds.

For them this is money they have already spent and effectively said goodbye to. For you this is your living (or part of it). If you refund, then you are just giving away your hard earnt cash.

I would make it clear to them that any repeats of abusive behaviour and you will throw them out immediately without refund. Maybe notify them of that in writing (in French) and if they get abusive again just call the Gendarmes - but then I don't run Gites nor B&B's and it probably a good job I don't.


Seems to me you are under no moral nor legal obligation to refund them anything and to my mind their abusive behaviour means you should feel no moral obligation to be generous to them.


Ian

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I think that it may be beneficial to pay for a professional translation of the contract, I understand the contract refers to a situation taking place in France and French laws apply however as far as I can tell, the mother tongue of both parties is English.

Why they signed a contract they obviously didn't really understand....goodness knows.....

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thanks for the suggestions, advice and thoughts all you people.

Of the friends we have talked to about this, all have expressed surprise that we even entered into a debate about it.

one couple who also run a gite/B&B business said they would have laughed at the suggestion of giving a refund.

but its not that simple when there are 12 more days of sharing a garden, courtyard and laundry room with three hostile guests who believe they have been ripped off a months rent.

I may well take up the suggestion of a morning chat with the father, who is the most reasonable, the mother and son have short tempers and are very outspoken.

Even so, we have pretty much decided that a refund is not going to happen on our part.

If talk and pacifying fails then i think its baton down the hatches and stick to our guns...and watch the fireworks again.

Gram

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The psychological aspect of this dispute (as opposed to the legal ) is that they are probably extremely disappointed that their European plans are not going to come to fruition and you have become the scapegoat for this. As you say, they are inclined to see conspiracies everywhere and you have presumably become part of the other side, who are out to get them. They are also presumably a sandwich short of a picnic if they buy and pass around books by David Icke. ( I live on the Isle of Wight and I know what I'm talking about on this one!)

Could you give them your translation of the contract ( I agree that there's no need for you to pay for an official translation) and suggest they check it out for themselves (not sure where, American Embassy,www. amb-usa.fr ,internet forum for Americans abroad, perhaps). Although Americans are famously litigious I would have thought that they would be prepared to stand by the contract if someone they trust could explain to them what they have actually signed.

I still think that you should stand firm on this. They sound the sort of people who will see the offer of a compromise as a sign of weakness and they have already taken you for too much of a ride. Good Luck

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[quote user="Grays"]If talk and pacifying fails then i think its baton down the hatches and stick to our guns...and watch the fireworks again. Gram[/quote]

........... and if all that fails, just say the word and we'll send in 'the boys'.

There's more than enough pent-up male aggression on this Forum !!

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[quote user="Benjamin"]I think the problem that Grays is suffering with here is that very British trait, fast disappearing, of doing the right thing and being seen to be as fair as possible.


Benjamin
[/quote]

Don't agree - they are showing the very British trait of wimpishness. The Grays are right, the Americans are wrong and trying to use bullying tactics to extort money they do not deserve. Imagine the fuss if the Yanks had been told to get out after 2 months -  a deal is a deal and the Grays are running a business not a charity.

John

not

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Oi, less of the wimp bit please.

I'm 6 ft and built like a 70's era rugby player. So have no fear i am not intimidated by our guests, well perhaps the mothers a bit scary !!

We had (we thought) built up a good relationship with them over three months, but it appears we may have simply been useful to them, and now that the money question has reared itas ugly head, they are more than prepared to name call and threaten us.

more later, as i am determined to speak to them this morning and put them right.

#

Gram
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