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unpaid invoice


gert
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hi, has anyone got any advice about how to deal with an unpaid invoice for sub-contract work to an english run building firm?

apart from going back to the site to undo the work of course is there a legal route i could take here without it costing too much?

unfortunately there is no signed devis for the job, just an invoice sent, as the work has been on a regular basis over the last year.

it`s not a great deal of money but more the principal, i`d like to warn others to stay away from this firm but i am not sure naming and shaming is allowed is it?

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I've read a similar complaint on a non-France related forum.  The poster in this case did indeed turn up at the said property with a couple of mates and say "Right, we're here to take all our materials back" and began to make as though they were going to remove the person's bathroom fittings there and then.  A rubber-free cheque turned up within minutes!
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[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Ford Anglia"]

[quote user="Russethouse"]You are quite right gert, Naming and shaming is forbidden here.[/quote]

Useful, helpful response there.

[/quote]I don't know what that means, FA.  R/H's role here is to keep posts within the forum rules, she is doing her job.[/quote]

OK, I suppose so, it just seemed unhelpful. He sort of KNEW he couldn't name and shame, so he didn't. RH's response was sort of ott. I'll say no more, otherwise I'll get this thread pulled like so many others. Sorry.

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I guess she thought maybe a pre-emptive strike was in order just in case, but I take your point.  I just feel a bit of sympathy for the mods at times as they take a lot of flack for doing a job which it seems to me has few rewards, apart from a few copies of Living France.  But as you say, enough said, back to topic![:)]
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BIG MAC's advice to register a legal charge against the property was my nightmare during our build/renovation. If you do that you don't punish the builder who sub-contracted the work, but the client who in the end will have to pay twice.
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Registering a charge or lein against property here is V difficult - and, in this case, your claim isn't against the property owner, it is against your employer.

Welcome to the world of cowboy brit builders. Face the fact that, in my experience, you ain't gonna get your money without getting "physical" (with someone/thing).

Were they even legal? If not, you could try the Gendarmes, but you may end up in the do-do yourself. Dare I ask, are you legal?

 

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If you were legally employed with a proper contract /devis accepted etc then you could go to the Prud'Hommes for a tribunal but it may take a few months to organise. Every french employer lives in dread of being summoned there because they rarely take the side of the employer. A huissier would be expensive, probably more than the amount being sought. If you have no fear of any reprisal or investigation by the authorities into your working practices I would report this lot to URSSAF and to the TVA people, they move very fast where unpaid money is due. I really cannot reitterate enough how in France, you must cover yourself with proper contracts, devis and get them signed etc, without any written proof you never have a leg to stand on.
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[quote user="Mister Fluffy"]How fair is that?
[/quote]

Pretty fair.

If a legal debt is due, in my book moneys should not be unreasonably witheld does home owner care too much who he pays so long as he can prove that he has paid and th process is auditable. Our non paying builder if he is not legitimate is likely to dissappear like snow of a dyke after trousering the cash, if he is legitimate he will argue the toss and explain why he disagrees with the account either way the discourse is up and running.

I quite like the subtle frank exchange of opinion of the pugilistic variety but couldn't possibly advocate it here! lol

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[quote user="Monika"]BIG MAC's advice to register a legal charge against the property was my nightmare during our build/renovation. If you do that you don't punish the builder who sub-contracted the work, but the client who in the end will have to pay twice.[/quote]

The Client has a duty of care to those that they employ that is why "pay when paid" is illegal in the UK building industry. It is alsowhy Client duties are enshrined in the Construction Design and Management Regulations 1994 to be amended 2007. The days of the Client pleading "I didn't know" are long gone here. I would imagine there will be some kind of equivalent legislation in France.

Perfectly reasnable to ask a contractor to be "Open book" and show payments made to sub-contractors.

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You are quite right Big Mac:

We were adviced to have a meeting with the Project Manager/Builder and all the sub contracted Artisans on the Building Site and ask each individual Artisan if they have been paid, so as to safeguard ourselves. But what a logistic nightmare to get them all there and of course in the end we never did as adviced. We also felt that it would be very embarrassing for the Project Manager to have so little trust in him. I wonder if anybody has ever done this?  

 

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[quote user="BIG MAC"]My thinking being that if works were not complete the threat of having a legal charge against property may get the owner (If not the possibly dodgy UK Builder) to contra charge the possibly dodgy UK builders outstanding account.[/quote]

No way, Pedro. I cannot deduct money from the main builder to pay a sub contractor without prior agreement. If I were stupid enough to do so I run the risk of paying twice. And as for a charge against my property for money I do not owe, forget it.

John

not

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To the contrary (In the UK), you must however advise them beforehand that you require a full statement of accounts detailing sub contract payments made detailing why or if any have not been paid. You can if not satisfied that payments have been rightfully witheld advise the main contractor that you have had an application for payment made by the sub-contractor and that it is in your opinion as the employer rightfully due. You could then give him say 14 days to settle his account as he should. Should he fail to do so you will pay the sub-contractor direct and will require him to please omit the elements of work carried out by the sub contractor from the bill of quants, also adjust the main contract sum accordingly.

 

Then again you might not

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I agree, once again R/H. is saying just what is being said, and resulting in winding up the person who's gone to the trouble of informing members of his/her experience, (not needed)

maybe to be heard more is better than being seen.

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