Doing Your Own Renovation Works

[garyH]

I wonder if anybody out there could give me some advise.  My wife and I will shortly be purchasing a house in the Brittany area which will consist of a farmhouse which is habitable but needs minor work which also has a couple of barns in need of renovation which we hope to convert into dwellings/gites. I have been in the UK Construction industry most of my working life (I am currently a Construction Site Manager for one of the largest construction companies in the UK ) and I have a thorough knowledge of building work so I would like to do, most if not all, the work myself.  

Q1/. Do I need to be a qualified artisan/tradesman to reroof, rewire, re-plumb and do the structural alterations to the property or would the French Authorities accept my qualifications as a Construction Site/Project Manager.

From browsing some of the comments in this forum from other members it is clear that there are many differences between French and English construction requirements.  An example in the forum at the moment for instance is the French requirement that electrical ring mains in houses is not allowed.  I have copies of the relevant building regulations for the various aspects of house building in the UK but nothing relevant to France.

Q2/. Where would I get copies of the French equivalent of our building regulations and (wait for this ) can you get them in English? (ouch!) 

If any members out there could give me any further information on the subject I would be very grateful. 

Regards

GaryH 

[Emma and David<P>Emma and David <P><P>Montaigu<P>]

Hi Gary,

We are currently in the middle of a massive renovation project and we are doing most of it our selves. I can't answer many of your questions, but I do know that in France the electrics must have an EDF certificate. ths means that the work either has to be carried out by a EDF registered electrician or by yourself and then checked by an EDF eletrician to be given the appropriate certificate. I think the same hing applies with plumbing but not roofing.

I hope I have shone the tiniest light!

Best of luck

[garyH]

Hi Emma & David

Thanks for the information I will try and find more about the EDF specification for rewiring.

Best Regards

GaryH

[Punch]

[quote]Hi Gary,We are currently in the middle of a massive renovation project and we are doing most of it our selves. I can't answer many of your questions, but I do know that in France the electrics must h...[/quote]

 

Not quite...........May I offer a few corrections?

The EDF may ask for a certificate issued by the Consuel who are a seperate inspectorate body. Often this certificate is required on some renovation works and all new works. The EDF will often not connect you unless you have this "attestation de conformité"

The work does not have to be carried out by an "EDF registered eclectrician" (Whatever one of those is!" ) I am often recommened by the EDF but not registered with them.

There is no requirement of this sort for plumbing works. However, gas works require a certificate.

Paul

Mayenne Renovations (53)

 

 

 

[Punch]

[quote]Hi Gary,We are currently in the middle of a massive renovation project and we are doing most of it our selves. I can't answer many of your questions, but I do know that in France the electrics must h...[/quote]

We are currently in the middle of a massive renovation project and we are doing most of it our selves. I can't answer many of your questions, but I do know that in France the electrics must have an EDF certificate. ths means that the work either has to be carried out by a EDF registered electrician or by yourself and then checked by an EDF eletrician to be given the appropriate certificate. I think the same hing applies with plumbing but not roofing.

Not quite...........May I offer a few corrections?

The EDF may ask for a certificate issued by the Consuel who are a seperate inspectorate body. Often this certificate is required on some renovation works and all new works. The EDF will often not connect you unless you have this "attestation de conformité"

The work does not have to be carried out by an "EDF registered eclectrician" (Whatever one of those is!" ) I am often recommened by the EDF but not registered with them.

There is no requirement of this sort for plumbing works. However, gas works require a certificate.

Paul

Mayenne Renovations (53)

 

 

 

[Punch]

[quote]Hi Gary,We are currently in the middle of a massive renovation project and we are doing most of it our selves. I can't answer many of your questions, but I do know that in France the electrics must h...[/quote]

We are currently in the middle of a massive renovation project and we are doing most of it our selves. I can't answer many of your questions, but I do know that in France the electrics must have an EDF certificate. ths means that the work either has to be carried out by a EDF registered electrician or by yourself and then checked by an EDF eletrician to be given the appropriate certificate. I think the same hing applies with plumbing but not roofing.

Not quite...........May I offer a few corrections?

The EDF may ask for a certificate issued by the Consuel who are a seperate inspectorate body. Often this certificate is required on some renovation works and all new works. The EDF will often not connect you unless you have this "attestation de conformité"

The work does not have to be carried out by an "EDF registered eclectrician" (Whatever one of those is!" ) I am often recommened by the EDF but not registered with them.

There is no requirement of this sort for plumbing works. However, gas works require a certificate.

Paul

Mayenne Renovations (53)

 

 

 

[garyH]

Thanks for that Paul.

It sounds like the situation in France is similar in many ways to the UK.  For instance I know plenty of plumbers in UK who install gas central heating systems but are not registered with Corgi, but they all pay for a Corgi fitter to inspect and test their installations and make the final gas connections etc.  There's nothing wrong with this, the job still gets done right or the Corgi fitter wouldnt put his name to it.

Regards

GaryH

[billyo]

Gary

I was told by my neighbour whos a sparky that you can get the french wiring regs in English, BUT, they cost 800 euros a copy. So, I got him and the wife around for a barby and he now pops in for a beer most weekends to offer 'advice', which mainly involves him suicking hios teeth saying 'you can do it that way, but I do it this way' etc. Result!

[garyH]

Hi Billyo

sounds like you have a good source of info there, especially if the French regs in English are 800 EUR.  You could rewire a house for the price of the regs!  I had some feedback from other forums and found out that the standard UK twin and earth cable is not allowed in France because the earth is not double insulated, so they generally run their circuits in double insulated singles inside conduit.  Havent found out yet if they use galv conduit or plastic or both.  Still the more you dig the more you find out.  The French EDF website sent me a 30 page guide called l'electricite chez vous which although in French has some examples of circuits etc.

Thanks for your reply though, every little helps.

Regards Gary

[gert]

hi,

i heard an interesting tried and tested little tip recently. before you apply for planning permission to convert the barns tell edf you need 1 socket and 1 switch in there in order to use it as a workshop. get this installed by an acredited sparky and then get the consuel to sign it off at this stage.thereafter you can carry on and wire the whole thing yourself without further inspection or consuel visits.haven`t done this myself so obviously investigate further but i believe there is some sort of loophole which makes this possible.good luck.

[garyH]

Hi Gert

Thats fantastic, thanks for the tip

Regards, Gary

[Margie]

We also have done all of our own works except for installation of our fosse. I have found 'Buying & Restoring old property in France' by David Everett very informative. I bought a book on electrics from my local Leclerc supermarket but if you have a local Weldom shop they have a very useful free booklet on electrics which we found easier to understand, both are in French of course but mostly all diagrams so fairly easy to comprende.

[garyH]

Hi Margie,

Thanks for that, I will look out for these publications.  Nice hearing from you

Regards

Garry H

[Thumper]

We recently purchased a house in the Vienne which had never had a mains electricity supply. For that reason it has also never had a certificate. In October (after three months, but that's another story!) we had the main meter installed, and were allowed to add two sockets (by ourselves) direct to the meter by way of temporary supply. We now have a year to have the whole thing wired up properly. We've been lead to understand that, because of the situation, all that work will have to be carried out by a fully certified electrician - from start to finish - and the certificate will not be issued unless that stipulation is met. Without it we will not be permitted a "full supply" - we currently have 3kw.

That also means that the installation will have to meet the full letter of the latest regulations, and they seem very strict. The old days of one socket in a French kitchen with a dozen adaptors are long gone, and the first electrician we contacted has given us a rough idea of what to expect. This includes 12 sockets in the kitchen, four in every bedroom, a telephone socket and TV socket (yes, he says the electrician must do those too, at the same time!) in just about every room, and separate supplies for all major appliances, such as washing machine, dishwasher, tumble drier and so forth. Even though we do not want televisions in every room, or even a telephone for that matter, we will still have to agree to the installation of the appropriate sockets. That, anyway, is how the picture's been painted for us. Needless to say, we're not using that electrician, but that's more because his mark-up on materials was 1000% (the 12 sockets in the kitchen were going to cost over 400 euros, materials only.) If he is wrong, then I welcome any advice to the contrary . . . please!!

To add to the complication, the house does have a 12 volt supply based on huge batteries and solar panels on the roof, with a bizarre network of wires, cables, sockets and trunking threaded through the house like a fungal infection. All that will have to come out first. Oh, the joys.

On the question of wiring, I believe it will also be illegal to install the familiar three-core cable with uninsulated earth in the UK before long - this year possibly? - but this may only be enforced on new-builds. Similarly, it will also be necessary for new and major rewiring projects to be carried out by accredited electricians too, so the two sides of the Channel appear to be moving closer into line as the years pass.

[Anton Redman]

Suggest you read the posting from Punch above. He makes his living doing this. You will have a harder time, (than a contractor theCONSUEL knows), with the Inspector from the CONSUEL if you do the electricity work yourself but if you read and understand the regulations or a good text book first you should pass.

The requirements for new build can be checked out during a visit to one of the 'villages' of show homes for new design and build which are set up in the major cities of France or by having a look at an open day from one of the builders. If they have done it then you need to do it.

I do not want to be drawn on the subject but in a World where you can change the brake pads on your car  there is something illogical about not being able to install a socket in a kitchen. Also as of last year it was easier to become certified as a Pratt & Whitney engineer than to be qualified in the UK for electrical work

[La Guerriere]

Going back to the original posting, it would seem that your "main" house already has electricity. Even though the system may be crappy, if you are already connected to EDF, you don't need inspection by CONSUEL as long as you are just improving and making safe (mise en securite). But out of sheer self-interest, you should make it comply as best you can with latest French norms NF C 15 100.

If you have outbuildings which you want to convert and add a separate electricity supply, not fed via the main house, you will be subject to CONSUEL inspection. They have a website you can look at.

Also look at the PROMOTELEC website and get their Littel Red Book, which tells you a lot of what you need to know.

Jim

[sanglier]

I am currently doing my own electrics using this book, http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/2212114311/qid=1138214093/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/403-2381662-6245223

L'installation électrique
de Thierry Gallauziaux, David Fedullo

 

Great diagrams and easy to understand even with my poor French, a must.

 

 

 

 

[Thumper]

Sanglier, I'm not sure where that places you with regard to insurance? In our case, because the house has never had electricity before, we have to use a registered French electrician, and we will not be issued with the necessary certificate without. If a house already has electricicty, then my understanding is that you may do additional work yourself, but that it must be inspected. Can anyone else shed more light on this?

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="Thumper"]Sanglier, I'm not sure where that places you with regard to insurance? In our case, because the house has never had electricity before, we have to use a registered French electrician, and we will not be issued with the necessary certificate without. If a house already has electricicty, then my understanding is that you may do additional work yourself, but that it must be inspected. Can anyone else shed more light on this?[/quote]

Sorry, but this isn't the case (either of them). To get a new connection from EDF, you must have a certificate from the electrical inspection body, the Consuel. It does not matter who does the installation, it just must conform to the standards. The Consuel obviously prefer work done by electricians they know, but that is probably just to ease their workload!

If you already have a supply, then you are more-or-less at liberty to do what you want, as no inspection is needed. That said, I would always advocate using a pro to do electricity, if you don't know all the ins and outs.

[Gastines]

The one point about doing all your own renovation work, is the alteration to you CGTif you sell. I believe NONE of the costs of any work, unless done by a French workman+TVA is allowed!!! The first 2 houses I renovated, mostly with kitchens/bathroom suites/timber/Gyproc stud +430 sheets plasterboard and even carpets, all bought in UK. They used to allow 3 times the cost,providing you had UK Vat receipt, off your profit margin if you sold. Not any more I'm afraid. OK if you are not thinking of selling for many years but a serious hole in your profits/main asset if you sell in the short term.

On the subject of electrics, those first 2 were wired completly with UK cable/plugs and sockets. On selling,I had to get an accredited French Surveyor to check that the work was satisfactory,price it so that my receipts tallied with materials used and submit his report to the Paris tax office before I had the monet from the Notaire.This took 4 months but nothing was deducted,one sold to a German, the other buyer French and nothing was mentioned about the electrics!!! A bit different now.On having a fuse board and one socket in another property to enable me to start work, I had to get it installed with a certificate before EDF would connect.

Regards.By St.Malo.

[gayns]

Gastine,

Can I pick your brains regarding your post about doing your renovations?

I am about to build my own home.  I have just moved to France and am not registering as an artisan as I will not be looking for work during the build.  However, I seem to be hitting a brick wall with regards to getting my work covered by a warranty (like the NHBC or Zurich warranty in the UK that you can get). 

I have been advised by the Notaire that, because I cannot get decinnel insurance (which would otherwise cover the work I do) as I am not a registered artisan in France, if I sell the property within 10 years, I merely state that there is no decinnel insurance on it.  He did not seem to think it would be a problem.

The thing is, I have found out that if someone was renovating a property and sold within 10 years, a decinnel insurance would be required also.  Are you registered to do your renovations in France or have you found that this has not been an issue in selling your properties on?

There doesn't seem to be any solid information around with regards to this.  I would assume that banks lending mortgages on such properties would want this decinnel insurance but then again, they don't ask for the properties to be surveyed, do they?

My property will be my only residence, but I am pretty certain that I will be moving within 10 years.  So although I will not have the CGT issue, I also don't want to have a 'decinnel' problem either!

[Gastines]

Picking my brains will not help you on this subject I'm afraid. I did start making enquiries about doing a new build but found that I came up against problems from day one.The permit to build from the Mairie was bad enough if you're not recognised as a constructor here. When pricing work up I found it was almost as cheap to call in a contractor to submit plans for one of their set designs. Obviuosly all the material quantities are already worked out The only thing to be wary of is cost of connecting to services.and in some area's building permits are being held up untill main services are upgraded.. If you own the land with permission to build, that takes away a large expense.I have no doubt if you trawl through this site there will be somebody more able to help you.Bonne Chance!!

Regards. By St.Malo.

[BJSLIV]

The insurance requirements were introduced to protect new home buyers against dodgy tradesmen and developers. But nobody is going to make you have the insurance to protect you from youself!.

There is no enforcement or any legal penalties in cases where the insurance does not exist

The main problem with the absence of a ten year guarantee is if you need to sell within ten years then it weakens your position as a seller.

As it is a legal requirement for both the artisans 10 year insurance and the purchasers (Domage Ouvrage) insurance to be in place you would be selling a property that is technically illegal.

Some purchasers may be put off, others will seek to reduce the purchase price. Ultimately if you sell the property without the insurance you could be held personally be liable for any failings that come to light during the ten year period.