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Reporting illegal working


ruonglue
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[quote user="hedgehog"]what sort of person would inform against other Brits.....Cowards.
Most of the French that I have worked on my house want cash in hand do they inform on each other?   No they leave it to people like you
The french are cowards but some brits make me ashamed to adtimt that im british
[/quote]

Fred?

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You're right Chancer.

The only case I know of personally , (we bought a puppy from him) , an english man, had been working completely unregistered as a builder here for 15 years . He had french men working for him, and fell out with one of them, who reported him.

He had to register legally, then pay back all the missed cotisations, taxes etc. They also chased up the clients who had paid him (or some of them) who were also penalised. Most were english.

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[quote user="Cat"]

[quote user="hedgehog"]what sort of person would inform against other Brits.....Cowards.

Most of the French that I have worked on my house want cash in hand do they inform on each other?   No they leave it to people like you

The french are cowards but some brits make me ashamed to adtimt that im british

[/quote]

Fred?

[/quote]lol...im flattered Cat ..not me but i think i know who it is ,...been a bit of a topic at work for all of us working black..lol...ps tht was a joke..

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Well I was justified in reporting illegal work to URSSAF because the french person in question was officially working for us and being paid by us at the time when he was supposedly off sick with a bad back. No way were we going to let that go when we had no money for ourselves after paying him and he was using our vehicle too! In fact our accountant gave us the local anonymous phone number for URSSAF because it was her husband who told us about this bloke who turned out to be a thief and a rogue and sacked by many other local builders but of course, being France you can't get references unless they are offered.
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[quote user="Val_2"]Well I was justified in reporting illegal work to URSSAF because the french person in question was officially working for us and being paid by us at the time when he was supposedly off sick with a bad back. No way were we going to let that go when we had no money for ourselves after paying him and he was using our vehicle too! In fact our accountant gave us the local anonymous phone number for URSSAF because it was her husband who told us about this bloke who turned out to be a thief and a rogue and sacked by many other local builders but of course, being France you can't get references unless they are offered.[/quote]fair play to you

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I don't see that nationality has anything to do with the case.

Would one not report a crime simply because the perpetrator was British?

While I would probably not go so far as to report someone working on the black, I wouldn't employ one either, given the risks.

A few years ago it was understandable for someone to work like this, but since the introduction of the AE scheme, with the possibility of being registered and having a Siret number (even if a % of turnover is 'forgotten') there seems much less justification.

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[quote user="hedgehog"]what sort of person would inform against other Brits.....Cowards.
Most of the French that I have worked on my house want cash in hand do they inform on each other?   No they leave it to people like you
The french are cowards but some brits make me ashamed to adtimt that im british
[/quote]

I think you misjudge me perhaps; informing implies a secretive telling tales type of person, who hides in the background without revealing his/her identity. I am quite open...put banners on my house...wear a "las malvinas son argentinas" tee shirt in the summer.[:)]

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Recently working for British clients who had unregistered UK workers on site as well (paid cash). Trouble started when we were asked to quote for other works and then told we were too expensive and the UK guys could do it for half the cost.

The French system may mean that legit entreprises are very expensive but in my opinion if you embark on a renovation project in France you should be aware of and stick to the rules.

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Not that uncommon, at least round here, Mr Big often verbally rewrites the contract to reduce the wages of workers even those working on the black at well below SMIG rates and in some cases "forgets" to pay the last couple of weeks at the end of a contract.Awkward situation when the contract has used one of his mates on a casual labour only sub-contract.
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Scruffy chap came up to me outside Géant yesterday offering to clean my windscreen for a couple of Euros.

He couldn't show me his SIRET and wouldn't give me a facture, so I told him to **** off.

Even though he looked pretty hungry I didn't want to encourage him to break the law.

Should I report him to the authorities?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just read this topic.

 

I'm intending to employ french for some building work , but facing an issue  for example  on decorators today , I'm thinking..

 

This is the EU  freedom to work anywhere.. just  pay your taxes.  So why not employ somone to come in from the UK and decorate.. will take them 4 weeks, I know the people, know their work, its not like the electrical side of things where U must have someone who has to know what they are doing in France  or you end up with a ring main and uk plugs, or plumbing that no one else can understand  !

Not doing it on the black, all UK taxes paid etc.. I don't quite understand why it may  not be allowed.. (seemingly ) .  Will they just throw red tape at the bloke so he runs away  thus making it all impossible ?   Red tape is one things, the law is another.. I dont get why it's against the law or is it one and the same thing  ..

 

I wouldn't heasitate  going to france to sell some baked beans to someone.. that's working.. that's legal, why is painting any different ?

a very confused  Bill

 

 

 

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Others know more about this than I but here's my two penny-worth.

Cross border working is legal.  However, working uninsured is not.  Your employees must have insurance to work here and that's where the snags come in.  Afaik they need to be registered artisans to get said insurance.

Tax.  Wherever you are in the EU, you pay tax where you work.  Work in France, taxed in France.

Healthcare - they cannot get treatment here via an EHIC if working so need to get medical cover for everyday stuff, let alone work injuries.  What happens if they fall off a ladder and need to be in hospital for weeks or months? - you'd end up paying if you don't get this right.

Not impossible but complicated.  That's why so many opt for French-based artisans. 

 

Beans : You can import them but need to be a registered business to flog them for a profit - and pay tax and cotis on said profit.

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Bill, ditto to what Cooperlola said, but also think of the neighbours; who if they think you are importing labour to the detriment of the locals may not be too keen to help you out if you do have an emergency. Sure it's your decision; but we've always used locals and it does work in our favour in many ways. OK there are small problems, our electrician was gob smacked because he couldn't work out why we wanted 10 points in the kitchen, but after; he admitted that we were right. Also remember that locals understand the local conditions, building techniques and local products. Think about it, also remember to factor in travel and lodging costs if you import labour.
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Not all work needs l'assurance décennale. For decorating a house, it's not necessary - structural stuff, plumbing, electrics, tiling etc it is but not for painting and decorating.

Ordinary British business insurance usually covers work in the EU, not just the UK. So if a British-based workman damaged someone's French home when they fell off their ladder, the cost of remedial work to the building would be covered - providing they had that insurance. When we looked at the possibility of doing some work for a British holiday home owner before we were French-resident, the only "odd" stipulation within the policy was that any dispute arising from the work would have had to be heard in a British court.

You can buy cover for overseas medical treatment arising from work accidents - and repatriation to the UK - for workers just as you can buy holiday insurance.

Paying tax is no problem - why should it be? Plenty of British residents have French holiday homes from which they derive income in euros or GBP and have no trouble declaring that income and paying tax and, of course, the double taxation treaty means they don't pay twice.

Whether it's worth all the effort and additional expense of getting someone over is another discussion but it can be done. Though I'm confident there's a queue of people who will post and disagree.

If so, I'll try to care. But I'll probably fail...[:P]

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thanks everyone..

 

I take your point ,  may not be worth the  ache.. 

but.. if anyone cant sleep tonight.. see below.. I am not going to read it all, suggest you don't unless you want to exploit a gap in the market and set up a biz niz in worker bees from Poland or the UK .

Just isnt worth the candle for a decorator & a months work . Maybe two years in the bizniz or an HND or similar is all thats needed anyway .. but didnt study the detail

 

rgds

Bill

In case someone comes calling, It's available in French as well  :) 

http://ec.europa.eu/atoz_en.htm

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2005:255:0022:0142:en:PDF

http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/top_layer/living_working/index_en.htm

http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qualifications/regprof/index.cfm?fuseaction=regProf.listCountry&quid=3&mode=desc&pageNum=1#regprofsListByCountry

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2005:255:0022:0142:en:PDF

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There is absolutely no problem in employing contractors from the UK. The only issue is that they must be based (resident) in the Uk and do most of their work in the UK. It helps to get yourself a proper written estimate before they start from (just in case somebody comes round to check).

There is in my view much to much scaremongering about employing workers from outside France, mainly this seems to be related to dodgy brits living and working in France (on the black).

Of course the downside is that you need to weigh up the savings against the risks of possible guarantee problems and ensure they provide work to any local regulations, but that is your choice.

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Got your note, Catalpa, thanks.  I'll reply shortly.

Catalpa and Richard are quite right of course. I don't want anybody to think for one moment that I believe it's not possible to employ whomever you wish (in fact as I say, it's just my 2p worth, I'm hardly an expert) I simply urge some caution.  I do know people who have caught serious colds by getting work done to UK specs but where decorating is concerned that's hardly an issue, is it?  I'm sure that big companies like HUF have sorted out all the possible wrinkles and know their way around the European systems - I'd just want to be sure I knew what I was getting into with people coming over to do odd bits of work. 

I had a great painter/decorator/handyman in Britain who offered to come over and do a few bits and pieces for me but once he'd looked into the social security aspect and we added on the cost of his travel it just was less viable a proposition than we had thought, and rather too complicated for him.  I've been perfectly happy with the people I've employed on this side of the channel (of both nationalities as it happens, but all properly registered and paying their dues) and ultimately I doubt that I'd have paid much less for my UK bloke, once we'd sorted the paperwork and paid for him to get here.

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[quote user="cooperlola"]

I had a great painter/decorator/handyman in Britain who offered to come over and do a few bits and pieces for me but once he'd looked into the social security aspect and we added on the cost of his travel it just was less viable a proposition than we had thought, and rather too complicated for him.

[/quote]

I'm not too sure why the social security aspect is complicated. If it is for short duration work and they are based in the UK, then tax and social security are paid in the UK. The person is still resident in the UK, s/he is covered by UK health care etc. They presumably have only temporary accommodation in France (hotel, B&B etc). Why would they need to pay social security or taxes in France ?  For large companies they do exactly this. There is no "deal" They are perfectly entitled to send a team to France to erect a house, fix a roof or whatever.  The only "issue' in France is that France does not really recognise (or refuses to understand) a UK self employed status, so that it could be seen that it is you as a client that is directly hiring somebody. However , any self employed person should be able to provide (if called upon)  a "contract of work" that looks no different from that of a Ltd company.

As well as France based workers , we've used UK based workers and even had a Polish team that put up a barn.The mayor, our neighbour and friend  certainly did not think it was unusual nor did our gendarme friend. In fact nobody in the village even raised an eyebrow.

Problems arise because a) the person is really resident in France  b)

they do not have their own 3rd party insurance and health care (e.g EHIC) and c)

as mentioned above that they do not do the job according to the national

regulations.

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Well, I dont' want to have a silly argument with you because clearly you know a lot more about this than I do.  I only know that when he wanted to extend his insurance etc to France and had looked at all the stuff he had to do he was not so keen on the idea and the price he wanted to charge as a result put him in line with what I paid here in the end.
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