tan Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Hi If we move to France, and my husband wants to continue in his profession as a Ceramic Tiler, working on his own, no employees etc. Does he need to register with anyone,obviously will need to register for tax but what else do we have to do. We do not want to work illegally. THanks Tan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 He will need to register with your local Chambre de Metiers (telno in 'phone book), as an Artisan, to get his SIRET number - the key to self-employment in France - (I doubt if he will need to prove qualifications as a tiler, but may need to prove experience). He will have to pay lots of social charges (4K€ in the first year) and very expensive insurance, but I suspect that Carreleur are quite sought after in most of France, so he should be able earn a reasonable living (but nothing like as good as in the UK). Oh, and do a 5-day "buisiness" course (in French) and employ an accountant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tan Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 Thanks Insurance we would take, we have that here. What is the 4K Social charge for, is that like national insurance. Does he have to take the business course, do all sole traders in France take this?Is there a chamber of commerce linked to the uk that we could speak to? Have done web search, but only coing up with sites that deal with larger companies Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeb Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Hello tan - I'll just give my twopenneth and hope it helps.Setting up as self employed in France is nothing like in the UK and no way connected. The Chambre de Commerce is no way linked to the UK as far as I know!As an artisan you will have to show some proof that you have worked as a tiler (or whatever) for two or three years (not necessarily qualifications). You register at the Chambre de Metiers as a tiler and then you have to start paying health and social security charges (cotisations) which as Nick says are high. But some departments offer start up grants and help such as reduced cotisations for the first year. Yes, you normally have to do the 4 or 5 day course but it's useful to learn French business methods, how to make VAT payments etc and also, some departments do it in English.There are also different business sets ups. Here is a website in English which may be usefulhttp://www.apce.com/index.php?rubrique_id=300000112&type_page=IL&pays=1As Nick says, you won't go short of work. Everyone has carrelage and most folks who are renovating need loads of tiling done. We have a large area which still needs doing!Anyway, trawl through the site and learn as much as possible. Also, learn French whilst you are planning your move and don't forget to bring enough capital with you to tide you over whilst you set up and get work.Good luck.PS The insurance from the UK won't cover your public liability or guarantee your work in France. That's separate and on top of the cotisations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesFlamands Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 In this dept. (24) painting and decorating and tiling are the 2 trades that you do not need any qualifications or references for. Also in 24 the CdeM run the 5 day stage in English - sad but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 [quote user="LesFlamands"]In this dept. (24)painting and decorating and tiling are the 2 trades that you do notneed any qualifications or references for. Also in 24 the CdeM run the5 day stage in English - sad but true.[/quote]Charles,Why is that sad ? When the EC opened the borders, it knew for sure, thatthe huge majority of its members people, spoke only their mothertongue. So speaking the language of that country on entry, was not alegality and it was to be expected that immigrants would learn the language that much better, once in another country..I imagine that you spoke French on your move to France? In the UK,there were not many builders speaking French that I knew !! We can allbe ideal and say, if you want to work here as an Artisan, then surelyyou should be able to speak French. Well I know of many excellentArtisans all over France that arrived with sod all French and now workalongside their French counterparts and indeed many of them now, worksolely for the French folks.Can it then be said to be sad, that British builders often advertise for workin the British mags and forums ? No of course not, the bottom line isabout getting work in France, OK, speaking French, is really a mustafter a while, well if you really want to get the best out of yourbusiness, although a few seem to get by simply working for fellow Brits.As far as the 24 (and there are more and more depts these days)offering courses in English, what a good idea. One, it ensures thatthe person knows the ins and outs of how it has to be and secondly, theFrench benefit from having a much needed boost with extra artisans andalso more taxes going in to the coffers............Sad, No, not at all............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesFlamands Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Miki, fair comment - I also think it is a good thing that the course is available in English. I did the course when I first arrived in French and probably didn't get as much from it as I should have. I think one of the main reasons that some people continue to work on the black is the language barrier and there is also a significant difference in the culture of setting up a business in France. Our Chambre de Metiers is now aware that it is the only route for some English to earning a living here (legally) and that they are actually hindering fellow EU citizens from making a living by having a 3 month waiting list for the course. I also think 'it were tougher in my day'. Having to do everything in French is more difficult but helps to improve your French. A lot of English tradesmen these days do seem to expect to throw in their job in the UK on Friday and start work in France on Monday.As with gites there are now too many builders and I think those who are not established are going to find it very difficult over the next year or two . I would, of course, prefer that everyone is working legally as this levels the playing field a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobc Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Hi"If we move to France, and my husband wants to continue in hisprofession as a Ceramic Tiler, working on his own, no employeesetc. Does he need to register with anyone,obviously will need toregister for tax but what else do we have to do. We do not wantto work illegally. THanks Tan"Some of your questions have already been answered.My only reservation would be whether you could exist initially in France solely as a tiler.In our area of France there are already numerous French artisansoffering this service and they will be the first choice of the Frenchmarket.If you can offer the service as part of another, then you may have moresuccess - generally, the first thing that most English buyers wantchanged on their properties are the kitchens and bathrooms. Both ofthese areas involve tiling and if can arrange a tie-up with a localkitchen/bathroom supplier this will generate leads for you.On a national scale, Lapeyre www.lapeyre.fr are keen to recruit localregistered artisans to install their products. Being part of theLapeyre Espace Pro is worthwhile and again will generate leads.Offering other services will increase your start-up costs and insurance but should be looked at.Good luck with your venture.Bob Clarkehttp://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobc Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 "Miki, fair comment - I also think it is a good thing that the courseis available in English. I did the course when I first arrived inFrench and probably didn't get as much from it as I should have. Ithink one of the main reasons that some people continue to work on theblack is the language barrier and there is also a significantdifference in the culture of setting up a business in France. OurChambre de Metiers is now aware that it is the only route for someEnglish to earning a living here (legally) and that they are actuallyhindering fellow EU citizens from making a living by having a 3 monthwaiting list for the course. I also think 'it were tougher in my day'. Having to do everything inFrench is more difficult but helps to improve your French. A lot ofEnglish tradesmen these days do seem to expect to throw in their job inthe UK on Friday and start work in France on Monday.As with gites there are now too many builders and I think those who arenot established are going to find it very difficult over the next yearor two . I would, of course, prefer that everyone is working legally asthis levels the playing field a bit.Regards Charles"Charles,Interesting that they are doing courses in English in 24 - probably will happen in 47 then as well.I am sure that you are right about the language barrier being a problemfor many to set up a legal business in France but then you and I havedone it.Realistically there will always be a hardcore of newcomers and longterm English residents in France who are determined to use the systemand obtain all the benefits, CMU, RMI, etc, whilst living a comfortablelifestyle.These people are never going to attend courses or go any way to set upa legal business - as long as there are people misguided enough toemploy them they have no need to.Yours in the real world,Bob Clarkehttp://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 I didn't have to do the course, having argued strongly that I had beena long time in the building trade and had books etc to back it all upfrom the UK. Only one problem, we only actually went down that routefor a short spell before deciding to change tack and go with the C deCom !! No, the serious point I was making, was that for the genuine amongst usall and there is a large percentage after all said and done, actinglegally here, is that with teh offer of doing the course in English, ittakes away the excuse of some of the Brits to say, "well the course isin bleedin' French innit, so no good to me" which intentionally or notgives them the poor excuse to work au noir. The French, by takingthat away, will leave them nowhere to run plus as I said, they areclever enough to know that once a man or woman is registered, sheis more or less traceable in Francel from then on, plus what I saidbefore, more money for the coffers, which we all know, are in dire needfor new monies to help fill.Bob, what is the real world ? The one where we are all legally workingor the one where a man makes a crust for his family in the best way hecan ? There are very many French acting totally illegally, as I am sureyou are fully aware but for some of them, the costs of "affliation" areprohibitive, due to one thing or another (many reasons) and they try toget by as best as they can. It is by no means a British trait and I forone, no longer have any idea which is the real world.I do agree with your thoughts on those that claim RMI etc and are seento be whooping it up but to have claimed it, they would have had tojump through the hoops to get there, so not sure that there are manyusing that route these days for claiming money but those that do, wellthe way the French are starting to nip back and charge more for manythings, it can't be long until a lot of the loopholes are shut for theBrits. As for the CMU, a few of us have long been against the way it ishanded out so easily now, as to what it was originally intended for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobc Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 Miki, a good question - which probably does not have an answer.In our area I know of many French artisans (and work with some of them)who whilst working legally carry out some work ‘on the black’. Themajority of their work is done legally and they pay the appropriatecharges, taxes and TVA.We also have English ‘artisans’ who carry out 100% of their buildingwork illegally whilst being registered as gardeners, gite owners, etc,etc.They are avoiding their charges, taxes and TVA.As for making a crust for their family - I am not sure where buyingexpensive sports cars or installing swimming pools fits in with this.Possibly different in your part of France.Kind regards,Bob Clarkehttp://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 As for making a crust for their family - I am not sure where buyingexpensive sports cars or installing swimming pools fits in with this.Possibly different in your part of FranceThe problem is Bob, we have lived and worked in three differentregions and stayed briefly in a few others and I do think many mightagree, that although fonctionaires may see things completelydifferent, the Brits most certainly remain the same all over. Crossingborders has no magic spell to make a dishonest person turn clean and we all know non builders arrive and magically turn into builders, once in France.The people I am talking about, are most certainly not the ones with blingon view but the ones that have come a cropper and are stuck in a timewarp that financially sees them unable to register, unable to go on thechomage, too far down teh scale to clamber out and even go home andhave to, one way or another bring home something to feed and cloth thefamily and you can put French and Brits in the ring for that. There are always exceptions and those will hopefully one day be forced out of the market by one means or another.I have witnessed (and aided) the parcels handed out to those on RMIorlow income and in need at Christmas and I can assure you, no sportscars or pools were on view in their property. My bet is that most Britsare legal for the greater part but of course, here in France, thedodgepot ones are easier to spot, due to the way one must be registeredand show Siren/Siret details, whereas (or at least when I left) in theUK, that is not a requirement and one will be paying tax and insurancewithout it being obvious to anyone else. I do not know which is thebest. It should be the French way but having seen so much awfulbuilding and plumbing work by registered persons, I wonder where theygot there "ticket" from. As you say, for Brits, it can well be through being registered forgardening or gite maintenance, whilst in reality taking on otherbuilding works. I guess I came from a generation, or at least a placeand time, where one placed adverts, say with Thompsons, Yellow Pages,local rags and relied heavily on word and mouth to stay in the game andone had to produce the goods, so to speak to carry on. So really notsure if the way here is right or not. Perhaps a mid position from bothsystems might be the answer ?You are spot on of course with the French artisan and how he sees itall but my gut feeling, is that it is not now just weekend au noir buta more lengthy time. I have given up the number of times I have beenasked, when work has been needed by me or someone who has asked me tosort something out, how the bill will be paid ? And it was farmore rampant in Provence ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 MikiI agree that many people both French and English work part 'au noir' and in this region most of the English seem to do so. I'm not sure if I can blame them. My husband works legally for a French electrical and plumbing business. He is getting 'official' training in things he could already do - the reason that he was taken on is that his employer (who installed our central heating) was extremely impressed with the way he had restored our B & B. We were always realistic that the B & B would not earn enough to keep us all the time and one of us would have to work. BUT, and this is a big but, he earns less than half the money that other blokes round here work earning on the black, and he is restricted to the hours he works etc. If I (I'm the goody goody who is too scared to be dishonest) did not insist that we work legally then he could be earning more working only half the year and helping me with the B & B through the summer. As it is I have to get a bit of paid help if really busy and he has to come home from work and pitch in. I know that we should all pay our dues etc etc, but the risk of getting caught is obviously not that high as some of the people to whom I am referring have been here longer than us and are never short of work. In fact, he has been offered plenty of work and our French neightbour seems to think we are quite mad not simply going the same route as the family down the road. I suppose in theory I should be happy about our 'legal' status but in fact I am simply envious of the fact that the 'illegal' have more money and more leisure than us. What about medical cover etc I hear everyone cry. Well when one of the aforementioned 'travailleurs au noir' was hospitalised they simply claimed that they only lived here part time and used a relatives address in UK and E111 and all was well.Perhaps we will get reward in heaven for our honesty - but I sure as hell would rather have the rewards now and often wonder whether our decision to remain honest but poor is just plain foolish.Maggi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tan Posted January 18, 2006 Author Share Posted January 18, 2006 Thank you all very much for your replies, it was very interesting. We are starting French lessons, at our local university soon, so that should hald us in good stead.We do not want to work illegally, as we want to make France our home. We have considered Spain, but we have reservations about Spain. We are looking for a new life, not an easy life, we knwo we will have to work hard, go without ectect, we are looking for a change in life. We should have enough funds to buy outright and see us through the first year, providing we live on bread and cheese!. Many thanks for your opinions Tan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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