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Thinking Of Moving to France and Buying a Lake


Barbel Bob
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Hi all,

This is my first post here. I have read lots of threads about different businesses, however, there doesnt seem to be much on the "buying a lake" front. I love France and go on Holiday there every year. We (my family) have come to the decision that the UK is no longer for us and we would like to move to France, lock, stock and barrell. I have a small family to support, so I will need to work/own a business for income.

After looking at many avenues, I had set my heart on buying and running a fishing lake, probably around the Limoges area. I have done some research on it, but I know I need to do much much more.

Has anyone done this? Is it the type of business venture that can support a small family (me, my wife and our two lads)? Any information or pointers that someone can give me would be most gratefuly received.

Many thanks
Bob

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Fishing is a popular sport in France but, as with any business, you will need to be well financed and do lots of research to be able to make a living from it.   There are some strange issues regarding access which can apply to lakes and this is something you will need to research in detail should you find something you would like to buy.  In genereal, I believe, if the lake is fed from a water source (river, stream etc.) then there are automatic public rights to fish in the lake - even if the lake itself is privately owned. There are however plenty of private lakes where this isn't a problem so it's just something to look out for and to ask the right questions of the right people about.

Generally speaking, in order to make a go of things you need:

enough  cash to buy the property you want (much more than the TV programs will have you believe)

twice as much cash as you think it will cost for any renovations etc.

enough cash to get your business up and running including lots more than you though of for marketing

enough cash to cover small business losses for the first two years by the time you've paid all cotisations

enough cash for the family to live on for two years.

If you've got all that covered, have bought the right property in the right location (location is everything), have come up with a good business plan, and keep to your budgets then you've got a good chance of making it work.  If after two years your business still can't earn you an income then you've made some bad decisions somewhere along the line and you'll probably end up selling at a loss and moving back to the UK. In short, if you've got somewhere around £350k to £400k in cash available to you, then you stand a good chance of making it work providing you make some good business decisions. Less than that amount and it will be much more difficult but not impossible.

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[quote user="Eslier"]Fishing is a popular sport in France but, as with any business, you will need to be well financed and do lots of research to be able to make a living from it.   There are some strange issues regarding access which can apply to lakes and this is something you will need to research in detail should you find something you would like to buy.  In genereal, I believe, if the lake is fed from a water source (river, stream etc.) then there are automatic public rights to fish in the lake - even if the lake itself is privately owned. There are however plenty of private lakes where this isn't a problem so it's just something to look out for and to ask the right questions of the right people about.

Generally speaking, in order to make a go of things you need:
enough  cash to buy the property you want (much more than the TV programs will have you believe)
twice as much cash as you think it will cost for any renovations etc.
enough cash to get your business up and running including lots more than you though of for marketing
enough cash to cover small business losses for the first two years by the time you've paid all cotisations
enough cash for the family to live on for two years.

If you've got all that covered, have bought the right property in the right location (location is everything), have come up with a good business plan, and keep to your budgets then you've got a good chance of making it work.  If after two years your business still can't earn you an income then you've made some bad decisions somewhere along the line and you'll probably end up selling at a loss and moving back to the UK. In short, if you've got somewhere around £350k to £400k in cash available to you, then you stand a good chance of making it work providing you make some good business decisions. Less than that amount and it will be much more difficult but not impossible.
[/quote]

Thanks for the reply eisler, I will take your comments on board and knowing that the fishing business is very seasonal, I do have other avenues that I can explore for income in the quieter periods.

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Hi Bob

I think that there are lots of people trying to do this in France, not surprising when you think of how popular fishing is across both the UK and France.  The issue as I see it is that many fisherman seem to underestimate the required size of operation to really get a good income from a lake.  When we were selling our last property we had many enquiries from people who believed a viable fishing business could be run from a 1 or 2 hectare lake.  If you search on here you will see postings from people like rusheslake, he (I think it's he) says you need at leat 7 hectares of water I believe to make a go of it.  you then need to consider access, will fisherman drive a long way south for fishing or would the business be better in the north etc.

The other thing is you do see fishing businesses for sale, one I've seen recently only started in 2005 and they are already giving up on it, of course they may have personal issues which have driven them to sell but even so you do need to be sure you have gone through all of the numbers.  How many fishermen ,at what price and what level of occupancy will you need to keep afloat?

My husband is a keen fisherman and we've been here for 4.5 years, we are very happy, we have a lake large enough to keep OH  happy (1 hectare) but prefered to buy a cheaper option and look at other income opportunities mainly because we couldn't make the numbers add up for us.  We could not afford to buy something large enough to run a fishing business that would bring in the levels of income required. 

I hope you cna make a go of it, nothing like waking up in the morning and seeing your own lake stretching out in front of you.

We will be waiting for updates.

Panda

 

 

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[quote user="Panda "]

Hi Bob

I think that there are lots of people trying to do this in France, not surprising when you think of how popular fishing is across both the UK and France.  The issue as I see it is that many fisherman seem to underestimate the required size of operation to really get a good income from a lake.  When we were selling our last property we had many enquiries from people who believed a viable fishing business could be run from a 1 or 2 hectare lake.  If you search on here you will see postings from people like rusheslake, he (I think it's he) says you need at leat 7 hectares of water I believe to make a go of it.  you then need to consider access, will fisherman drive a long way south for fishing or would the business be better in the north etc.

The other thing is you do see fishing businesses for sale, one I've seen recently only started in 2005 and they are already giving up on it, of course they may have personal issues which have driven them to sell but even so you do need to be sure you have gone through all of the numbers.  How many fishermen ,at what price and what level of occupancy will you need to keep afloat?

My husband is a keen fisherman and we've been here for 4.5 years, we are very happy, we have a lake large enough to keep OH  happy (1 hectare) but prefered to buy a cheaper option and look at other income opportunities mainly because we couldn't make the numbers add up for us.  We could not afford to buy something large enough to run a fishing business that would bring in the levels of income required. 

I hope you cna make a go of it, nothing like waking up in the morning and seeing your own lake stretching out in front of you.

We will be waiting for updates.

Panda

[/quote]

Hi Panda

Thanks for the polite and intelligent reply (this place can be rough on newcomers from what I have read). 7 hectares is above my budget, especially as I need living accommodation too, which is a shame as I have the energy and drive to really make this work. I have already got over the biggest hurdle (getting the children's buy in), however, I am nothing but determined. I am over there in mid June for a few days on a scouting mission across Limousin to see what is available.

Did you try and run a business from your 1 hectare lake?

Not getting the lake soon will be a minor set back and I may need to put my plans back 12 months to try and gain more funds. I am not a lover of the B&B business, which is why I loved the idea of my own lake... However, the prices seem to be rising already since I started looking. So you may be in luck for when you sell yours. Fingers crossed that you make a profit on your place.

Bob

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Bob.

I worked as a carp angling guide in France for a couple of years and ran a 100 acre lake for a Dutch company for a year.

Tis a hard game. Loads of guys out there whose dream of owning a lake and making a living from it is rapidly turning into a nightmare, the holiday market is flooded with these type of fisheries and there simply is not the demand for any more.

Fish stocks are expensive (reletively) and big fish are now almost impossible to buy. 7-9 kilos fish are easy enough, but they are simply not big enough to attract enough business to sustain a new business.

Plus you are going up against loads of other established lakes in that area. lakes with fish of in excess of 50 and 60lbs and then there are the numerous French run waters again with very big fish and much much cheaper to fish.

You need 20 acres of water to make it a viable fishery, so loads of investment stocks wise, but then you'll find out the average Brit is scared to death of any water much over 5 acres.

 

 

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Andy, thanks for the reply, I understand what you are saying. I need a few big catch's to whet the appetite of the masses to tempt them in. There doesnt seem to be a great deal of quality advertising on the web for the fishing holidays, I was kiind of hoping that my advertising ideas may give me an edge as I am able to get celebrity fishermen, (top class anglers) to my lake at the outset to take photos for advertising which should give me a boost to begin with. I am going over to have a look around limousin and the dordogne for 4 days on the16th June, however, from everything I have read, a 5-10 acres in size is not large enough for a decent business.

Thanks again

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A member of my family in the area you mention has two lakes on their  property ......they were very well stocked...then one night they discovered that they had been visited by people with nets ...they had  left small fish on the bank to die.....others in the area had also  had their lakes netted and the fish taken .....how frustrating is that ....stock up for the local poachers who do it big style ...
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Loads of lakes advertising both on the net in the carp mags and on various carp forums eg.http://www.anglinglines.com/ also very hard top get a good google ranking when Carp- Fishing- Holiday etc are used so much in searches.

Having celebrity mates will help, But! if you don't have big fish they will have nothing to shout about and 20's and 30's don't cut it with the angling public.A fair percentage (most)of those travelling to France have very unreal expectations, they may have only caught fish to 15lb in the UK yet come to France and think they will be stacking 40's and 50's up like breeze blocks.

Your username suggests your more of a river angler, so I wonder how much you know about the Carp fishing world.

I have a good knowledge of what is needed to make a fishery work in France and know a lot (not all) of the pitfalls aand would be happy to exchange PM's if you like.

 

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Hi Bob

Yes we did sell our first property and did make a good profit, thanks.  In our new place we now have a slightly larger lake than the last one but we have no intentions of running a business.  We went this time for a beautiful lake and pretty dire property, so all effort is in making the property what we want, it was the only way we could afford to have a house overlooking the lake which was always the aim.  From my laptop I can look out now and just make out OH and FIL sitting happily fihsing the evening away!

There are loads of lakes on www.frenchpropertylinks.com, chose your area and then select lakes as type, this will give you lots of food for thought, we bought both ours from this site privatley.

Good luck

Panda

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  • 3 weeks later...
Having been in this game since 2003 and located in Sarthe I can only advise you to think long and hard about it. Firstly I would consider your decision of Limoges... there are lots and lots of lakes down there and if you research on why so many of them in this area come back onto the market then you will find out that anglers, unless you have 50lb+ fish, fantastic facilities and do fantastic food... they arent willing to do the journey down there..

Dont think it is anything but hard graft... long winters upto your neck in mud believe me... been there got the tshirt.

Prices are much lower for lakes in the Limousin for a reason!

If you need a mortgage then forget it... you have 26 weeks a year to make your money and unless you can pull in a regular 4/5 anglers a week then you arent going to do it.

The taxes are daunting...

We survive (there are just the 2 of us & no borrowings) but there are no frills believe me!

I am attaching an article you might also find interesting...

Food for thought perhaps?

...

The Limousin Times 19/6 - 25/6/2007

Fishermen Netted

Yet another English proprietor of a Limousin lake has fallen foul of the laws of the land. Numerous English in the region have been found by the gendarmes to be using their lakes for illegal fishing activities. Mr 'W' has a holiday home in Fromental and divides his time between Great Britain and France. Mr W owns a fishing lake or 'etang' de la Chapelle in the commune of Dompierre les Eglises as well as renting etang des justices at Saint Sornin Leulac. Mr W is charged with illegally renting these lakes to other British holiday makers for Carp fishing. After 2 months of investigations the gendarmes finally decided to take action last week. Mr W has an web site where he offers his lakes for rent at €1000 per week.

Not only are the lakes not 'closed water',that is to say 'closed' by means of fish grills that prevent fish from public waters entering private lakes, but his business is also completely unregistered. Via his website Mr W offered fishing equipment for sale or hire as well as airport pick up services as part of his 'package'. It is also alleged that an illegal employee was being used to run the business. A joint operation including tax officers, employment agencies and river authorities. On the 12th June 4 Brits were caught fishing illegally at etang la Chapelle and a further 3 at the etang Justice. The fishermen had no permits and were using illegal rods. Mr W's computer has been seized as part of the investigation and a joint dossier is being compiled by URSSAF,BCR,CSP AND COLT. If convicted Mr W could face up to 3 years in prison and €45,000 fine.

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[quote user="rusheslake"]Having been in this game since 2003 and located in Sarthe I can only advise you to think long and hard about it. Firstly I would consider your decision of Limoges... there are lots and lots of lakes down there and if you research on why so many of them in this area come back onto the market then you will find out that anglers, unless you have 50lb+ fish, fantastic facilities and do fantastic food... they arent willing to do the journey down there.. Dont think it is anything but hard graft... long winters upto your neck in mud believe me... been there got the tshirt. Prices are much lower for lakes in the Limousin for a reason! If you need a mortgage then forget it... you have 26 weeks a year to make your money and unless you can pull in a regular 4/5 anglers a week then you arent going to do it. The taxes are daunting... We survive (there are just the 2 of us & no borrowings) but there are no frills believe me! I am attaching an article you might also find interesting... Food for thought perhaps? ... The Limousin Times 19/6 - 25/6/2007 Fishermen Netted Yet another English proprietor of a Limousin lake has fallen foul of the laws of the land. Numerous English in the region have been found by the gendarmes to be using their lakes for illegal fishing activities. Mr 'W' has a holiday home in Fromental and divides his time between Great Britain and France. Mr W owns a fishing lake or 'etang' de la Chapelle in the commune of Dompierre les Eglises as well as renting etang des justices at Saint Sornin Leulac. Mr W is charged with illegally renting these lakes to other British holiday makers for Carp fishing. After 2 months of investigations the gendarmes finally decided to take action last week. Mr W has an web site where he offers his lakes for rent at €1000 per week. Not only are the lakes not 'closed water',that is to say 'closed' by means of fish grills that prevent fish from public waters entering private lakes, but his business is also completely unregistered. Via his website Mr W offered fishing equipment for sale or hire as well as airport pick up services as part of his 'package'. It is also alleged that an illegal employee was being used to run the business. A joint operation including tax officers, employment agencies and river authorities. On the 12th June 4 Brits were caught fishing illegally at etang la Chapelle and a further 3 at the etang Justice. The fishermen had no permits and were using illegal rods. Mr W's computer has been seized as part of the investigation and a joint dossier is being compiled by URSSAF,BCR,CSP AND COLT. If convicted Mr W could face up to 3 years in prison and €45,000 fine.[/quote]

Mr W sounds like he was either very stupid or he deserves all he gets. After reading all of the very good advice on this forum and doing research, I have decided that this business may not be for me :-( I have not ruled it out completely as it depends on the details of the deal.

Thanks to all who took time out and posted their advice, it is much appreciated.

Bob.

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  • 8 months later...

Hi Bob

not sure if you could make a living in the limoges area  have a house in a place called ecurat about 1hr 10 min from limoges airport we have quite a few lakes around here and i have yet to see anyone fishing the private lakes yes the council run ones the odd person even the rivers last w/e first week of the trout season i only came accross about 12 people im a trout man but my sons fish all over the uk corse fishing they are hoping to fish obver here this year i do bump into people from the uk  comming over for weeks at a time but again its just the odd few

 good luck

 David

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  • 3 months later...

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