Who carries the can?

[zeb]

Having quoted for a job, the client wants to cut corners in some places (ordinary placo in shower/bathrooms, cheaper foil insulation, no extractor fans etc). We've pointed out that we can't guarantee any work/material in these instances but how do we stand legally? Should we say as much on our devis - will that cover us?

The property is being converted to sell on.

[LanguedocGal]

Zeb, how about redoing the quote to reflect the new elements? My artisan did that because certain things that I thought could be done were not allowed as the building is in a conservation area.

Providing a new devis meant we were both clear on exactly what his personal guarantee covered. His devis was very precise, even including the brands of certain products. 

I had to sign and date the new devis and so I imagine that he is covered but  I would be interested to hear other views on this.

 

[Nick Trollope]

In reality, if the job isn't up to scratch, the insurance ain't valid anyway - I doubt if it matters why the job ain't up to scratch...

Nonetheless, I would (indeed I do), put all the info you can into a revised devis (remembering that all devis over 150€ must be detailed anyway) & get them to sign it. No comeback on you.

Then again, if someone needs to save 20€ on a sheet of plasterboard, can they afford the rest of the job/will they pay?

 

 

[Chris Head]

Zeb, I'd just stick to your spec and your price, it's your work and your reputation. If they don't like it and you're OK for work then don't be manipulated. 

[chris pp]

Shock, horror, I agree with Chris, I simply won't do it, when people have asked me for the quick / cheap job I simply tell them "Sorry, I don't think I'm the person for the job, I hope that you find someone to do it for you". I then explain that it's a false economy and that it costs far more in the long run to try and correct mistakes after the jobs finished, as in ripping the whole thing out and starting again.

It's a no no, Chris

[Tresco]

[quote user="zeb"] The property is being converted to sell on.[/quote]

Yes, but you are staying.

Nick is probably right re the legal aspect, but when the shower area starts to fall apart, as it will do, quickly, then it is your name that will bear the brunt, not the long gone people who paid you to do a cheapskate job.

Walk away, zeb.

 

[Val_2]

Cover yourself in writing all details down is the best plan. For any materials and other fittings etc that are not to builder standard, write a disclaimer both for yourself and your insurers - we do this when clients have insisted on fittings especially lights from a certain cheap brico outlet and we know they are not to conformité. this way you are covered against any comeback, your insurer has been notified so they won't follow any claim and your client has the cheaper stuff he wants.

[zeb]

Thanks all for your comments. Most of the spec is OK ( it's a very large job and we are bidding for a bit at a time), it's just one or two bits which seem a bit penny pinching and they are the ones which will cause the problems later (the shower rooms).

Have managed to convince the guy that he definitely needs the electrician to install extractors, and for the rest we have rewritten the devis with disclaimer for guy to sign, but today will discuss hydrofuge - FGS, it will only work out at a couple of hundred euros extra, if that! If he doesn't like it...........!

Thanks.......

[LanguedocGal]

Good for you Zeb, I thought it would be a pity to lose the job unless it was a really crummy job/client.

 On a slightly different but related point. 

I have discovered something about Artisan/client contracts that astounded me.

A few months ago, owners of properties in my area a ‘secteur sauvegarde’ were summoned to a meeting by the Town planners and the Mairie regarding the façade renovation programme. 

Whilst warning us about what we could and couldn’t do, a French owner pointed  out 'gleefully'', it sounded to me, that in any case it was the ‘’Artisan’s responsibility’’ if we installed the wrong thing.  I was a little flabbergasted because at this point, we were discussing the replacement/renovation of 18th and 19^th century balconies and wooden windows.  So, I asked the Urbanist to explain. 

It transpired, for example, that if an owner asks an Artisan to install a high quality PVC window made to resemble the existing wooden ones, the Municipalite would pursue the Artisan and not the owner.  The logic being that the responsibility lies with the Artisans, as they should know the regulations governing conservation areas, which they are obliged to abide by. So, even if the window and installation were of excellent quality, the Planners said it was their duty to pursue the Artisan and not the owner who had made the decision. 

Well, talk about a Nanny State!  Even though, I am the protected party here, I can’t say I appreciated it as in so many areas of French life, the ‘State’ determines responsibility in the most illogical (for me) fashion treating the individual like imbeciles. 

People at the meeting were saying that the time given to us for the renovations wasn't enough as there weren't enough highly qualified artisans available locally to do the work as it's quite a large sector. I then wondered what would happen if someone brought over a qualified fitter from another European country e.g  Poland[;-)]  and mistakes were made regarding the material? Who would they pursue? By this point, there were so many angry owners screaming at the planners for other gripes that I thought I’d belt up.

So, my questions to Artisans on this forum; are you aware of this law or were the Planners just fibbing to escape lynching by the angry mob before them?

A rather large can for Artisans to carry..

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="LanguedocGal"]

 On a slightly different but related point. 

I have discovered something about Artisan/client contracts that astounded me.

A few months ago, owners of properties in my area a ‘secteur sauvegarde’ were summoned to a meeting by the Town planners and the Mairie regarding the façade renovation programme. 

Whilst warning us about what we could and couldn’t do, a French owner pointed  out 'gleefully'', it sounded to me, that in any case it was the ‘’Artisan’s responsibility’’ if we installed the wrong thing. 

[/quote]

For it is so. Yes, I am aware of this - which is why we pay insurance!

In actual fact, it is (as with everything regarding planning & standards) ultimately the homeowners responsibility, but he/she would just defer to the Artisans insurance - which is why they only employ properly insured Artisans! Which nicely covers you point about your Polish specialist, I reckon...

 

[LanguedocGal]

Thanks.

My reference to a Pole was purely tongue in cheek , as it's highly unlikely the municipalite would accept foreign contractors even those from other EU member countries. The urbanists have to approve everything (colours of facades etc) for each building so, even if owners wanted, I doubt very much they could bring anyone over.

I was simply shocked by such a condition as I, naturally, expected all responsibility for non compliance to fall firmly on the shoulder of the owner as they are the one's instructing the artisan. In my understanding, the Artisan's insurance covered the rectification of shoddy work but this goes way beyond that.

 

 

 

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="LanguedocGal"]

. In my understanding, the Artisan's insurance covered the rectification of shoddy work .

[/quote]

Mine doesn't. If it did, I'd be in clover!