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Reporting illegal working


ruonglue

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Whilst having in the past some sympathy for those who have moved to france and are struggling to survive. I have recently lost two contracts to brits who are undercutting me and I am certain they are working en black. I have had enough. I am paying cotisations which support their stay here  and have decided that whereas in the past I tended to turn a blind eye I am now not going to.

My question is.Who do I report them to and what evidence do I need ?

 

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Ports of call:

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URSSAF have a special dept which deals with le travai noir. Just ring and ask to be put through as you wish to report this and they will treat you annonimously without you giving your details but the details of the culprits you wish to report only so get their names, reg numbers,addresses and phone numbers etc. You leave it with them and you will not hear anything personally but it does work. AND before anyone calls me a traitor to my countryfolks, I did this to report an employee of ours who was moonlighting when off ill and he was using one of our vehicles as well and he was french. Our accountant gave me the number to ring as well as he had several clients with problems about illegal workers etc.
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I used to feel like that 10 years ago, when I was first starting up my business in France but now the situation has got far worse as many more Brits are here trying to earn a crust at the expense of the legitimate ones - No thanks to Amanda Lamb etc. all  promoting la vie en rose!  I know it's not only the Brits, but from my customer base of 70/30 Brit/French clients, the problem is far worse on the Brit side!

Personally I only have a beef about the workers who are totally au noir, and not the ones who are properly registered  and do some cash now and again - particularly those who go on to do the jobs that I may have quoted for.

This site is a good one - with similar bodies to contact as Clair has posted.

http://have-it.com/denonciation/pages/astuces/travail_au_noir.htm

 

 

 

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[quote user="Punch"]

Personally I only have a beef about the workers who are totally au noir, and not the ones who are properly registered  and do some cash now and again -

[/quote]

Me too - most people do the odd cash job.

I wouldnt hesitate to report someone if they were taking work away from me by working on the black, paying no cotisations etc -

Steve

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It is serious but I have to chuckle as to what the French may say about the jobs which the Brits have taken from them. I bet there is a chat room tucked away with exactly the same being said about the British taking the French jobs & how can they do it for less. Just think of all the extra biz that Amanda Lamb & co have generated buy selling France to the Brits amongst others, as you quote, 70% of your income is generated from the Brits anyway

In the UK at present there are many people saying the same thing about the Polish, but when you look into it the hard fact's are they are prepared to undertake a job for less (competative market place) than another person - who is in the wrong as long as they are legal & able?

Best way is not to assume they are not legal but to get the hard fact's, get them to give a quote for a job, it may be that they are just more competative in a hard market place - but then again?

 

Marc

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Just re read my own reply - I am not having a go at anyone & fully agree that those who work for cash in hand should not get away with it. I am afraid though that as long as people are prepared to pay for a cheap cash in hand job it will continue.

I work with in the kitchen / bedroom industry & have some 77 employed staff & over 200 sub contract labour. Whenever I speak to the sub contract labour about additional weekend work, a large proportion will alway's have a "private on at the weekend".

 

Marc

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in my particular case I look after gardens etc - nothing fancy, just grass cutting and keeping it all tidy. I charge what I think is an ok rate, not too cheap, but not too expensive - 22€/hr + TVA. There is someone local to me who I know isnt registered but charges 7€/hr + fuel costs - I have no proof yet though. They havent taken any work from me where we have both been quoting,  but if he wasnt about, then would I have got the work?  Who knows. When I manage to get proof I will report them, no question.

Steve

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This whole subject is very topical for us.

Nobody around here seems to think that they should pay TVA on any service provided. That's the locals & our (not Brit) residence secondaire neighbour.  Where do they think the tax revenue is going to be generated for this country?  It's always someone else who should be paying.

Meanwhile, they complain that the country is going down the tubes and Sarkozy is going to bankrupt them. We love them dearly, but really .........

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£17.43 plus tax per hour to have your grass cut .......hmmmm    

Using the Cheque Emploi system the minimum wage plus charges equates to 11 euros an hour. So this probably represents the absolute lowest rate for basic labour.

If someone is providing equipment, travelling to the job a  100% markup doesn't seem unreasonable.

As to whether it is achievable in the context being discussed in this thread is perhaps another question.

Ther additional complication at present is the current rate of exchange. 22 +Vat at last years rates (£14.80 ish) were eminently more affordable AND perhaps more in line with UK rates/expectations.

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Yes, we are very busy - took on 3 new gardens last week alone. We are now choosey as to what we take on - we dont bother with small gardens that just require the walk behind mower - its not worth unloading it - we have a minimum charge of 1 hr - if it takes 20 mins with the ride on, we charge the same. Most gardens are between 1 and 3 hrs cutting, with one or two upto 6 hrs. Dont forget, we have to buy this equipment and run it, pay out cotisations etc. Last year we quoted 20€/hr for a local job that we estimated would take 2 days to complete. We lost to another chap who charged 15€/hr, but he took 4 days to do the job as he didnt have the right kit..........We have several mowers now of all types to make our lives easier more than anything else.

We have also started to charge TVA this year with no customer complaints.

Steve

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As I've said on here many time before, I really have a problem with people working on the black, especially when they're effectively guests in France.  I understand the French system of 5 days for the government and one day for me and if registered Brits/Dutch whoever want to do that's ok I think, it's an 'accepted' way of the whole economy working here and whilst the French tax authorities know it happens, they don't actively chase those doing it.

But there are just so many people in my area who are working wholly on the black, setting up as builders, gardeners, whatever and trying - trying only - to build houses for their 'clients', it makes me furious.  One guy is wholly unregistered, was a mechanic in the UK and is working all day every day as a builder and is now starting to build a house for somebody.  Another is registered as a painter and is touting for work as a builder, saying that he's built houses for people in France - I've seen an example of his painting and a wall he built, painting was merde and the wall had to be demolished and rebuilt.

And it's bizarre how may of the 'au noir' are also driving round in UK registered cars, no VEL and no carte vert either.

I have no sympathy for the people working on the black, great sympathy for those registered artisans trying to earn a decent and legitimate living here (with perhaps a little cash in hand) and if they are reported by legitimate artisans, not a problem for me.  It's something that was discussed at our first council meeting and it's likely that our Canton will be looking at this sort of thing as part of it's enforcement work - I'm going to volunteer for the Commission!

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[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

I have no sympathy for the people working on the black, great sympathy for those registered artisans trying to earn a decent and legitimate living here (with perhaps a little cash in hand) and if they are reported by legitimate artisans, not a problem for me.  It's something that was discussed at our first council meeting and it's likely that our Canton will be looking at this sort of thing as part of it's enforcement work - I'm going to volunteer for the Commission!

[/quote]

Hurrah!

Steve

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I only report those who I have lost contracts to directly. I am then able to give details of the client and report the builder for working without a signed estimate. In a lot of cases the 'contractor' has a siret no. but has a team of stray brits who are working for cash. I've reported them to the URSSAF, Impots and Gendarmes. Sometimes the result is obvious as the site closes down but in other cases nothing much appears to happen but, as far as I know, all those I have reported over the years are no longer living in France.

What can you do when you've lost a job to someone you know doesn't have insurance?

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Good luck Steve ......I somtimes wish I had somone like you on my door step in the Vendee ...I  have recently forked out on a self drive mower to tackle my grass as when left a few months like over winter its heading up round my knees ...I dont have a field ...but I have got enough ...  
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Just to clarify things, if someone has a siret number, does that guarentee that they are registered? Someone did mention to me it doesn't automatically mean they are, and I would like to know if I am, inadvertantly,  employing someone on the black.[8-)]

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[quote user="Jo"]Just to clarify things, if someone has a siret number, does that guarentee that they are registered? Someone did mention to me it doesn't automatically mean they are, and I would like to know if I am, inadvertantly,  employing someone on the black.[8-)]
[/quote]

If they have a Siret or Siren  N° it means that they have indeed registered a business of some kind. What that business actually is, and what they are registered for is another matter. The only real way to check if the trade or profession they are excercising is what they are registered for is to ask to see their insurance and or registration details. They should be able to produce;  An attestation from their insurance company showing what they are actually insured to do; A registration document (or card) from their local Chambre des Metiers ( or Chambre de commerce if they are profession liberale); and an extract KBIS. 

 As a guide, we pay around 3000 euros a year just for our business insurance, and are pleased to show it to anyone who asks for proof of our full cover. Alarm bells should ring if someone comes to re-do your roof and their principle activity is gardening or cleaning for instance. This is the link for my business which I give to my clients ;

http://www.cofacerating.fr/portail/entreprise_identite/identite.asp?nscrl=19943789&metier=ALL&geo=ALL&J=28/08/2007&H=11:32:24

There are several sites for checking out a siret or siren number . This one is quite good because you can search just by telephone number or surname or other criteria.

http://www.cofacerating.fr/portail/recherche_entreprise_inter/recherche_entreprise.asp?nscrl=19943789&metier=ALL&geo=ALL&idnav=bf5fe5225e8779a676be23a40f37736e&J=29/03/2008&H=16:19:06&tp=1

Here are some more;

http://avis-situation-sirene.insee.fr/avisituV2/jsp/avis.jsp

http://www.cofacerating.fr/portail/general_accueil/accueil.asp?metier=ALL&geo=ALL&idnav=

http://www.societe.com/

The other important things to remember are that may of these sites only list the "activity principle" of the entreprise according to the APE code number they have been issued with, secondary activities are not always shown. A company may well be legally registered for a related actvity that is not listed.

Finally,  having a Siren or Siret number is no gurantee of insurance or good workmanship- it only shows that a company is registered. Always try to get recommendations for any major works you require having done. There are many people using false or made up Siret numbers so at least by using the sites mentioned above, you can actually see if a company has a legal entity in France.

I Hope this is useful .

www.punchardrenovation.com

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I am in the same boat and have turned a blind eye to it for the past seven years but no more I am making a list of all the ones in my area to report there are a lot of them and it has affected my work I recently gave 11 estimates and didn’t get the work but they got someone I know to do it on the black and that was the last straw for me.

I to would like help on what information I need to supply to the authorities.

please help....

 

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  • 2 years later...
You are TOO EAGER to report!!!

We bought an old house in Burgundy.

My 3 twenty-something nephews came from Poland for short period (2 weeks) to help us

demolish a huge steel shed

 that we didn't want to keep. (and yes, we do

have the permit to demolish).  And, ahem, I was born in Poland so this is where a lot of my family still lives.

My husband (who speaks English only) was working with them

today when the Gendarmes showed up! ('')

They tried to question the boys who only speak Polish and some English,

so no conversation there, and then turned to my husband who by gestures

etc explained to them that he is the owner.

 Easy enough to check this

one - he gave them his name and age but they did not ask to see his passport.

The Gendarmes left, but now we are all uneasy!

My guess is that an overeager neighbour called them in - thinking my husband and my nephews were all

illegal workers!

We paid bus fares for the boys, they are staying in our house, we feed

them and after work we take them to see the tourist sights.

We will of course give them some gifts on departure, and perhaps some

pocket money... but they mostly have fun being in France and learning to

use power tools!

Does that make them undocumented workers?

I am worried that Gendarmes continue to pester us and perhaps all the other offices which you so hotly recommend to denounce others to!

We are not doing jobs for other people, but you can say that we took anyway French jobs (or yours) by doing the demolition

ourselves rather than hiring people.

According to your line of thought, we should be declaring and paying taxes on our own work performed in our own property

since technically we deprived some chap of 22 euro per hour wage ?

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There is nothing stopping family members helping you knock down a barn, and nothing stopping you giving them a free holiday and a bit of pocket money, provided that the holiday and money are not directly linked to the demolition.

Let it be known round the community that these kids were your nephews and it should shut up the tittletattlers. Try taking the kids into the local bar and telling the barman, that should make sure that everyone soon hears about it. 

But I am afraid that the informer mentality is still alive and well in France. I sometimes think that those who tried to resist the Nazis or help allied pilots were in more danger from their own countrymen than the Germans!

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uhm, they did come to help us with the demolition - it was definitely planned an coordinated.

The timing - one starts university in October, the other had 2 weeks unused holidays he chose to spend in France.

The third one joined a bit later because he had a serious argument with his wife and wanted to cool off his head.

so I would say there is a definite connection between their "working holidays" and the shed demolition!

The way we see it,  we did help a lot their families before, (mostly financially - we are well off and they weren't)

and it is definitely exchange of favours between the family members - gratitude?

I really don't see how the authorities can prevent people from helping for free or giving gifts to the family members.

All my sarcasm in the previous post aside - I think it the world would be better off if people snitched less and helped more.

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[quote user="devils advocate"]I think it the world would be better off if people snitched less and helped more.[/quote]

I think that comment is coming from the fact you're feeling a bit raw about what you think (you don't have any proof that someone "denounced") has happened to you when you weren't doing anything (very) wrong - though if any of your visiting family had been injured while doing the work you might have found yourself on the receiving end of a rather large medical bill.

Even so, putting that and your experience aside, you can probably see that if you set up a business, pay the hefty cotisations in advance of any earnings - ditto paying for the 10 year insurance which, as Punch said, can be around 3000€ each year - you would resent... and your legitimate earnings could be directly affected by... unregisted people working au noir. The outgoings for a new, registered artisan can be around 6000€ in the first year before they've earned a cent - it's therefore easy for the dishonest unregistered to undercut honest enterprises on price.

Edited to add:

Just to be clear: I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with your situation - family helping - just that the other posters passing on the details of unregistered activity where money (sometimes substantial amounts) is exchanging hands isn't necessarily unreasonable.

Edit II:

It'll be interesting to see if you receive different opinions on TF -

http://www.totalfrance.com/france/forum/viewtopic.php?t=93217&highlight=&sid=d30cf83c7c35a82caf0befecb9bdaf69

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