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Mikey
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Did anyone see the programe Capital on M6.  From what i understood we do not have to buy those Aqua,i go off in the rain alarms at all. As long as you have an alarm that meets the chriteria set out in NF 90 whatever then you conform. the alarm doesn't have to have an NF certificate. 

So all the scare mongering that made gite owner buy alarms last yr made Aquasensor a fortune.

so anyone needing an alarm can buy what is probly the best pool alarm in the world from the US for around £160 + delivery and get an alarm that actually works. But you must make sure it is the european model. It conforms but doesn't have a certificate. But you are still conforming.

Thats what the programe said.

I'll be getting one then driving my tractor over the Aquasensor and sending it back in pieces

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Thanks Mikey, I appreciate having that info. SO SO many things that we buy here can be had in the States for FAR less than what we pay here. It is often very painful to pay these prices. Is there any way we can verify, legally, that the product does not HAVE to have the NF certification on it? I have a copy of the law and it says they DO have to have the NF certification - which is the ONLY reason we bought here.

Also, from what I have heard, the Gendarmes have not been fully informed as to what meets and what doesn't meet the legal criteria, making it impossible - for the time being - to make any inspections.

This seems really really poorly planned, and yes, caused all of us, concerned about meeting our legal obligations, to go out and pay a fortune for items that may not even end up working.....

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 It conforms but doesn't have a certificate

Which unfortunately means that it cannot conform, the law states that to count as a means of protection an alarm must have an AFNOR certificate.

Nevertheless it could be a useful addition to protection based on fencing.

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I'm only repeating what it said on the TV programe, it showed a couple who had bought their alarm from USA via internet cos they couldn't afford the rip off prices here. The TV presenter quoted the law saying as long as the alarm fitted the criteria of NF 90 whatever it is you conform.

If anyone wants to know more then maybe contact M6 and ask them about last weeks  programe Capital 

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Irrespective of what the programme said on Capital I have to agree with BJSLIV. I would like to be equivocal about this subject and so needed to take some time to consider my response. Naturally, assessment of compliance is not up to me but I want make sure that my advice is correct.

If a device comes from US or any other country for that matter and has not been through the French ANFOR testing regime then it does not comply. Irrespective if it is the best engineered and performing device on the planet, if it is your sole form of security then you might be protected but you are not compliant.

I suspect part of the reason that these devices seem to be priced out of line with the pricing policy of similar devises in other countries was in fact the investment made in gaining the compliance certification. This investment was considerable as the testing is exhaustive so manufacturers naturally are looking for return of and on their investment.

The Programme on channel 6 did highlight one thing to me though. They demonstrated the effectiveness of the pressure sensing alarm. In a demonstration, an infant (simulated) was dropped into the pool. It took 9 seconds for the waves to reach the alarm and for it to begin sounding, meantime the infant is at the bottom of the pool. The attending adult then needs to hear the alarm, recognise it as an alert, hurry to the pool, dive in, retrieve the infant, and only then begin cardio-vascular resuscitation. The Infant would be very lucky to survive that scenario to my mind, and that is an 'ideal'.

In the end however its is the pool owner who must decide and they also take the responsibility for their choice. To me an Alarm has too many 'ifs' associated with it to be sufficiently effective. Hence, I prefer still to regard these devices as a secondary line of protection rather than a sole protection. But again its not me who makes the choice.

As for the original question, "being robbed - by a compliant alarm'; without all the circumstances its difficult to make a judgement, But one issue is very clear: Buying a device from Overseas, that appears effective is a plain waist of money as it will not protect you from prosecution if there is a control. Except that is, if you purchase it in combination with another device which is compliant.

Andrew

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Hi

my understanding was that there will be an international co-operation on standards. So AFNOR, BS, ISO etc will be in alignement.

If this is the case, we should be asking ourselves "What is the equivalent to this AFNOR? and is it cheaper ?

Peter

 

 

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If that is the case then I imagine M6 legal department will be very busy in the future defending their claims in court. I doubt before making such claims they would not have researched the subject.

My opinion of the Aquasensor alarms is not very high. I also cannot see how they can conform as they are so unreliable.

The high cost of getting AFNOR certs isn't an issue, its an investment anyone would have to make with any product and shouldn't play a part in the HIGH price of Aquasensors wind detector.

If having an NF cert is so important then every product sold in France should have one to guarantee our safety and reliability of the product, but they don't.

I do believe what M6 said and that if an alarm meets the criteria then it conform to the law. 

Last year i had an electronics salesman staying in one of our gites and I showed him the inside of the alarm and told him its cost. He doubted very much if the components inside costed more than £50.

As the guy said on the program this law has made some people millionaires.

I will be buying a poolguard, the model made for the European market, i will also be getting a safety cover, a non conforming one, my pool is already fenced, non conforming.

Just to add the poolguard is CE approved, so i really can't see what the problem is.

 

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I just copied this from a French company that sells the poolguard.

NOTA : Je me suis entretenu un long moment avec le fabriquant américain de la POOLGUARD qui m'a informé qu'il n'envisageait pas de faire tester la POOLGUARD par un laboratoire français. Il a confirmé que la POOLGUARD version Europe que nous commercialisons est conforme aux normes européennes. Par contre la POOLGUARD version américaine en 110V n'est pas conforme. Fréquence et alimentation de la POOLGUARD version US non agrée pour l'Europe. Par contre la POOLGUARD version Europe est conforme aux normes françaises. Nous refusons de vendre des alarmes POOLGUARD version américaine sur le sol européen car les compagnies d'assurances pourraient classer ce produit 110V comme non conforme.
- La POOLGUARD est une alarme déjà conforme à toutes les normes américaines. CE UL ASTM ETL
- La POOLGUARD est une alarme déjà conforme à la norme ASTM-F 2208-02 pour les alarmes de piscines.
- La POOLGUARD est déjà agrée par le CPSC = RAPPORT COMMISSION SECURITE PISCINES U.S.A HOMOLOGATION USA CERTIFICAT AGREEMENT
- On connaît la sévérité et le sérieux des agréments américain et en particulier sur tout ce qui touche à la sécurité !
- Les modifications que l'AFNOR exige ne sont pas nécessaires d'après le fabriquant et qu'en plus cela n'augmenterait pas le niveau de sécurité de la POOLGUARD !
- Conçue et fabriquée par le plus grand fabricant mondial d'alarmes de piscines, elle bénéficie de 20 ans de recherches, de tests et d'innovations technologiques qui en font l'une des plus sûres et plus fiables. Ce système de sécurité est homologué CE !

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Mickey

I understand that you want to defend the suitability of your preferred product and I support the reasons for that. But I do not support the idea that this device 'Poolguard' is compliant if it has not the mark of ANFOR.To muddy the water on this issue is poor advise to give on a public forum in my opinion. Conforming is not Complying.

'Its must comply or you are not compliant', was my message from the beginning and I see not reason to change that from the text you posted or the TV Programme - they are not the testing authority (neither am I) and therefore are not in a position to say if something complies or not.

I am posting again on this issue because I believe that some readers might get the idea that there is some grey areas here - I believe that there is no grey area. The French Government will not be persuaded in my experience by an American company or a TV programme to go soft on their policies. Neither does it matter a pin if some device has a test mark from another Country even if its EU - its fine for that country but its not for France. This is a matter of pubic safety and no one can afford to cut corners, in my opinion.

Its for you to choose naturally, but others must beware to be compliant or take the responsibility. Compliance means Anfor Standard NF P 90-306... if it doesn't have that mark then it isn't.

Andrew

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Hendo's considered response is quite correct. The poolguard alarm, good though it is, does not meet NF P 90-307

If you scroll to the bottom of the page in the importers website, you will find the following statement:

Si vous désirez une alarme conforme à la norme NF P 90-307 il faut commander l'alarme piscine (réf. APN) ou (réf. PREMIUM) !'"

Which tells you all you need to know.

The fact of the matter is that the poolguard alarm has not been tested to the required French standard. There are a number of aspects where it does not meet the law and cannot be retro modified by the home owner to comply. For instance:

The standard requires that the alarm be permanently fixed in place so that it cannot be removed using bare hands only. The Poolguard cannot be permanently fixed in place, it is designed to operate by being placed in and taken out of the pool.

It also does not meet the regulations in regard to on/off switches as it is turned off by lifting it out of the water. The regulations require an alarm to automatically re-arm after swimming. It cannot do this.

It is an excellent product if used in conjunction with a fence which complies with the norm, but by itself it cannot be used as a sole 'dispositif de securite', so buying one is a waste of your cash unless you are using it as an extra level of security in an already conforming environment.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but although the Poolguard meets some EU standards it does not conform to the French law and I would not like to be the one defending it in court.

Richard

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I agree totally with Hendo and Richard's comments, although we did look at a Poolguard alarm and, as I've become increasingly more attuned to the attitude of some of the French with regard to "la legislation" I really found this quote from the Poolguard guy's website (already quoted by Mikey)the most telling and interesting:

"Je pense que tout propriétaire de piscine doit justifié d'un équipement de sécurité agrée ou non. L'important est que le système fonctionne et qu'il soit fiable. En cas de contrôle il devra présenter la facture d'achat.
Pensez-vous que tous les propriétaires de piscines vont acheter un système homologué AFNOR ? Pour ma part je ne pense pas. "

(my italics)

As everyone keeps saying: you can't take any risks with peoples lives. However, as long as the majority of products available are clearly a complete rip-off by those cashing in on this need to conform, many will continue to look for suitable alternatives at reasonable prices. As the Poolguard site also says - given that the US is among the world's most litigious countries, it's probably a fair assumption that a product accepted and tested there will have been tried out to within an inch of its life.

Jane

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Un des moyens pour les propriétaires de s'assurer que les matériels, qu'ils vont vouloir acquérir ou faire installer, respectent ces exigences est de vérifier qu'ils sont conformes aux normes homologuées : les dispositifs conformes à ces normes sont présumés satisfaire ces exigences. Le fabricant de ce dispositif assume la conformité du produit qu'il commercialise.
La conformité aux normes AFNOR est un des moyens, mais pas le seul, de satisfaire ces exigences. Parmi les autres moyens, existent notamment les normes, spécifications techniques ou procédés de fabrication en vigueur dans les pays membres de la Communauté européenne ou partie à l’accord sur l’Espace économique européen, qui assurent un niveau de sécurité équivalent.


Alors quelles sont les exigences ? Elles sont ecrites dans le decret du 7 juin 2004 :
les alarmes doivent être réalisées, construites ou installées de manière que toutes les
commandes d’activation et de désactivation ne doivent pas pouvoir être utilisées par
des enfants de moins de cinq ans. Les systèmes de détection doivent pouvoir
détecter tout franchissement par un enfant de moins de cinq ans et déclencher un
dispositif d’alerte constitué d’une sirène. Ils ne doivent pas se déclencher de façon
intempestive.
 
 
salut je suis la personne du reportage avec l'alarme américaine . je viens de laisser un post "témoignage pozzi" . j'hallucine de voir que certains continuent à propager de fausses infos et entretenir la peur chez le client potentiel qui pourrait vite se transformer en pigeon !!!!! Tout ça sent très fort l'intox après l'arnaque à 400 € de marge !!!!! La loi lisez la !! interrogez des juristes, un avocat, faites donc les recherches que j'ai faites .... NF = recommandation mais pas OBLIGATION !!!!
 
sorry to rain on YOUR parade richard.
 
If you are interested there is a debate on this on capitals forum.
which is where i got the info above.
 
From my experience with an afnor approved product ie aquasensor, its probly the worlds most expensive wind and rain detector. 
 
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just to add.

"We have not tested our alarm to the AFNOR Standard, and we have no plans to do so. Our alarms have been given the notified body number of CE 0359 for CE compliance in all of Europe and meet the ASTM International standard for pool alarms.



Ben Stoner, V.P. of Sales

Poolguard/PBM Industries, Inc.

P.O. Box 658

North Vernon, IN 47265

ph. 800-242-7163

fax 812-346-2650 "

 

If everyone was forced to buy only NF products and risk being fined for having a product with a CE cert then that would be illegal, bit like the beef ban.

My pump doesn't have an NF cert but it has a CE one. ooops my bad. am i breaking the law. NO

 

I've just been on the phone to JR int and they confirmed what Capital said.

So if capital is right then thats going to hit all those dodgy salesman and companies profiting on the whole NF thing.

what is the point in having a CE cert if we can't buy CE cert products or risked being fined for doing so.

at the end of the day i don't really care if capital is right or wrong, i bought my aquawinddetector last year and conform to the NF.

I'm really getting worried now, I just realised most of the electrical products in my house only have a CE stamp, even my laptop only has a CE stamp.

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well, this seems to be a real hornets nest that we're stirring with a stick.

I have talked about this in the past with a french lawyer, whose opinion was that until tested in the courts then only products that had been tested and certified as NF compliant should be used. Indeed he felt that although some companies self certify, they should be avoided and only products that carry an 'attestation de conformite' from an authorised testing facility (Authorised by AFNOR) were truly within the law.

So, personally I am using a product that carries an attestation. Obviously people must follow their own instinct and buy a product that they feel meets their needs. I am of the opinion that the alarms should never have been approved as a sole 'dispositif de securite' they really ought to be used in conjunction with a fence and be seen as a final layer of security. That is how they are used in the States and if you look at the poolguard website, that is what they recommend.

A line that I think is pertinent is the following from Mikeys earlier post:

Parmi les autres moyens, existent notamment les normes, spécifications techniques ou procédés de fabrication en vigueur dans les pays membres de la Communauté européenne ou partie à l’accord sur l’Espace économique européen, qui assurent un niveau de sécurité équivalent.

So perhaps you can used a CE branded product that "Assures an equivalent level of security." I would have thought that the way this will be measured is by referring to the testing regime and the requirements that are specified in the relevant norm. If this is the case then the poolguard alarm will not assure an equivalent level of security because it hasn't been designed to meet these requirements.

Therefore, should you buy a non compliant product and, god forbid, have a fatality in your pool the onus will be on you to prove in court that your choice of product was as effective as the law requires. As I've said before I wouldn't like to be the one doing this.

There is no doubt that the alarms available are being sold at a vast profit and this is outrageous - the poolguard alarm sells for $289 retail in the USA (see www.childsafetystore.com) - so we can see that this should be the correct sort of price for this type of technology, but the companies concerned are unlikely to be shamed into reducing their prices.

To conclude, until this is tested in the courts and precedent set all we have are differing opinions as to the real meaning of the law. Who would like to be the test case?

Richard

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To conclude, until this is tested in the courts and precedent set all we have are differing opinions as to the real meaning of the law.

I'll agree with that. All i was doing was informing about what the programe said.

hopefully the programe will do more research and post the results on their site.

didn't mean to frighten you with the big scary red letters, thats how they were on capitals site.

Now changing the subject, can anyone recommend a good fully automatic pool cleaner please.

 


 

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Yes

We've test most of the brands on the market and have come to the conclusion that the Hayward ( one of the cheapest and american) is probably all that is required and perfectly adequate for the job. The other seem to contribute little more for hundreds perhaps thousands of euro.

I hope that on this at least I can be of help.

Andrew

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Thanks, i was thinking of getting a fully automatic robot but the hayward is a much cheaper option.

I'm fed up hoovering the bottom all the time plus i have to put a stocking over the pre filter on the skimmer cos if i don't most of what i've hoovered comes back into the pool through the jets.

I have a cartridge filter.

 

Many thanks. 

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We have a Dolphin and were told that it memorises our pool and isn't supposed to miss a spot of it. Well, in my opinion, it has a bad memory as now, it seems to like being in one half of the pool and missing a great majority of the rest of the pool. When asked it the memory could be reset, we were told no. I must say that in all the items we have purchased for our pool, this one has been the most disappointing. It is now 3 years old and out of warranty.

So, I can say, don't buy a Dolphin. It cost way too much money and is not worth c***.

Is there a website we can look at the Hayward. And, you say it is American - does that mean it isn't sold here??

Thanks for the info.
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Mickey and Lori

Yes the Hayward is sold here and if you PM your details I'll send information.

Lori's experience is what I meant about the fact that the Hayward being very simple, is adequate.

Getting fancy with a robot: like memorising the pool or self powered, or even being able to pick up a piece of debris the size of a tennis ball, none of this is useful in the long run and those facilities will invariably let you down in our experience.

A robot is a maintenance tool, not a primary cleaner. That is, its meant to keep the pool clean once you have got most of the leaves and muck out yourself with the net. Operate it for a few hours each night should be enough to keep the pool clean, especially if you cover the pool at night. Nearly all of the vacs however, including the Hayward will work on uneven surfaces, sloping surfaces, but some are better than others at vertical surfaces. But the only muck there should be at the water mark from unfiltered oils and suntan lotion and the like. That's a manual thing with a sponge: I'm looking into what else can be done about that to reply to another thread but, in my experience, not much so long as the pool is full of water, (detergents are out of the question).

Again thanks for the question and let me know if I can help.

Andrew

 

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On the pool cleaner question, I have a Tigershark made by Aquavac systems (http://www.aquavacsystems.com/) in the USA. I've had it for four years now and it has been absolutely fantastic. It cleans every last bit of grit and muck out of the pool and as it is electric with its integral filters you don't get the dirt into your main filtration.

You can get them in France for an astronomical sum, I paid 16,000 Francs about £1,600 or you can find them in the states for a lot less. The cheapest I have seen was $800....

You put it in and leave it and it cleans the whole pool thoroughly. It too has a microprocessor and it's supposed to map the pool - in this case it seems to work. At the end of the cycle (about 4-5 hours) you take it out and hose the dirt out of the filters and that's it.

Happy hunting

Richard

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Thanks Mickey and HENDO:

I looked at the two websites Mickey noted. They offer lots of info, however, on the Hayward site, I couldn't seem to find prices. The other website offered extremely attractive prices. I didn't look at all the models, but the two I did look at were under 200 Euros. How can that be, when I had to pay well over 1000 Euros for the crummy Dolphin I have??????

Do these vaccums REALLY work??? I don't know anything technical, so I have to rely on you folks out there to let me know your experiences...

Thanks for that.
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