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Be prepared to pay a deposit if you want work done in France


Val_2
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Had the annual meeting with the bank yesterday and they warned us that no one should be taking on work without a deposit of at least 30% up front these days especially the self employed artisans as too many people are taking longer and longer to pay their bills and many are not paying up at all leaving people in debt here.This was one of the big banks by the way.
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Quite agree with you Val but....we had a devi, signed acceptance and paid a 30% deposit with agreement the work would start in May unfortuately the date was not in writing. To date he has never presented the cheque or started the work (when I would expect to pay another 30%), he's a french artisan who I can't contact on the phone, he never returns calls.  As I have signed acceptance of the devi any ideas what I can do??

aj

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Hi

We had the same issue some years back, I took advice and threatened the artisan with legal action to cancel the devis, he turned up two days later, they are working on the fact that you are a job in their pocket so to speak, they can chase other work but yours is always there to fall back on.  I would find someone who can speak french and get them to make the call, it may work wonders!

On the deposit front, I think most brits would expect to pay, it's how things are done in the UK where I came from, no issue as long as the devis and timescales are honoured.

Panda

 

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I have paid a roofer a deposit in June, in good faith with a signed devi to start last october,  His pet slug has died his pet snail, its too wet its too hot.  he assures me the price will not change when he does start....

My french neighbours tells me the french pay the deposit the day they start the work. 

This is how I will employ my artisans in future.

 

 

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It's not all doom and gloom.  We contacted a local builder to quote for a few odd jobs around the house, he came, tackled one there and then and prepared a quote for us.  It arrived a week later than planned, but all looked good, so we contacted him and asked how he wanted to proceed.

 

He simply said, I'll be round next week to start (no signature required, no deposit).  Ok, so he didn't turn up a few times, but he did fit us in here and there when he could.  Only waiting for one part to fix the roller shutter and he'll be back to install that and finish off a window sill.  No a cent has exchanged hands yet, and all in all he's completed all the jobs within 4 weeks, worked like a man posssessed and cleaned up after every job. 

All that's left is the invoice and to see how much it may have drifted from the original quote as there were a few changes along the way.

 

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It is a difficult time to get work done with most artisans having full diaries, some of my contractors are spending a couple of days on my house and then returning the following week.

I am however quite lucky, I have no practicle skills at all and on the recco of the surveyor used the architect as a project manager.

All work is being completed on time and I have paid no advance payments however I am required to make staged payments in line with the % of work completed as per the schedule of works.

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[quote user="somme man"]

It is a difficult time to get work done with most artisans having full diaries, some of my contractors are spending a couple of days on my house and then returning the following week.works.

[/quote]

That is very true in our area.  Work on our house has been rather slow as each of our artisans juggle several jobs.  However, only 1 of the 5 artisans has asked for a deposit before beginning work (and that one is English!).

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Deposit or not, we have had one major plumbing and one major electrical disaster occur on a Sunday here. We called ALL french plumbers and electricians, each time, within a 30 km radius only to hear them all just hang up on us. Even those who advertise their service as being 24/7.  Just because it was Sunday. We no longer employ French workmen as a result. We have found 'backup' in the form of a Dutch fellow who works whenever he is needed, is reliable, and I can recommend him to anyone who lives near Olet. In Dec 2004 we had the local electrician in to give us a quote for work and he said he would be back to start work in a week. He returned exactly a YEAR to the day later (Dec 2005) and expected to start the job there and then. We told him where to walk!.

I will pay a deposit WHEN the work has been started. I agree that self employed artisans should not work for free, but with regards to the laidback attitude of the French, how does the 'employer' know where he stands?. I will pay for work carried out...and they want to be paid before they start...what do you do?.

 

 

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Wen

I accepted a devi (from an artisan who sub-contracts to a French friend) to enduit all of my property, he said he would do the work in May, interestingly on the devi it asked me to specify when I wanted the work done, I indicated May, I also wrotre a covering letter asking him to confirm receiept of the signed devi, to say whethe the work could still be done in May and in any case to give 2 weeks notice of the start date so that I could transfer the money to my French account.

I received no reply, I have left a dozen messages on his phone which he has not responded to, I have also made my friend leave messages which have again been ignored.

May has come and gone, I applied pressure to my friend who returned to me the message " it could be done in September - peut-etre" citing Les vacances, by this time I had lost patience and confidence, my friend said that he would try to get them to improve on this, all I had ever wanted was some communication.

This week an equipe (I believe sub-contracted to the guy) turned up unannounced wanting to start work straight away, I was suspicious because it was pouring with rain and they said that they couldn't work on their other site, I explained that they could commence but that I did not have the 50% accompte (as I had not had advanced warning as agreed) but could draw 400 euros per day from the ATM until the money had been transferred. They phoned the boss man who told them to leave, possibly to find someone who would pay 50% to them to compensate them for not being able to work in these weather conditions? - Who knows?

The next thing was that my friend appeared angrily remonstrating with me for having turned them away.

I should point out that my French is very good and there has been no misunderstanding.

I have again waited in vain today for a roofer, this is the 3rd time that he has been to drink an aperitif, promise to come at the weekend and fail to arrive, I only engaged him after giving up on the local company were paid (with my money by my so called friend!) for work that they didnt do, after many failed appointments they once again promised to come after I sent them a final legal letter accuse de reception, but of course they didnt.

So this new roofer who is the brother of another friend offered to do the small repairs but only if I let him fit 4 veluxes for a very high cash price, after 2 years of frustration I wasnt going to argue, guess what? He did the veluxes in 1.5 hours each but wanted to come back to do the roof repairs, as I said today is the 3rd time that he has promised to come and not.

Editted: The roofer arrived after lunch so I feel very silly now[:D]

After 2 1/2 years I have to accept that this is the way of things around here, what sticks in my throat is the way that there never seems to be any sense of  acknowledgement or regret. So now I will do everything myself even if it is work like the rendering that I am not skilled at or enjoy doing.

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Having read the above, all I can say is thank heavens I have my own very skilled builder on hand for everything that needs to be done because  I think I would drive myself crazy waiting about for "Artisans" to honour me with their presence!

Sometimes being married to a Builder has its advantages.

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You and me both, Framboise. [:D]

We went through hell with our stonemason who took 17 months to complete what he told us was 3 months work but since the major structural work has been complete, it's been down to us. [:D][:D][:D]

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I always ask for a deposit, usually about 10% of the contract value with a more substantial payment upon delivery of material, which is when I commence the installation work

On the majority of my contracts I supply all of the material, once I place and order with a supplier I have an obligation to take the goods or face possible charges in the event of cancellation

I consider the deposit to be some insurance for me in the event the client changes his mind and attempts to cancel the contract

Very few of these problems would arise if clients checked contractors properly and generally sought only those companies on whom they are able to obtain good references from satisfied clients

Le Plombier

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  • 3 weeks later...

All very true of course Le Plombier. If everyone played by the rules what a wonderful world it would be. Problem is that often they do not, hence the stories of waiting for ages to get something done. Friends of mine have regulalrly encountered that but since they insist on using the same builder, and his father before him!, they only have themselves to blame. To be sure he does a good job but as someone else said, he has their job in his pocket and will fit it in when he has nothing better to do.

I take a rather different approach and have never had any problems even though mine is only a holiday home. The secret is to know who is in the know in the village and enlist their support in arranging the work. After all they are there all the time, drink in the same bars and in many cases are related to the builders etc. and they badger them until the job is done. Not only have the jobs been done in good time, and not only have I never been asked for a deposit, but it often takes months to get the bill! Most of my chasing seems to be to pay the bill!

Andy

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  • 2 months later...
We have only recently joined the forum as part of our research towards coming to live in france so please excuse this being some months after the other posts on this topic. Is it just the British who get treated like this or do french artisans mess about their french customers too? I am self employed in the UK with my own business in domestic wall and floor tiling and plastering. Does anyone know what sort of money I could earn assuming that if and when we come over, our french will be good enough. I would want to work in the whole community, not just for expats. At the moment we are thinking of Brittany, not coastal, somewhere reasonably populated. Vannes is on our list of possible places.
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Hoorah!!...re my posting of the 24/5....Guess what, he turned up. Four of them did a very good job on the roof in four days. It just shows that if they are any good, they are busy and you just have to wait for them. At least we will be OK for the winter.He was recommended by a local, our neighbour, and we had seen his work. He came a few days later with his facture and we gave him a cheque there and then even though it hadn't rained and therefore we hadn't been able to check if everything was waterproof . It has now rained and everything is OK.

We have now asked him for a devi for a new fosse and 2 new windows.....I wonder how long we will have to wait, not only for devi but the work.

aj

PS . Forgot to mention, the deposit cheque that we had given him in March he finally presented 1 week before he commenced the work.

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That's great, if they don't bank the deposit cheques months before they commence, unless they are buying the materials straight away. But it's a bit of a cheek to take money when you are not starting the work for ages and then of course there is no incentive for them to come back when they have spent it.

Georgina

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  • 3 weeks later...

I can appreciate the artisan wanting a

deposit. I can also appreciate so many of the "don't pay up

front" warnings. Interestingly, those artisans I have paid a

deposit to are those I really wished I had not bothered with. For

example, plumber wanted a deposit which I paid (after all he had to

order parts, etc.). When his bill came in I was not quick paying it

as it was 3 times the amount we agreed to on the signed devis. So I

had to wait for him to come round to discuss. I made it clear that I

would accept an increase if he could give me a reason (e.g.

unforeseeable problems beyond his control) - but there were none. So

I suggested he think again about his bill and there was scope for

movement but the "ball was in his court".

Funny how the reliable artisans don't

seem to worry about deposits, they just turn-up, do the work, submit

a bill (as agreed) and get paid - easy really. If an artisan winds

you up, does poor work, starts late, expects you to believe all sorts

of crap excuses, etc. it does not surprise me people don't rush to

pay.

I have no problem paying a deposit but

think it should be easier to get the deposit back and cancel the

devis should the work not be started when agreed (it works both ways)

Ian

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  • 3 weeks later...

Val_2

As a lawyer I can quite understand your position but as to the bank's comments 'too many people are taking longer' what exactly does that mean.

From my standpoint when I first came to France then of course I understood the need for a deposit say towards materials but nothing more.  Now being firmly established here I do not expect and do not witness any request for upfront payment.  What does happen however is that the moment the job is finished I get the facture down to the study and a cheque there and then.  I have always used local French artisans for I believe I am supporting the local community etc and word gets around that you are at least putting your money where you mouth is.

So in the height of the winter if something goes wrong at least I have some form of lever.

Now to the other side if and as other contributors say you give 30% perhaps six months ago why should our money support a business that quite easily takes the deposit but does nothing until pressure comes to play?

Again I would be unhappy in paying substantial deposits without some form of guarantee.  You would know better than I but consumer credit law here is bluntly non-existant when compared to the UK.  And certainly in the UK I can get judgment within twenty one days and on-line and for as little as £50.

Perhaps the major bank you mention would be prepared to offer a guarantee that the artisan will commence on time and if he does not then they will guarantee either the work to be completed or the return of the deposit.

Once I worked in corporate finance and we had a client who wanted some leasing funds in excess of £25m problem was that the kit was on the high seas between USA and Scotland thus not in our clients possession and thus the deal was worthless.  I said I would do the deal with the guarantee of the Bank of Scotland.  Guess what I got it.  CA or CM here would not entertain such a positioning.

Val two sides to every story.

I can imagine their response.

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We paid a registered French artisan a few days before he finished with the job, it was only cosmetic to do, but guess what, he did not come back:  his friend got ill and he had to go to hospital, his friend died, he got hospitalised, he and his girlfriend split, he went out of business - he still works but never came back.  Excuses I have heard them all from French and English alike.   Still, not a great deal out of pocket but a lesson nonetheless.
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