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Re: Cowboy British Builders Part Two


Chezstevens
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With 14 years experience of paying for renovation in France I can only say that I have had no serious problems with French Artisans.  One french artisan damaged our fireplace by accident and there was no discussion - he has just replaced it with freshly cut stone ... looks better than before.

I have heard, and seen, countless occasions of poor building practice by non-french workers but , perhaps by luck, never had a problem with french artisans.  Judging by other peoples experiences then paying the extra works out in the end. 

So ... if you are paying the same money why not use somebody who has always been taught, and used, sympathetic building techniques in keeping with your area.  Sorry Brits but I have seen too many cowboys -  yip, yip, yee a.

 

To temper my personal observations - if you have received recommendations for a builder, regardless of nationality, then perhaps that is the best route.

 

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I wish there was a website for high recommendations for all sorts of artisans.  There must be some sort of law against it or the threat of a law suit!.. 

My French roofer was paid a deposit (never again) in June and he promised faithfully to start in October, but we did not put the year.  Silly us.  After numerous failed promises we are now starting to think of the usual recorded delivery letter process.  We have just finished some major works, so haven't pushed for a while just glad he wasn't around to get in the way, but now we need him to start.

There is a local English builder in our area who never turns up when he promises, turns jobs down at the last minute etc. 

So again I have to agree, if they are good at their job and reliable, I am not fusy who or what they are.  Legal of course!..

 

  

 

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I had terrible frustrations with timescales on our roof.  Eventually it got done, the job is excellent - not least because of the sympathetic approach to the building and materials and the traditional style of the finish.  However, I had just the same problem in the UK.  You get good people - they are always busy.  The phone is your best weapon.  I was very laid back to start with and let the job drift much longer than I should have done.  When I got to the stage which you are at, I phoned every day and sent him texts as often as I could.  After 3 or 4 weeks of this he gave up and came. 

Once on site they worked really hard and never left except during the holidays - a contrast to my UK guy who would turn up for 3 days then disappear for weeks on end - I think he worked on the "just enough to keep her happy" principal, but again he did a really superb job.

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Ahem.  I worked long hours for years to get where I am and now I've retired I'd rather pay a skilled person to do the work than botch it myself.  Is that unreasonable?  I probably don't have 25 years to get my skills to your level, Robin!  Of course I understand the skills involved, or I'd have tried to put a new roof on myself, wouldn't I?
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Bravo. I am married to someone just like you who gets very infuriated now with the UK when he reads about "qualified" carpenters,brickies,sparks,plumbers and so on after just 6 months of some obscure part time training scheme. Seems they all then head to France and are transformed into master craftsmen when they arrive, something my husband had to earn to be recognised and rewarded for many years ago.
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We have been very fortunate. We had a local team of artisans undertake our renovation, we had to wait several months for them but they did an excellent job with very good continuity between trades. We wanted to use locals as we see it as part of being good neighbours. That said a different local team renovated the roof and were nothing like the same standard. The farmer across the road was very dismissive of their work.

We also use a one-man-band English builder for other projects and he is top class. He gets the thumbs-up from our neighbour.

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What you earn does not annoy me neither does what you do for living. Perhaps if we all took your advice and did what you do the world might be a better place. Somehow I doubt it but it's good that you live the dream. Personally I retired after my heart attacks (a complaint I inherited from my mum but not helped by hard work and stress) because I could afford to, done my bit.
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This is all a bit unfair. Heart attacks and strokes etc can happen to ANYONE at ANY age and at ANYTIME regardless of family history or current health fitness, this I have had experience recently within my own family and now a 22 year old female has been admitted opposite my mum with a massive stroke and no previous health problems.

I'm sure everyone works hard in his/her own particular trade and being the OH of a same-minded,hardworking builder here I know where Robin is coming from. Please don't resort to mud slinging,its not worth the upset.

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Some people's talents and skills lie with their hands, some with their heads.  We are all different and the world ticks along because we do not all do the same things, nor want to.  Why is it necessary to belittle and insult those who  are different from oneself?
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I remember a kid at school making a snide comment because another kids father was a dustman. One of our teachers really went in to one and pointed out that all jobs required an element of skill and were a necessity in society including the guy that cleans the public toilet. After all, he pointed out, nobody wants to use a dirty toilet and somebody has to do it.
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[quote user="Quillan"]I remember a kid at school making a snide comment because another kids father was a dustman. One of our teachers really went in to one and pointed out that all jobs required an element of skill and were a necessity in society including the guy that cleans the public toilet. After all, he pointed out, nobody wants to use a dirty toilet and somebody has to do it.[/quote]Good for him.  Mind you, if everybody cleaned the loo when they'd finished with it, nobody would have to do that particular job!
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And I thought he was the normal taxi driver that read the Readers Digest book of DIY on the way over on the ferry [;-)] .

OK hands up those that made a bomb on the money markets please. Lets me off the hook, I was in IT running round the south of England fixing other peoples mistakes but there you go and I earned considerbly more than he did [:)] .

On, shoulder, chip but not in that order comes to mind.

 

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Robin,

I think perhaps that you are doing a lot of people on this forum a disservice.

There are plenty of folks who did not profit from the UK moneymarket boom, there are some of us who lost a considerable amount of hard earned savings in the various "crashes".

I have no problem with your level of earnings, good luck to you, I would like the same but am not envious of your success.

Some of use an "office" and dont necessarily get the high level of earnings, occasionally I actually get to sit down in my office for a few minutes in the day, most of the time I dont - and its bl**dy hot out on site in ambients of 45+, but thats my choice and if, at the end of it all I can retire to France (or anywhere else) and then pay someone to do the physical stuff then its also my choice and my right.

I also served an engineering apprenticeship in the days when they existed and if you want a power station operated or a desalination plant built and operated, give me a call.

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[quote user="Blanche Neige"]

Quillan said

"On, shoulder, chip but not in that order comes to mind."

Too right Quillan ! [;-)]

 

Robin, be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you.[Www]

[/quote]

Actually, reading back through all his posts in this thread I have come to the conclusion that it's a wind up. It has to be as nobody would be that silly. I mean if it were real and after reading all this would you employ him? Nice one though, got me going there for a bit.

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RD's replies reinforce my views on British Builders in France.  He has boasted of £50 per hour rates - I don't mind paying an artisan the devis price (often we are surprised by a reduction), especially as the ones we choose are artisans (with a wealth of experience and recommendations the word implies).  I take exception to Brits that try to increase the facture above the quote - happened in our early days and they were sadly disappointed 

Again I had an artisan, happened to be french, who accidentally damaged our gate. We did not witness the accident, there was no discussion about blame, and the gate was repaired in quick order. 

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RD is not working in France where all work has to be against an agreed 'devis'. English building trade sharp practice is not that common in France, but if you choose a builder who wants to keep it informal, see how it goes etc. then you're the mug. T be honest, there are just as many French chancers trying it on with French clients. Please don't bury your head in the sand whichever side of the channel you live, there is a real world out there. There are plenty of highly skilled British tradesmen around who are trying their best to do a good job for their clients and make an honest living in order to support their families.
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[quote user="LesFlamands"]RD is not working in France where all work has to be against an agreed 'devis'. English building trade sharp practice is not that common in France, but if you choose a builder who wants to keep it informal, see how it goes etc. then you're the mug. T be honest, there are just as many French chancers trying it on with French clients. Please don't bury your head in the sand whichever side of the channel you live, there is a real world out there. There are plenty of highly skilled British tradesmen around who are trying their best to do a good job for their clients and make an honest living in order to support their families.[/quote]

You are off course quite correct although we don't have many where I live. As with all trades in all parts of the world there are good and bad including the indigenous and imigrant. The reason I think it a wind up is because any decent builder I have ever met never says how much money he has earned and for how long he has worked to get it. I know there are one or two on the forum and I have never seen them say anything that I have seen in this thread and they have always given excellent replies, been very helpful and NEVER boasted about what they have or have not done. Basically nice chaps.

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There are plenty of highly skilled British tradesmen around who are trying their best to do a good job for their clients and make an honest living in order to support their families

We are in the Uk and have been 'lucky'. The guys we use are 'family men' and what they want is a decent life for themselves and their kids. This year we have changed our boiler and hot water system and are gradually decorating throughout, mostly with the help of  tradesmen recommendended by the electrician. They have been better than our expectation - one recently told my mother we were 'good' clients - that's great because they deserve every penny INMHO.

I'd love to see RD tell our plumbers they are at the bottom of anything. A rugby scrum, possibly -- nothing else![;-)]

 

 

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Another perspective.

I've always believed that one can create a market by developing skills/products and services that are hard to find and in demand.

Passion, proffessionalism and expertise are the basic requirements of any good artist/artisan, passion for money and status tends to get in the way of real achievement, unique products or services tend to command their own price, it's like the money follows naturally...if money is your thing.

 

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I don't understand why RD posts here if he has no home or interest etc in France and why he has to be so bloody rude to people he's never met?

Did he have his class bound chip installed during his apprenticeship?  At least he's balanced, has chips about class and management on both shoulders.

RD, give it a rest for goodness sake and post the name of your company, want to make sure I never employ such an arrogant moaning bugger like you. 

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"I don't understand why RD posts here if he has no home or interest etc in France"

 

He's obviously a man with  a  mission and isn't going to give up easily, as someone else said earlier he's on here banging the same old drum!

 

Shall we just let him get on with it, I am sure we all have better things to do than fuel the fire.

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Mods Hat ON.

The OP was, we thought, about France. I think the thread will stay as it is of interest to all and people can draw their own conclusions. Other contributions about both French and English builders are quite good and it may help people sort the wheat from the chaff.

Mods Hat OFF.

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