Jump to content

On the black or not.


Pun
 Share

Recommended Posts

Ive  had a large area in the garden dug out for a pool, I employed a legal company to do all the work from start to finish much against one or two friends idea's.

I was told I was mad, wasting money, you could have done the job by so and so for half the cost under the table and so on and so on.

The first day the pool arrived, and was lifted off the trailer by a crane and inspite of only having 8 farms in a six mile area (two are empty and for sale)

the fence around our land was full of locals all looking at the pool being  layed on the garden, No problem so far, then the digger arrived up the bank of the garden like some Army vehicle to do the job,

No problem so far, the first dig down and removal of one full bucket was cheered by all our french friends, No problem so far,

Then the driver full of pride took a second dig?? Yes you've got it, we had a huge burst of water, 30 feet up, and a second cheer and in no time at all a natural pool we didnt ask for.

Two hour's later the water for all the area was off "no cheering could be heard now" and some 3 hours after the free entertainment , a new pipe was fitted and everyone went to bed happy knowing they'd have water in the morning as norm.

The point Im making is this if it would have been done on the black (inspite of a local  plan of the pipe laying system) we would have been in a hell of a mess.

So Im pleased very pleased I didnt employ a cowboy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, not to mention drawing attention to yourself and any of your workers.  An article in La Montagne newspaper early in December stated that two Brits were "in the dock" in Gueret for employing their compatriates to renovate their house "on the black", don't know what the outcome is.

We have also had the gendarmes here before Christmas, advising us in a round about way to make sure that we always get invoices for any purchases or services "for your own benefit" should something go wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've had similar comments made to me as we near the end of our rennovation and other Brits have seen it.  "Oh so and so would have done that for a third of the price"  "what did you pay a French company all that for?   I'd have done it for much less".  However,  we both felt absolutely confident that if any snoops were to report us (not sure I trust our Postie that much) we would have a clear conscience that we have done it all legally.  If the roof collapses we have a ten year guarantee from the roofer, if the first floor collapses we have a guarantee from the carpenter etc etc.  We've done all the "non-structural" stuff ourselves and have paid a couple of friends to give us a hand on occasion but I don't think it's worth the risk paying those on the black to do major works for you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi  COCO,

Nice to see your still around, We've not spoken for a year or two, I do agree ref the remarks from people about "oh you could have got joe soap to do that for a fraction of the price, and as Ive said befor so many people come to buy buildings here in france and back in the u.k. they didnt manage to change a light bulb but having arrived here can now do every thing from electric/ fast brick work "no need for footings" to roof work "oh Ive a pile of slates over".

Like you coco, Ive no fear ref the work done and who done it, thats not to say Ive not learnt and done things myself but the like of this last upset (the pool and free lake saga) was a time I was glad I'd employed the right people and checked the insurance details and that they had the reg, number etc.

I still at times have to remind myself why we came to live in france when the work people say they will turn up and dont or I think christ they''re taking a long time doing this or that but as Im sure you and yours have got to the stage when all the serious big stuff is now done and you dont have to have half these work people at your  home again ?? you like us think

thank god thats over.

nice talking to you have a wonderfull 2007.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with having the right artisans to do the job ... insurance guarantees etc ....but ....can sombody explain where this attitude of " I will do it when I feel like it  " comes from .....why do these guys NOT want to earn  good living. I know of examples where guys do a big job then on payment  feel they dont have to work for a week or two ....The guy  is only concerned about earning enough to pay for his food each week ....I am sure he is a very happy man ......but ....tough if you are waiting for him to give you an estimate to put your under floor heating system in . My son in law is a GORGI registered heating engineer ....I know how hard he works in the UK  and how fast he works .....he earns good money.....but when one job is finished ,,he is straight off to the next one ,, not getting out the fishing tackle .   
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frederick,

I think you have answered your own question with the phrase "I am sure he is a happy man" There are some who live to work and some who work to live. The difference being life's balance. Perhaps the guys you mention believe that they ARE earning a good living. Yes, its tough if you are waiting for them to do a job for you but thats life. [:)]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frederick,

If you want to employ someone with the attitude of a salaried worker in the UK then employ a French salaried worker. Whilst I'm not saying that there aren't many ex-pats that are working as they always have there's probably more that, as powerdesal says, moved here for a better balance.

Personally I left a well paid career in the UK and am looking to pull together enough money to finance by life here not to pay for the holidays, cars etc. I used to chase and therefore have a more relaxed attitude to work, I'll work hard and long hours for any job I take on but once completed I may have a few days fishing before I look for the next. I didn't come here to work 9-5 five days a week, if I wanted that I'd have stayed in England.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="westland"]

We have also had the gendarmes here before Christmas, advising us in a round about way to make sure that we always get invoices for any purchases or services "for your own benefit" should something go wrong.

[/quote]

On a similar vein, last year, or maybe the year before, the Police arrived in force at '3M's' in Ruffec. They closed the gates and checked everyone who was inside as to what they were buying, who was it for etc, etc. Looking for 'black workers'. What the outcome was I don't know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a somewhat ambivalent view on all this "working on the black" stuff and although I'm registered myself I don't really find it a big issue, it suits me to be registered as it puts me in the system and allows me to sleep well, but I can't say that I like the way that the State spends my money, but that's another issue, and if there's some money of the books I guess most people find that acceptable to some degree.

Insurance? Yeah well, see what happens and what you have to go through when you try to claim and get someone back to rectify a fault, I know of people that have been waiting 3 years and the jobs still not sorted.

I also fall into the category of person who wants a life and is happy with a modest living, so being self employed I work for myself and do work for other people and make this quite clear, if they want me to do the work and get a proper job then my terms are as important as the clients and I always explain this, if we can agree, fine, if not then they find someone else, I'm not a slave and it's fair to say that given the chance many people would have you working 24 hours a day and 7 days a week on their project because that's their self interest.

Gary, the 3m saga at Ruffec goes on and there are many stories and situations, not just one or two.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi  Chris,

A happy new year to you and yours,

I was reading the ex-pats paper "French news" (august edition) and I came across a piece about Limousin Id missed when I bought the paper in august and it was about verious english people appearing in court for not having any reg/ number at all, one was acting as an estate agent, one a solicitor, one a roofer.

all these people are taking good money from the people hiring them and paying no tax ect, I ran my own company pre early retirement and found the same thing time and time again and it was this, It's o.k. to take from the comany thats not theft but if anything goes wrong with the person working for you it soons became a thing of  "what about my rights, are you insured ?"If  I'd not had all the Insurance ect and the attitude I'll take that chance and couldnt meet any claimes ect, Im sure I wouldnt be here today enjoying the rest of my life in peace and not scared to look over my shoulder.

I dont think it will be many more years until the french way of doing work ( ie taking for ever once they have the contract,) will change, just give the Polish people and turks ect a chance to get started in the verious trades they have to offer and the willing to work and please the customer and the french way of work will be in serious trouble,

I was again reading that the lavender in provence has lost a lot of growing space due to the fact that china has produce lavender and is selling it to france at approx 50% cheaper than the provence area can produce it,

So I feel that now more countries are now in the E.E.C it must have a change in the future but we'll see.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is already changing fast in the UK....the printing company my wife retired from last September  has a number of Polish workers and they work hard. There was never a week where a car would not pull up at the door and a Polish worker ask in reception if there was a job going......The end result is where some guys were not keen to work overtime to get a job out .....especially on a Saturday durng the football season ...... the work is now offered to the Poles who do not refuse.... Also machine opperators who are Polish are happy to do the job for £6 an hour ......not 11 as was being paid last year  to two guys before they retired !   (that could cause problems in the workplace one day  )

Southampton town bus company could not get people to train as bus drivers for £26,000 a year as shown on the  "Drivers Wanted " adverts on the busses.........they have them now already trained from Poland over 30 ......The Polish people  I have come in contact with ....mostly in the shops and cafe's  I have found to be very helpful. charming  people who fit in very well .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi  Frederick,

Ive read your reply and I feel its only a matter of time and the customer who wants a job doing in good time and a good job will give the work to the person who gives the best service no matter polish english or  who ever.

I have a plan and its a year long one to have this gite ready, and I do mean ready both inside outside and all the legal side,

now to do this work I have to work job for  job, as one project finishes the next one starts and if I employ someone to do a job and then try to book the next person to continue the train of work and the very first person decides to not keep to any time of finishing scale, how the hell do you go on and have any idea of a completeion date?

Hence this year long plan, why a year? because of the time gaps between the jobs   I myself cannot do,

If I could rely on the times I was given when I asked for quotes ect by the company I was asking, I'd do this project in 6 month no problem.

Thanks for your reply it was very interesting reading.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Pun"]

how the hell do you go on and have any idea of a completeion date?

[/quote]In two words, "you don't."  If an artisan is good here, he is busy. 

 My neighbours were saying last week (they are French and are in the middle of a similar project to ours) that their two boys only want to get careers involving computers these days and that is true for so many of their fellow pupils at their schools.  The country is crying out for good artisans in spite of the generally high unemployment rates but young lads and lasses don't want those careers.  The UK is probably the same, and for all I know many other parts of Europe, the US, who knows?.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pun

How far into the year job are you? And are you still confident of completing in that timescale?

If you are perhaps still at the planning stage then your doubling of the projected time would seem sensible but my advice would be to double again!

I would dearly love to hear of someone (other than in TV land!) who actually manages to achieve somewhere near their planned objectives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mini straw-pole.  We are already 1 year behind and still not finished.  Progress on the interior upstairs has once again ground to a halt while I wait for my electrician/plumber to come back.

A local English lady has been here 15 months and the builders who promised to be here last spring have not even started (French company run by an Englishman with French workers).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="J.R."]

I would dearly love to hear of someone (other than in TV land!) who actually manages to achieve somewhere near their planned objectives.

[/quote]

Me! , Not gloating as I had to earn him. 

I spent almost a year turning him into a friend.  He is highly in demand  (this is an area of non-stop construction projects) and very good, so I pulled out the friendship card..  This involved even studying up on Iggy Pop – no joke – because Iggy is his hero and I even invited him out with me and my friends.  Luckily he is a charming and interesting person.  

I did not have the renovations that most people on here have to contend with, as far too wimpish to have bought a ruin or a semi ruin. In 5 weeks, however, he completely overhauled, among other things, a kitchen and a bathroom from top to bottom and installed new toilets including the relevant plumbing that were non-existent. Trust me, not an easy feat in a 19th city centre building with restricted access to relevant parts of the building.  

I would also point out that he would have finished sooner but we wasted over a week on Castorama damaged/forgotten items issues. 

He was fantastic!. He worked from the moment he arrived to the moment he left and even through lunch at times. I also could have got the dodgy lot to do certain things much sooner but I felt it was important to wait for the right person. 

So, a happy renovation story but very much earned via tons of patience. 

I fully sympathise with those waiting endlessly.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi  Cooperlola,

Nice to hear from you , I agree we've only got one near neighbour and just pre christmas she was all excited her bath was being changed for a power shower,

(she'd seen our shower, not a power shower) anyway later that evening I was taking the wife for a walk "and the dog" when our neighbour came out all tears,

she'd ordered this shower in august and all the work was to be done via the builders she'd bought the complete shower ect from, well they'd turned her water off for the day including the two hour break and at 5pm told her they'd gone as far as they can and it was now up to the tiler to tile the wall and he was 3 weeks behind, so he'd see her sometime in the new year,

she's no bath no shower and the bathroom looks a mess, she's using ours at the minute but it just goes to show even french have this same problem.

I think its called tough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LDG2 I think you have to count the year's investment in turning you guy into a mate, into the equation![:D]  To be fair, once my builders had turned up to do the roof (exactly 12 months after I had accepted their devis) they worked non-stop until finished, with just one or two (very) minor snagging bits which came to light later. I have known my electrician since long before we moved here (French) but he still does everything in strict order so getting him back on site is not always immediate in spite of our friendship.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi  J.R.,

We bought the place or should I say we signed for the place last september, and started the manual work then, ie making the place winter proof, centrial heating, and little things you dont find until you've signed, like gaps under badly fitted windows and smells in the bath room every now and again (no funny remarks here please)

I mean we'd be outside all day repairing this and that and then come inside and then after maybe an hour "the smell" the dreaded pong, I found after going down every avenue just what it was, the soil pipe at the rear of the loo was fitted with the wrong fitting and secured with scotch tape,

I can tell you when I removed this pipe the first smell was nothing, infact it could be compered with roses, It just knocked you out how anyone could do a job like that really makes you think. and it was simple to buy the correct fitting, but it led on to the bath/shower/ sinks, all crap workmanship all needed sorting all taking untimed time, but at least now I know they're all done properly.

After the centrial heating was fitted (1 week over the said time due to (a) bank holiday (2) day off for flu jabs (3) just didnt turn up, (4)did turn up but had to finish early, christ only knows why.

The outside area was just like a forest and we had to make a plan ref parking , clearing the drive so you could drive up it, supplying and fitting secure gates so that the customers children are in our space and not wondering down miles of country lanes and also to keep the deer out at night.

We needed lighting and sockets in the barn/stable/workshop. and I had to make barn doors ect.

To day as I speake the pool people have arrived after going away for christmas 4 days pre christmas for the dinner time 2 hour break and not seen until now

I did go into the pool shop on saturday and have a customer satisfaction talk and let the boss man know how many brits could be seen watching the pool be removed if he didnt get his finger out,

it worked as I said they are here today. and doing the edging and as soon as the electrics are fitted to the house supply and the pumps working it will be goodbye to them. I wouldnt mind the slow bit if they'd be honest and let you know whats going on.

I have a patio to lay and a small wall around it in april or when the weather turns, Ive fitted the awning in september so thats a job done.(by the way if anyone wants to get an awning they are good value here in france, and very simple to fit, mine has 2 wall mountings thats it, job done, and very safe.

the 1.3/4 acre of grass seed to sow, and with a bit of luck and the help from above it should look nicer than the soil look Ive got just now, I really do want the lawn to knit well befor the customers get here, Ive bought a horse topiary and a few bear shapes but they look lost in just the soil.

the pool area patio, this is a good size area.and will be paved around the complete pool to allowe for seating, loungers and Ive lighting to put on this area.

the borders have bushes/plants/and egding to be sorted..and a what we call view area (a place for the adult to sit and see the complete garden area and see the childs play area and have a bit of peace at the same time.

A kiddies safe area to make, sand pit, climbing frame etc.

the bar B.Q. to errect.

Inside the complete house redecorated, +chimney swept.+one more smoke alarm to be fitted in the childs bedroom,

The complete outside repainted.

and the Inter net, sorted+ adds in the verious places.

And then we,ve friends who are going to give it all a trial and an honest "what they think" the goods and any bads..

so as you can see we,ve given it a good spread out and this next october it will be ready for next years bookings starting from easter and up until sept 08.

after that it will be rest time and then re-decorate and that next spring we 're having a hot tub put in as an added attraction,

so if this ends up pear shape it wont be for lack of interest or trying

I do agree what you say ref the t.v. and the programs, I'd like to see the mr, average doing it from day one the buying, the problems but once a camera appears people change they 're not being honest, if we could walk into some of the peoples offices who are letting us down with a camera with b.b.c on it

"Well " you know all these companys would be on the ball, wouldnt they?. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To use people working on the black or to pay cash in hand is often the only way to get any labour, especially for basic labouring. When re-furbing a furniture superstore in Dorset a few years back,I needed 6 lads to keep the site clean/help unload and make tea/run errands.  I phoned the local job centre and asked if £200 for 40hrs for about 6weeks,  would  this payment be alright for this and did they have anyone available? The reply was that it won't pay them to sign off as it takes 4-6 weeks to get them back on their dole payments.You're better off paying someone cash!!!

When we used to run sites all over UK ,we used to put a blackboard outside with a notice, " Gophers wanted and the day rate" and never had any trouble anywhere. I found it cheaper than letting everybody wander off to Mac'D's or the bun/fag/paper shop and leave their work for 1/2 an hour at a time. I did get a few surprises, 2 lads  who just had to sweep-up and make tea, spent the whole time on rollerblades!!

Apart from the risk side of using unregistered labour in France you can come a cropper when you sell. If the house is not your main residence, any work done,expenditure, will not count against CGT unless you have the correct receipts.

Regards.A little older now but none the wiser.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...