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ceramic tiling


tan
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Hi

 

If we move to France, and my husband wants to continue in his profession as a Ceramic Tiler, working on his own, no  employees etc. Does he need to register with anyone,obviously will need to register for tax but what else do we have to do.  We do not want to work illegally.

 

THanks

 

Tan

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He will need to register with your local Chambre de Metiers (telno in 'phone book), as an Artisan, to get his SIRET number - the key to self-employment in France - (I doubt if he will need to prove qualifications as a tiler, but may need to prove experience). He will have to pay lots of social charges (4K€ in the first year) and very expensive insurance, but I suspect that Carreleur are quite sought after in most of France, so he should be able earn a reasonable living (but nothing like as good as in the UK). Oh, and do a 5-day "buisiness" course (in French) and employ an accountant.

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Thanks

 

Insurance we would take, we have that here. What is the 4K Social charge for, is that like national insurance.  Does he have to take the business course, do all sole traders in France take this?

Is there a chamber of commerce linked to the uk that we could speak to?  Have done web search, but only coing up with sites that deal with larger companies

 

Cheers

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Hello tan - I'll just give my twopenneth and hope it helps.

Setting up as self employed in France is nothing like in the UK and no way connected. The Chambre de Commerce is no way linked to the UK as far as I know!

As an artisan you will have to show some proof that you have worked as a tiler (or whatever) for two or three years (not necessarily qualifications). You register at the Chambre de Metiers as a tiler and then you have to start paying health and social security charges (cotisations) which as Nick says are high. But some departments offer start up grants and help such as reduced cotisations for the first year. Yes, you normally have to do the 4 or 5 day course but it's useful to learn French business methods, how to make VAT payments etc and also, some departments do it in English.

There are also different business sets ups. Here is a website in English which may be useful

http://www.apce.com/index.php?rubrique_id=300000112&type_page=IL&pays=1

As Nick says, you won't go short of work. Everyone has carrelage and most folks who are renovating need loads of tiling done. We have a large area which still needs doing!

Anyway, trawl through the site and learn as much as possible. Also, learn French whilst you are planning your move and don't forget to bring enough capital with you to tide you over whilst you set up and get work.

Good luck.

PS The insurance from the UK won't cover your public liability or guarantee your work in France. That's separate and on top of the cotisations!
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[quote user="LesFlamands"]In this dept. (24)

painting and decorating and tiling are the 2 trades that you do not

need any qualifications or references for. Also in 24 the CdeM run the

5 day stage in English - sad but true.
[/quote]

Charles,

Why is that sad ? When the EC opened the borders, it knew for sure, that

the huge majority of its members people, spoke only their mother

tongue. So speaking the language of that country on entry, was not a

legality and it was to be expected that immigrants would learn the language that much better, once in another country..

I imagine that you spoke French on your move to France? In the UK,

there were not many builders speaking French that I knew !! We can all

be ideal and say, if you want to work here as an Artisan, then surely

you should be able to speak French. Well I know of many excellent

Artisans all over France that arrived with sod all French and now work

alongside their French counterparts and indeed many of them now, work

solely for the French folks.

Can it then be said to be sad, that British builders often advertise for work

in the British mags and forums ? No of course not, the bottom line is

about getting work in France, OK, speaking French, is really a must

after a while, well if you really want to get the best out of your

business, although a few seem to get by simply working for fellow Brits.

As far as the 24 (and there are more and more depts these days)

offering courses in English, what a good idea. One, it ensures that

the person knows the ins and outs of how it has to be and secondly, the

French benefit from having a much needed boost with extra artisans and

also more taxes going in to the coffers............

Sad, No, not at all...............

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Miki, fair comment - I also think it is a good thing that the course is available in English. I did the course when I first arrived in French and probably didn't get as much from it as I should have. I think one of the main reasons that some people continue to work on the black is the language barrier and there is also a significant difference in the culture of setting up a business in France. Our Chambre de Metiers is now aware that it is the only route for some English to earning a living here (legally) and that they are actually hindering fellow EU citizens from making a living by having a 3 month waiting list for the course.  

I also think 'it were tougher in my day'. Having to do everything in French is more difficult but helps to improve your French. A lot of English tradesmen these days do seem to expect to throw in their job in the UK on Friday and start work in France on Monday.

As with gites there are now too many builders and I think those who are not established are going to find it very difficult over the next year or two . I would, of course, prefer that everyone is working legally as this levels the playing field a bit.

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Hi

"If we move to France, and my husband wants to continue in his

profession as a Ceramic Tiler, working on his own, no  employees

etc. Does he need to register with anyone,obviously will need to

register for tax but what else do we have to do.  We do not want

to work illegally.

 THanks

 Tan"

Some of your questions have already been answered.

My only reservation would be whether you could exist initially in France solely as a tiler.

In our area of France there are already numerous French artisans

offering this service and they will be the first choice of the French

market.

If you can offer the service as part of another, then you may have more

success - generally, the first thing that most English buyers want

changed on their properties are the kitchens and bathrooms. Both of

these areas involve tiling and if can arrange a tie-up with a local

kitchen/bathroom supplier this will generate leads for you.

On a national scale, Lapeyre www.lapeyre.fr are keen to recruit local

registered artisans to install their products. Being part of the

Lapeyre Espace Pro is worthwhile and again will generate leads.

Offering other services will increase your start-up costs and insurance but should be looked at.

Good luck with your venture.

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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"Miki, fair comment - I also think it is a good thing that the course

is available in English. I did the course when I first arrived in

French and probably didn't get as much from it as I should have. I

think one of the main reasons that some people continue to work on the

black is the language barrier and there is also a significant

difference in the culture of setting up a business in France. Our

Chambre de Metiers is now aware that it is the only route for some

English to earning a living here (legally) and that they are actually

hindering fellow EU citizens from making a living by having a 3 month

waiting list for the course. 

I also think 'it were tougher in my day'. Having to do everything in

French is more difficult but helps to improve your French. A lot of

English tradesmen these days do seem to expect to throw in their job in

the UK on Friday and start work in France on Monday.

As with gites there are now too many builders and I think those who are

not established are going to find it very difficult over the next year

or two . I would, of course, prefer that everyone is working legally as

this levels the playing field a bit.

Regards

 Charles"

Charles,

Interesting that they are doing courses in English in 24 - probably will happen in 47 then as well.

I am sure that you are right about the language barrier being a problem

for many to set up a legal business in France but then you and I have

done it.

Realistically there will always be a hardcore of newcomers and long

term English residents in France who are determined to use the system

and obtain all the benefits, CMU, RMI, etc, whilst living a comfortable

lifestyle.

These people are never going to attend courses or go any way to set up

a legal business - as long as there are people misguided enough to

employ them they have no need to.

Yours in the real world,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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I didn't have to do the course, having argued strongly that I had been

a long time in the building trade and had books etc to back it all up

from the UK. Only one problem, we only actually went down that route

for a short spell before deciding to change tack and go with the C de

Com !!

No, the serious point I was making, was that for the genuine amongst us

all and there is a large percentage after all said and done, acting

legally here, is that with teh offer of doing the course in English, it

takes away the excuse of some of the Brits to say, "well the course is

in bleedin' French innit, so no good to me" which intentionally or not

gives them the  poor excuse to work au noir. The French, by taking

that away, will leave them nowhere to run plus as I said, they are

clever enough to know that once a man or woman  is registered, she

is more or less traceable in Francel from then on, plus what I said

before, more money for the coffers, which we all know, are in dire need

for new monies to help fill.

Bob, what is the real world ? The one where we are all legally working

or the one where a man makes a crust for his family in the best way he

can ? There are very many French acting totally illegally, as I am sure

you are fully aware but for some of them, the costs of "affliation" are

prohibitive, due to one thing or another (many reasons) and they try to

get by as best as they can. It is by no means a British trait and I for

one, no longer have any idea which is the real world.

I do agree with your thoughts on those that claim RMI etc and are seen

to be whooping it up but to have claimed it, they would have had to

jump through the hoops to get there, so not sure that there are many

using that route these days for claiming money but those that do, well

the way the French are starting to nip back and charge more for many

things, it can't be long until a lot of the loopholes are shut for the

Brits. As for the CMU, a few of us have long been against the way it is

handed out so easily now, as to what it was originally intended for.

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Miki, a good question - which probably does not have an answer.

In our area I know of many French artisans (and work with some of them)

who whilst working legally carry out some work ‘on the black’. The

majority of their work is done legally and they pay the appropriate

charges, taxes and TVA.

We also have English ‘artisans’ who carry out 100% of their building

work illegally whilst being registered as gardeners, gite owners, etc,

etc.

They are avoiding their charges, taxes and TVA.

As for making a crust for their family - I am not sure where buying

expensive sports cars or installing swimming pools fits in with this.

Possibly different in your part of France.

Kind regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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As for making a crust for their family - I am not sure where buying

expensive sports cars or installing swimming pools fits in with this.

Possibly different in your part of France

The problem is Bob, we have lived and worked in three different

regions and stayed briefly in a few others and I do think many might

agree, that although fonctionaires may see things completely

different, the Brits most certainly remain the same all over. Crossing

borders has no magic spell to make a dishonest person turn clean and we all know non builders arrive and magically turn in

to builders, once in France.

The people I am talking about, are most certainly not the ones with bling

on view but the ones that have come a cropper and are stuck in a time

warp that financially sees them unable to register, unable to go on the

chomage, too far down teh scale to clamber out and even go home and

have to, one way or another bring home something to feed and cloth the

family and you can put French and Brits in the ring for that.

There are always exceptions and those will hopefully one day be forced out of the market by one means or another.

I have witnessed (and aided) the parcels handed out to those on RMIor

low income and in need at Christmas and I can assure you, no sports

cars or pools were on view in their property. My bet is that most Brits

are legal for the greater part but of course, here in France, the

dodgepot ones are easier to spot, due to the way one must be registered

and show Siren/Siret details, whereas (or at least when I left) in the

UK, that is not a requirement and one will be paying tax and insurance

without it being obvious to anyone else. I do not know which is the

best. It should be the French way but having seen so much awful

building and plumbing work by registered persons, I wonder where they

got there "ticket" from.

As you say, for Brits, it can well be through being registered for

gardening or gite maintenance, whilst in reality taking on other

building works. I guess I came from a generation, or at least a place

and time, where one placed adverts, say with Thompsons, Yellow Pages,

local rags and relied heavily on word and mouth to stay in the game and

one had to produce the goods, so to speak to carry on. So really not

sure if the way here is right or not. Perhaps a mid position from both

systems might be the answer ?

You are spot on of course with the French artisan and how he sees it

all but my gut feeling, is that it is not now just weekend au noir but

a more lengthy time. I have given up the number of times I have been

asked, when work has been needed by me or someone who has asked me to

sort something out,  how the bill will be paid ? And it was far

more rampant in Provence !

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Miki

I agree that many people both French and English work part 'au noir' and in this region most of the English  seem to do so.  I'm not sure if I can blame them.  My husband works legally for a French electrical and plumbing business.  He is getting 'official' training in things he could already do - the reason that he was taken on is that his employer (who installed our central heating) was extremely impressed with the way he had restored our B & B.  We were always realistic that the B & B would not earn enough to keep us all the time and one of us would have to work.   BUT, and this is a big but, he earns less than half the money that other blokes round here work earning on the black, and he is restricted to the hours he works etc.  If I (I'm the goody goody who is too scared to be dishonest) did not insist that we work legally then he could be earning more working only half the year and helping me with the B & B through the summer.  As it is I have to get a bit of paid help if really busy and he has to come home from work and pitch in. 

I know that we should all pay our dues etc etc, but the risk of getting caught is obviously not that high as some of the people to whom I am referring have been here longer than us and are never short of work.  In fact, he has been offered plenty of work and our French neightbour seems to think we are quite mad not simply going the same route as the family down the road.  I suppose in theory I should be happy about our 'legal' status but in fact I am simply envious of the fact that the 'illegal' have more money and more leisure than us.  What about medical cover etc I hear everyone cry.  Well when one of the aforementioned 'travailleurs au noir' was hospitalised they simply claimed that they only lived here part time and used  a relatives address in UK and E111 and all was well.

Perhaps we will get reward in heaven for our honesty - but I sure as hell would rather have the rewards now and often wonder whether our decision to remain honest but poor is just plain foolish.

Maggi

 

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Thank you all very much for your replies, it was very interesting.  We are starting French lessons, at our local university soon, so that should hald us in good stead.

We do not want to work illegally, as we want to make France our home.  We have considered Spain, but we have reservations about Spain.  We are looking for a new life, not an easy life, we knwo we will have to work hard, go without ectect, we are looking for a change in life.  We should have enough funds to buy outright and see us through the first year, providing we live on bread and cheese!.

 

Many thanks for your opinions

 

Tan

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