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SIRET Numbers


Quillan
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Before I say what I want to say I must make it clear my moderators hat is very much off for this post.

I followed the link to the new part of the LF website from this part of the forum where there are people advertising. I noticed that only one person has quoted their SIRET number. I could be quick of the mark and suggest that the others advertising there do not have SIRET numbers but to be honest I don't know. I see we also have a UK based surveyor advertising, what does he know about French house construction and earthquack proofing a modern house etc, this is probably why FRICS is not recognised in France as far as I am aware (been told this by many a French agent and notaire).

If LF are going to allow web advertising then they must come up with either a statement preceding all adverts (at the entry point to the web page on which the adverts are displayed) informing people that they should always check that the people they employ are properly registered in France and how they can do so. Alternatively, like many English language news papers now operating in France, only accept advertisements from people who can prove that they are registered in France and ensure that their SIRET number is clearly shown on their advertisement.

There are many people in the UK and here in France who are totaly ignorant of the facts about employing a person not registered in France to work on their home and the possible very bad consequences of doing so.

I also feel that it is a insult to allow unregistered people to advertise when there are many hard working expats here who have at great personal expense placed themselves in the French system and are fully SIRETed, insured and qualified to work here in France.

And finally it does not in my opinion show LF in a good professional light especially when on many occasions both in the magazine and on the forum it has been expressed the importance of employing only registered people in France.

I am sorry if what I have said has upset anyone personally which was not my intention, I just felt it had to be said.

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I agree with all that.

Some 'Artsans' are aware of the rules and sometime create false Siret numbers. You can check that a number is valid (for the services offered) by typing in the name at www.infobilan.com . You should also ask to see an 'attestation decennale' which will list the trades that the Artisan is covered for - major works only, don't expect to see plasterboarding and painting listed unless these are the only insured trades.

This all applies to French native as well as Artisans of foreign origin.

As regards publications such as Living France and French Property News (both published in the UK) they have always been pretty vague and unprofessional about the legalities in France. This is in their own interest as it generates greater advertising income.

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I totally agree with your comments the sooner people wake up to the idea that they are employing ilegal workers the better.

My husband is a self employed artisan and we find it frustrating that people continue to employ un registered workers and that these workers get away without paying cotisations they often charge higher rates than registered artisans and blag their way as the people employing them have no idea of the way things opperate in France. So the sooner they can advertise the better. 

Karen.

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Are you saying that we should be "siret policeman" and maybe grass up those working without siret numbers  maybe even catch someone painting a neighbours fence for a little bit of pocket money 

Maybe it can be added to the moderators lists of dutys

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SORRY!!

I meant to type CAN'T advertise. I get so heated up about this subject and got carried away. We have a guy near us who is not registered and he has 6 months work and is earning a  lot of money.

Please therefore check for siret no's when employing people and give the work to genuine artisans after all we are the ones paying into the system for all your benefits.

Karen. 

 

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I think the issue Quillan raises is not so much the ethics of working without being properly registered, although clearly this is an important issue, but the fact that this forum is linked to advertisements that do not carry siret numbers. I entirely agree with his comments that this suggests these people might not be properly registered. Of course, the advertisers may well be charged for their advertisement in terms of words and be completely registered but think that it is not worth the extra bob to put in a siret number. But it is unfortunate that some of these ads look like they are offering their services unregistered, when so much good advice is given on the forum about how to do things properly.

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You say that the attestation decennale should list the major trades. Like electrics? Plumbing? Structural work? Roofing? Anything else? Re: 'artisans' - if it's found that the artisans weren't registered and didn't have real siret nos, who's liable if something goes wrong? The artisan or the Maitre d.?

 

Ernie

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Ernie - This subject has been covered on the forum many times before but here are a few facts.

1) If you employ a unregistered person to carry out work they are not able to insure both themselves or their work.

2) They are not able to issue a legal facture or devise which means if it does go wrong you have no method of getting your money make.

3) Employing a person who is not registered usually means they are working 'on the black' which makes employing them illegal.

4) If something goes wrong and the person working illegally for you is hurt, injured or at worse dies you are liable under French law which means the victims family can come to you for compensation.

5) Your house insurer, should they discover what you have done, is highly unlikely to pay out for any damage done by such a person and can if they wish null your complete house insurance.

Item 4 does indeed happen as has been documented over the last 12 months in various news papers (both French and English language) in France.

Use the following link to see these and all the other issues about employing a no registered person

http://forums.livingfrance.com/shwmessage.aspx?forumid=287&messageid=196920#bm197257

If you do an advanced search you should be able to dig up more information.

I would like to add that this practice is not limited to only English people working here, in fact statistics would suggest they are only a very small proportion of people carrying out these practices.

As I said there are a lot of English people who are totally unaware of the consiquences of employing such people.

If you want to debate the pro's (if there are any) and cons (and there are loads) further of working on the black you can do so by adding to the thread whos' link I have posted above which is a more suitable place.

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Thanks Quillan. I'm sorry if it's all been chewed over before. I looked back through the links you gave but I'm afraid I'm still in the dark about one or two things.

Here's a situation: I take on a contractor to do some building. The contractor employs some artisans. They're self-employed. Let's say that one or two of them don't have Siret numbers. No one says anything. Contractor had showed me his attestation decennale. It said that it covers all the main trades. Now, let's say two years after the job is complete something major goes wrong. Does the contractor's insurance cover even those trades that were done by the guys who weren't registered? Or can the insurance company say that they aren't liable as that particular part of the work was done by guys working illegally?

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Ernie, that is a very common scam on large building projects in France where a major contractor, or rather his agent, uses black market (often of North African or Eastern European origin) labour. I don't know if the guarantee insurance implications have ever been tested in the courts, but a lot of activity by the enforcement agencies, URSSAF and the gendarmes is expended in looking for such black workers. It is a far bigger problem than a few unregistered English tradesmen, though the officials are of course aware of that problem too.

I suspect that the insurers would dispute the claim under the circumstances you describe, which would make whover employed the illegal subcontractors liable. But that's just my own opinion, there may be other factors to take into consideration.

The situation can get further confused under European labour regulations where it is possible to legally employ subcontractors from other European countries, though this loophole apparently doesn't work for smaller businesses.

One more to add to Qullian's list - only work done by businesses that are properly and fully registered in France can be taken into account for reducing any French capital gains tax liability.

As far as the ethics of accepting advertisements without SIRET numbers goes, this is a minefield, and is itself of doubtful legality, particularly for publications produced outside France (it effectively introduces an 'unfair competition' element which could be challenged either way under EU law if anybody was prepared to do so - as possibly could the French restrictions on only French-registered trades. It would be very interesting to get an opinion from a properly-qualified expert in European law). Most people now know, or soon learn, how to check SIRET numbers so it is in the advertiser's interest to show registration details when they exist. The implication is by default - 'no registration quoted equals dodgy business'.

Magazines like Living France don't wish to dictate to their readers about which businesses they should or should not use. We would much rather people made up their own minds, armed with the facts. Anybody who visits this forum cannot fail to be aware of these facts.

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Ernie, in your situation the responsibility (including insurance) rests with the contractor that billed you for the work. If all works were invoiced by the main contractor and he paid his subbies then the responsibilty rest with him. It would be in the contractors own interest to ensure that his subbies were registered and insured, as he would need invoices from them to offset against his profit (unless you were paying cash for all or some of the work).

This is a very difficult situation for those building for the British in France. The system is set up such that each Artisan has only one or two trades. On a French site the Macon may be appointed main contractor (if this was the main element of the works), he may also arrange for other trades to quote for their element but they would quote directly to the client and if the quote was accepted then they would bill the client directly.  Many British clients wish to have the works carried out in their absence and, as they would in the UK, expect to appoint a main contractor (single point of contact) who will either have a team of skilled employees ( which would be impossibly expensive from a social charges point of view) or will employ sub-contractors as required who would be registered and insured in their own right, but even so the main contractor has to be insured for all the trades for which he invoices his clients.

There are a few French builders who employ skilled men but pay them less than 10 euros an hour as social charges virtually double this. With the minimum wage at 8 something this doesn't provide much scope. Someone I know is a macon with 10 years experience and works as a 'chef de chantier' for a local builder takes home 1250 Euros a month. I 'employ' a number of very skilled registered British tradesmen who are paid more but pay their own charges as they are all micro entreprises. At the end of the day, I still have to be competitive on price with French builders which means my sub-contractors earn much less than they would in the UK. 

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Sorry Will but I have to disagree with some of your points.

"As far as the ethics of accepting advertisements without SIRET numbers goes, this is a minefield, and is itself of doubtful legality, particularly for publications produced outside France (it effectively introduces an 'unfair competition' element which could be challenged either way under EU law if anybody was prepared to do so - as possibly could the French restrictions on only French registered trades. It would be very interesting to get an opinion from a properly qualified expert in European law). Most people now know, or soon learn, how to check SIRET numbers so it is in the advertiser's interest to show registration details when they exist. The implication is by default - 'no registration quoted equals dodgy business'."

I can't really comment on the legality of printing or not printing SIRET numbers although I have noted that in my local French paper all advertisements for people or enterprises offering to carry out work have their SIRET number printed at the bottom of each ad.

It could also be deemed that by accepting advertisements without SIRET numbers or by not printing a disclaimer or warning about employing people/enterprises that are not registered in France the magazine is acting irresponsibly or at worst accepting money for a advertisement which could be seen as illegal. I also think the magazine is leaving it self open to possible litigation should somebody employ a person/enterprise and incur costs due to them not being registered. Perhaps they could try and claim the extra CGT tax that they paid by using somebody that they saw advertised in LF?

"Magazines like Living France don't wish to dictate to their readers about which businesses they should or should not use. We would much rather people made up their own minds, armed with the facts. Anybody who visits this forum cannot fail to be aware of these facts."

No but neither should they entice advertisements from people carrying out illegal work practices. Not all LF readers are members of this forum, not all may have recieved the particular copy that warns people about getting unregistered people or enterprises to work on their houses. They do have a responciblity to ensure people are aware of the pitfalls of employing such people. This is why I feel they should always precede the advertising section with a statement about the pitfalls of employing such people and by doing so do not have to reject those that do not possess a SIRET number. A simple statement such as "It is illegal to employ none registered artisans in France, you should always ask to see their registration papers and insurance documents before employing them".

To be honest is was some time before I was fully aware of the pitfalls of employing unregistered and 'black' workers. I have to say that I have only ever done it once. I employed a cleaner for my B&B. She slipped coming down the stairs carrying a cleaner. Fortunately no harm was done but it made me realise what could have happened if she had hurt herself. I have never employed a person on the black since.

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Two practical points - frankly if I was working illegally in France would I really want to actually advertise the fact ???

Secondly you are virtually asking each member of staff in the tele sales department to become a lawyer. What happens when a would be advertiser says that they are registered in England - for whatever reason, what number do you ask for then ? Or that they are waiting for their Siret number to come through (and I believe that it is quite legal to advertise a certain time before you actually get your number)

OK - publish a disclaimer - but lets face it - how often does the average person read the small print, or even the big print if its 'boring' ?

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[quote]Two practical points - frankly if I was working illegally in France would I really want to actually advertise the fact ???Secondly you are virtually asking each member of staff in the tele sales depar...[/quote]

Exactly you wouldn't advertise so it gets rid of the cowboys.

If they are an English company working in the UK then that is not a problem as the laws are different there. Working is France is a different matter. All that would be required is that they would get the advertiser to fax their certificate or there acceptance letter from the Chambres de Metiers, very simple, no fax no advert. I never said or implied that the sales staff became lawyers.

I was not asking for a disclaimer, I was asking that people be warned against the possible effects of using an unregistered artisan. To have both systems in place would be even better. Personally I would prefer no SIRET no advert if based in France, keeps it simple. Others do it so why can't LF.

I was under the impression that it was LF's responsibility to look after their readers interests.

I am sorry to disagree but I think somebody has to take a stand against these unscrupulous people operating in France making a quick 'buck' through the ignorance of others. This is a golden opportunity for LF to take the moral high ground and protect its readers and in doing so lead the way. By doing this they would in my book and probably in others set themselves above their competition. Is this a magazine that puts profit before its readers? Perhaps somebody can enlighten me and the rest of the forum members who read this thread.

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I don't want to appear thick, but do you receive a Siret No when you register a "business" or when you register as "an Artisan".  Husband currently employed by building company here in France.  Will be starting own business in the next year hopefully.  Would like to start advertising fairly soon to test the waters.  I know we can't advertise until he has his Siret No. 

Thanks,

 

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>>Exactly you wouldn't advertise so it gets rid of the cowboys.<<<

If thats the case there wouldn't be a problem !

>>If they are an English company working in the UK then that is not a problem as the laws are different there.<<

And LF work under UK law - if you are an advertiser wanting to get around the regulations you would just lie - after all you are already working illegally.

>>> Working is France is a different matter. All that would be required is that they would get the advertiser to fax their certificate or there acceptance letter from the Chambres de Metiers, very simple, no fax no advert. I never said or implied that the sales staff became lawyers.<<

I was not asking for a disclaimer, I was asking that people be warned against the possible effects of using an unregistered artisan. To have both systems in place would be even better. Personally I would prefer no SIRET no advert if based in France, keeps it simple. Others do it so why can't LF.<<<

Which UK publisher does it ?

>>I was under the impression that it was LF's responsibility to look after their readers interests.<<<

No - its the readers responsibility to look after themselves, by all means give them as much help as possible, but at the end of the day the responsibility is with the individual.

>>>I am sorry to disagree but I think somebody has to take a stand against these unscrupulous people operating in France <<<

Someone DOES, the French taxman when he catches them - do you feel strongly enough to dob in the ones YOU know about ?

>>making a quick 'buck' through the ignorance of others. This is a golden opportunity for LF to take the moral high ground and protect its readers and in doing so lead the way. By doing this they would in my book and probably in others set themselves above their competition. Is this a magazine that puts profit before its readers? Perhaps somebody can enlighten me and the rest of the forum members who read this thread.<<<

LF is part of Archant who are a COMMERCIAL organisation - not nannies

Considering that the main employer of illegal workers is (of course) the French, its rather like spitting in the wind to try to regulate a few through a publisher.

If people have got the gumption to make the move to France then surely you should allow them the judgement as to who they employ.

Its a great idea in theory Chris, I'd love it if LF, FPN and France all took that stand - but do I think they will ? Not holding my breath

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I shall probally get hung for this... I advertised for 4 months before I registered in order to be sure of a good client base with which to launch my entreprise.

I was totally aware of it's legality but I thought 'FECK EM' Stupid socialist co-operative paperpushing system... it defies all logic not to measure the markets potential by doing such. Sure the C.C.I supply any amount of information and statistics but advertising is the only certain way to find clients and to achieve a flying start...do they want me to succede or not..?

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La Doretie - He should in my opinion wait untill he gets his SIRET, applying does not mean he will get accepted but then you are not often refused.

He can advertise in any of the Archant group of magazines about France, they will only be to happy to take his money or so it would seem by Gays comments, no questions asked. .

Gay - So this is the official line of Archant, sod the readers sell the mags and reap the profits. In fact while we are at it encourage people working illegaly in France to advertise with them and rip people off. Mind you I do agree with you that it's not just the English who work on the black and are unregistered, in fact I said this on my first post. It's just that not many French people advertise in these mags or is it that they think it's the same rules as in France and they can't because they have no SIRET number.

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Chris - As you feel so strongly about this matter I suggest you take it up with Archant, which publishes both Living France and French Property News, which contains a rather larger proportion of the type of advertisement to which you object. Senior management or the legal department might just be receptive to your ideas.

We aren't privy to Archant's official line, I for one have to rely on what I have discussed with certain of its employees and my own experience.

Being involved in magazine publishing myself I know that having to check and double check details of each advertisement submitted and get back to the advertiser to sort out any queries would involve at least doubling or trebling the advertising staff - that brings the problem of recruiting intelligent advertising sales staff that could do this or have the knowledge to be trained to know all the ins and outs of French business registration (and understand French language sufficiently to translate the SIRET detals), then determine a suitable remuneration package that ensures they sell enough valid advertisements to meet financial targets while still protecting against invalid registrations coming through... They don't have to be lawyers, but being able to interpret French documentation needs more knowledge than an existing classified salesperson may have. It also adds to the time scale, so advertisement deadlines would have to be weeks or months ahead of publication date. 'Commercial considerations' are not simply a matter of accepting advertisements from any source just to get in the money.

Then... What about the businesses that are registered, but do other work for which they may not be registered, or those that are legally registered but don't bother with assurance decennielle or proper paperwork or any of the other requirements? How does a classified ad sales person decide whether a registration for, say, 'maintenance of properties' qualifies a tradesman to replace a roof or to keep an eye on holiday homes, including a bit of cleaning and gardening?

Neither is it a case of 'sod the readers'. From what I know about the British in France there is a very high proportion of them who just want something done on the cheap, preferably for cash; who couldn't give a toss about whether the work is done according to French law or not. They still read FPN and the like, so just because we disagree with their methods does that entitle us to the moral high ground?

Believe me, I agree with Chris in principle but, like Gay, I am trying to be practical about this.

A possible answer, as implied by Chris above, is for every classified advertising page to carry a notice that before employing any business in France, clients should check that the business is properly registered and insured to carry out the work it is being employed to do. That would certainly discourage the cowboys without involving the publishers in activities outside their field.

If this forum is to take a stand against advertisements that do not comply with French requirements then we will have to, for example, insist on tattoo or microchip numbers and certain other details appearing in any request for rehoming of pets.

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"Believe me, I agree with Chris in principle but I am trying to be practical about this."

Thanks

"A possible answer is for every classified advertising page to carry a notice that before employing any business in France, clients should check that the business is properly registered and insured to carry out the work it is being employed to do."

That is exactly what I would like to see. It's not LF's job to ensure that all people employ registered and insured artisans but they should make people aware of the perils of doing so. A simple statement, something along the lines of the one I mentioned (which it would seem we are thinking along the same lines) in my second post would suffice. That would mean little or know extra work for the ads department but leave it up to people to make their own discission.

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"I would prefer no SIRET no advert if based in France, keeps it simple. Others do it so why can't LF."

Which others? And how do they get round the problems? What about those who may have a business based in other countries but are operating in France?

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Ty Korrigan

I dont blame you one bit   everyone has a choice if they answer an advert with or without a number.  but some people on these forums want try to control the way everyone does things .We all know the pitfalls of siret numbers so why do they keep harping on about it  

The system here is very hard for small businesses and how would you know whether or not a business is going to get a big enough customer base to meet all the strict financial burdens that apply is this country 

I would think that most builders (they will never admit it on here) start on the black  and when they get their siret numbers eventually, they become the biggest vocal condemers of those without siret numbers

 

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[quote]Ty Korrigan I dont blame you one bit everyone has a choice if they answer an advert with or without a number. but some people on these forums want try to control the way everyone does things .We...[/quote]

Do we all know the pitfalls? I don't see why we should and we all have to start somewhere, and for many, LF magazine or website might well be a starting point. If "we all know" everything, nobody would be asking any questions on the forum.
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[quote]"I would prefer no SIRET no advert if based in France , keeps it simple. Others do it so why can't LF." Which others? And how do they get round the problems? What about those wh[/quote]

I asnswered that a while back but to repeat many of the French and English language publications I have seen in France.
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