New Environmental Law will impact heavily on Swimming Pool Owners

[Poolguy]

Here is a

topic which might raise some eyebrows, but it’s a timely warning for those who

have swimming pools.

In

particular those who own or are contemplating ownership of a pool with a

salt/chlorination system.

As many of

you who have read my previous posts know, I have been suggesting for some time

that these systems are not environmentally sound. Its now come to a head with a

piece of legislation which I understand is being drafted at the moment for the

consideration of the French Parliament.

It stems

from a Directive which was passed in the European Parliament some years ago,

which prohibits the discharge of polluted water by domestic as well as

industrial and commercial consumers. Now the French Government, who are

enthusiastic protagonists of Europe are drafting the legislation to bring the

initiative into law in France.

Although I

do not have a copy of the draft  to read

and analyze as yet, I have been told through a reliable source that the thrust

of it will impact heavily on domestic pool owners. Of particular concern will

be those who are discharging salinated water into the storm water systems

through backwashing and annual water changes. This is because this salinated

water ends up in most cases in the fresh water streams and rivers and is creating

havoc with the inland ecosystems by raising salt level.

The habit

of regular doses of 150 kg of salt will soon be a thing of the past as a

consequence. As it is not possible to run a swimming pool without using and

discharging water, and to de-salinate is so costly that it would be

impractical, so there is nowhere for the owner to turn but to discharge in a

clandestine manner, in breach of this law at least once every week. What will

be the consequences and how will it be controlled. I don’t know that at this

time, but I am sure that those who are drafting this law will also include

measures to deal with those issues. Particularly in the light of the lack

luster response by pool owners in France to the security laws, due to become

law on Jan 1, 2006.

I defend

this measure and call it, long overdue. Responsibility for the environment is

something we must all share, and this industry will have to change its

practices to fall in line. We cannot continue to consume at the rate of the

pasts generations with no thought for the consequences and hope to enjoy any

quality of life. Where there is no responsibility shown by consumers in the

face of the facts, then legislation must step in.

So I say

for those who are contemplating the purchase of a swimming pool, think

carefully about what sort of sanitization system you buy. Do not accept the

shrug, or the ‘beouf’ from your Piscinier, or your French neighbor, as if he

does not know about the approach of this law then he should. Choose well for

the future otherwise you might have to change later and the costs will mount

once more.

I will

monitor the progress of this legislation and bring chapter and verse when it

becomes available.

As always,

if anyone want more information then PM me.

 

Andrew

[chirpy]

Not another law to screw the poor pool owners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First we buy a pool and within a year find out new laws will take affect within another 2 years to make the covers,fencing etc redundant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We now buy the compliant alarms or new covers etc. 

In another 2-3 years we drain our salt pool and throw away our chlorinaters etc.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

We all believe the advice when we first buy the pool but now it is becoming a financial nightmare.!!!!!!!!!

WHEN ARE THE POOL INSTALLERS GOING TO TRY AND PROTECT THE CURRENT OWNERS AFTER THEY HAVE ENJOYED GOOD PROFITS FROM US?????????????????

RETROACTIVE PUNISHMENT WENT OUT IN THE LAST CENTURY OR SO I THOUGHT.

WHEN I WAS WORKING IN U.K. I SOLD PAINT BUT SAT ON COMMITTEES TRYING TO PREVENT UNFAIR CHANGES TO STANDARDS .

SUELY THERE IS A POOL INSTALLERS ASSOCIATION WHOSE VOICE SHOULD BE HEARD OR AM I BEING TOO OPTIMISTIC.-----------SUELY EXISTING POOLS COULD BE EXEMPTED FROM HAVING O CHANGE TO SALT FREE SYSTEMS.

IT IS LIKE BEING TAKEN TO THE CLEANERS BY SOME FINANCIAL COMPANIES -AS SOON AS YOUR SIGNATURE IS ON THEIR PAPERS TO BUY AN INVESTMENT  THEY DISAPPEAR INTO THE NIGHT. 

[Benjamin]

The first line of your response says it all in most many people's eyes. Poor and pool owners just don't go together[ip].

 

Benjamin

 

[Apero]

We own a pool and in no way would I be rich. People are free to spend there own money on whatever please's them. Some buy large luxury cars, holiday in expensive locations, drink, camble....could go on....some even have been know to buy a property in France.

Ab was contributing to a post regarding the unexpected change in pool regulations and the impact of these additional costs of implementing new regulations to pool owners, not bragging that he had one. From a viewing point your post looks like sour grapes, or are you a pool owner with a dry scense of humor. Pun intended.[:|]

Ab I have been looking for info re this and shall pm you when found.

Regards to all admin and mods on this informative forum.

Best wishes at Christmas and a prosperous New Year.

[Benjamin]

Ab

Please accept my abject apology for denigrating your posting . Of course I chose to interpret your use of the word poor in a monetary sense and not in the sense of unfortunate as you intended. This was due to my quirky sense of humour which I know some people find difficult to follow.

It's good to know however that you've got a p c rottweiler looking after your interests.

 

Benjamin

p s I do have a pool, 3,5 metre diam, blow up, and a Lambo, scalextrix of course.

[Poolguy]

Ab

I sympathise with your frustration which is clearly put. I share that

frustration for as I tour around the Pisciniers in France, I find that there is

little or no understand of the principals of pools in residence. Moreover there

is little or no inclination to become informed. It seems to be an industry

largely unregulated in this otherwise over-regulated society. There is next to

no expertise in evidence wherever I go, it seems to be regarded as ‘easy

money’, after all it’s a hole in the ground with water in it

Customers are regarded as 'onetime sales', and hence there is little or no

attention paid to clients after the final cheque has been cashed. This would be

unacceptable in other countries but it seems to be the norm in France. As I

have mentioned on previous threads over half of my business is cleaning up the

mistakes, shoddy work, and down right bad advice from Pisciniers..

What is needed is an 'artisan' status for Piscinier and an Association to

ratify their standards, these are very active and very effective in other

countries. With such a united voice, there is some chance to lobby government

for change for the better. Without such an Association there is no chance what

ever as the industry is too small for the government to get excited about its

concerns.

Whereas, notwithstanding the above paragraph, you were reacting to the

introduction of a law to prohibit the discharge of polluted water and

complaining that the 'industry' should have lobbied to prevent it. Well I have

to point out that even with the most veracious unionised, well organised

pressure group there would not be a hope of diverting this one. Its a European

directive, which is as much to do with the getting manufacturing industry and

power generation to clean up its act as it is for everything else. It just so

happens that swimming pool owners are contributing to the problem and therefore

are now under the same microscope. That being the case it is inconsistent with

the process of draft legislation for one area, group or interest, to be

excluded from a general principle of law. So where the goose and gander get it

in the neck the same way so to will swimming pool owners have to face the 'hit'

if it can be shown that any individual was a 'polluter'- and salt is a

particularly nasty pollutant, it makes lush countrysides into deserts.

Also I would not expect this to be a mere slap on the wrist, with a wink and a

'mind yourself now' at the end. It will be savage for those who flout the law

to the cost of the environment and collective enjoyment of the rivers and lakes

in good condition. So I would be advising people to be very cautious with salt

systems and to think of how they might be able to manage outage water without

introduction to storm water or water courses.

Of course one alternative is to switch to chlorine direct injection which is

environmentally acceptable.

Andrew

[chirpy]

Can chlorine direct injection be put into a salt pool without draining it and refilling?

What is ballpark cost? without advertising in case admin. stops reply.

In my case I had a pool where water had to be brought in from a mile away taking a week to fill - I hired two plastic pools as  I only had a well supply which could not fill pool quickly when liner installed.

Most pool owners are not rich but decide to have the  benefit of a pool for family visits as I am retired here without any home in u.k. and have small pension.

In hindsight I would not have  installed a pool if I knew the problems it was to give me .-e.g.-

pool cost                                    =34000 euro.

covers                                          =4600euro

bubble cover                                =640   euro

                                   total          =39240 euro(£27000.!!!)

and within 3 years all covers are obsolete=5240 euro(£3600 down the drain!!!!!!!!!!)

PERHAPS IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ROUND UP THE GOOD GUYS WHO INSTALL POOLS AND SEE IF YOU CAN GET ADVANCE NOTICE HOW DO WE ESTABLISH WHETHER THE SMALL AMOUNT  OF SALT WATER PUMPED OUT A FEW TIMES A YEAR IS POLLUTING OUR OWN LAND OR ENTERING GROUND BEDS TO EFFECT A NOTICEABLE CHANGE TO THE WATER..

PERHAPS THE PRODUCTION OF ELECTRICITY BY NUCLEAR MEANS IS A FAR GREATER THREAT IN FRANCE BEING THE MAIN PRODUCTION METHOD AND WILL HAVE A GREATER AFFECT ON THE  LIVING AND FUTURE GENERATIONS.!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

[Apero]

[quote user="Benjamin"]Ab Please accept my abject apology for denigrating your posting . Of course I chose to interpret your use of the word poor in a monetary sense and not in the sense of unfortunate as you intended. This was due to my quirky sense of humour which I know some people find difficult to follow.[/quote]

 

http://www.albion.com/netiquette/corerules.html

Benjamin

You may or may not find the above site useful.[^o)]

Poolguy

Thanks for the post. Appreciate you taking the time.  

[Suze01]

I flunked chemistry at school so I may be wrong....

Salt is a natural product, albeit not found in freshwater  rivers, but chlorine is a manmade compound AFAIK not found naturally.  If 'they' are worried about salt being discharged into the environment then what about all the chemicals from traditionally chlorinated pools? Surely they've got it the wrong way around or am I having one of those blonde moments [*-)]

[chirpy]

thankyou ASPERO-I also have a strange sense of humour -it is never understood at home .

perhaps i will have a water-free pool which will need no maintenance,no laws to meet,until the rain fills it up again and i go round the merrygoround again.CATCH 22 PERHAPS IF I BURY IT I WILL HAVE NO MORE PROBLEMS.MAKE A GOOD LEEK GARDEN OR PRIVATE  CEMETARY.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bloody clever pool regulations -they have you by the xmas b**** -best form of french taxation and keeping some people employed..--just like speed cameras.now that's a touchy subject

WELL MERRY XMAS TO ALL YOU READERS AND SUBSCRIBERS -.-HOPE NOBODY GIVES YOU A XMAS BOX LIKE A CEMENT ONE ---------------

 

IN OTHERWORDS A POOL.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

AU-REVOIR OFF TO DROWN (NOPUN INTENDED) MY SORROWS IN A FEW XMAS DRINKS.

[Quillan]

I mentined this topic to a friend of mine who has just had a pool installed this year. He said that he already knew and was told that this is actual law that was already in effect and that he could not put water from the pool in to the mains sewage (drains). Ironically enough the installers created a soak-away behind the pool shed, or whatever it's called and thats where it goes. Won't be an issue for me as I have no intention (being poor [joke couldn't resist - sorry]) of having a pool, to much work for such little fun. My hot tub is all I need. It will be installed in a tub room in my woods, I can open my tub house windows, watch the birds eat from the feeders suspended from the roof, a nice book and my G&T with I&L and NO CHILDREN OR WOMEN ALLOWED. I've told 'her' that she can use it between 02:00 and 04:00 in any month with only 26 days, she's still trying to work that one out. Mind you she still can't find the month with a Z in it and thats when I do the housework.

I shall go back upstairs for a refill now and see if the TV is still broadcasting cr@p, Christmas eve and look at the TV programs, rubbish!

[Poolguy]

Ab

The answer

to your question is that; Yes you can choose what ever sanitisation

system you

want at any time -the only difference is the cost. In your case where

there is

water in the pool and equipment already commissioned then it will be a

job of work to do the change to install a pool controller which will

run your sanitisation on direct

injection Chlorine and pH. You will have to change the entire pool

water and flush the salt - where I don;t know.  However the good

news is that the cost is actually cheaper to

install and operate Chlorine direct system than with a salt system by

about

half for equivalent technology.

Adding to

the benefits I have posted before such as Automation, constant monitoring and

management, Minimum and constant attention to chlorine & pH levels no

matter the load, and so forth, you can now add the advantage of avoiding any

repercussions from the law which will effectively prevent others from

discharging salty, backwash water.

Those who own salt

pools that are worried that they

are being penalised for using what they call a ‘natural product’(salt).

Can I

just explain this a little more so that its clear as I don’t think that

there

has been a lot of honesty in the Pool industry where these systems are

sold at a  high price without much in the way of explaination or

backup service. Some are being sold without a pH controller which I

have to say is quite rediculous as, the first requisit in any

pool  is to have the correct pH at 7.2 or there abouts at all

times.

Yes Salt is

naturally occurring, our bodies are 3% salt- we cannot live without it; and ¾

of the earths surface is covered with salt water at a concentration level of

35,000ppm and higher, roughly 2.6% by weight. 

Whereas a salt pool is not near this in its concentration, it varies

between 3,500 – 6,000ppm or 0.3% by weight. Nevertheless, in the natural

environment 10 litres of waist pool water will do the same harm as 1 litre of

sea water. Now, as any gardener will verify, you will soon preside over a

desert if you commence irrigating your garden with sea water. It’s the same

result exactly with pool water from a salt system, but it takes a little

longer. It is also the same for a fresh water stream where an introduction of

salt will steadily build up and eventually, it will become an aquatic desert

where none but salt tolerant algae can live in what might have been a lush

fresh water stream teaming with fish and aquatic plants. Its a high price to

pay for a few people’s pleasure, especially where there is an alternative which

is not only acceptable environmentally but also offers substantial advantages

and is cheaper to run.

If you are

trying to avoid the problem of discharging salt by using a soak away as has

been suggested, this will avoid the rath of the law, but your property will

bear the brunt of the concentration of salt within the ground., which will kill

every living thing as it gets high enough. That area of garden will be unable

to support anything but the most vigorous salt tolerant plant of which there

are few. The only solution I can suggest which overcomes these problems is an

evaporation pond, where waist water is deposited and the sun evaporates off the

water leaving the salt as a crystalline deposit. This you might be able to

recoup and dispose of in some other way. Perhaps it could be sent back to the

sea where it originated. So long as it is kept away from the fresh water

environment

The larger thrust

of this argument is that less than one percent of the water on the planet is

available for drinking. It behoves us all of use to, first recognise the issue

and then to do what we can to avoid making inroads into that number by turning

50-100,000 litres and more of fresh water into unusable, undrinkable salt

water. On the scale of France that equals a possible total of  120,000 (mega)hectare litres which in these

times of water shortage is too much to loose. 

Not wanting to be too dramatic, but I can foresee that in the not too

distant future, wars will be fought not about oil as they are today but about

water- Israel v Palestine to start with.

Now a

little about the alternative. Sodium Hypochloride (chlorine- made from salt)has

been known and used for cleaning for more than 2 centuries. It’s the same

refined substance used to sanitise pool water in Salt systems and Chlorine

direct systems. So if someone claims to be sensitive to chlorine, then choosing

a salt system is not any different end point and will not provide any advantage

or relief whatsoever. What is different about ‘chlorine direct’ systems is that

the concentration of 1.5 ppm (as opposed to 3,5000ppm salt) of solids in the

water is so low that there is no possibility that any organism bigger than a

microbe which will be effected. Moreover, Chlorine is very unstable and will

denature in about 2 days unless it is ‘stabilised’ with cyanuric acid. This substance

is present in the gallets and granules you buy from the supermarket but it is

not present and is unnecessary in ‘chlorine direct’ systems. This cynuric acid is another

pollutant which can be avoided, as is flocculent, hivernage, and antialgae as

none of these additives are necessary if your santisation system is effective

and operating properly. Hence with none of these extras and such a low

concentration, the discharge from a ‘chlorine direct’ system will be completely

benign to the environment; such that 1 litre of seawater equals 10 litres of

Salt system backwash water equals 23,000 litres of ‘chlorine direct’ water. Put

another way, there will be roughly the same environmentally harmful, suspended

solids in 3 litres of sea water than your entire pool with ‘chlorine direct’system.

Moreover,

with a good filtration medium which extracts impurities down to one micron, the

requirements for chlorine can be further reduced and so the water in your

swimming pool approaches a point which is as close as you can get to

‘absolutely pure’. I am not talking about the level of distilled water as that

is unrealistic but  as it comes from the

tap. With this regime, those who are sensitive for some reason will be

guaranteed of no more irritation in the pool, than they get in their shower.

Children will not get sick or sore eyes from pH out of balance and commercial

pool operators can be sure that there will be no claims from clients who

contract infections, as it can be shown that the pool or spa (for once) cannot

be the culprit. It is not only approved by DDASS (Dept of Health) but its a

requirement for use in commercial pools.

 

I hope that

this has been helpful.

 

Andrew

[Will Witt]

I do have reservations about salt water chlorination but pumping out a

few hundred litres of  back wash water onto a lawn for instance is

not one of them - having said that no pool backwash water should be

allowed to get into water-courses for obvious reasons.

The salt concentration in salt water chlorination is about one tenth

of  sea-water and there are places in the world where crops are

regularly irrigated by waste water that has higher levels of salinity

than this. The point is that all plants and crops vary in their

resistance to salinity. In France where we have a quite high rainfall

the salinity also gets washed away every times that it rains and so

there is a constant natural dilution process at work. So if you pump

your backwash water out onto your lawn your grass may go a bit brown

for a while but you will not create a desert in your back garden!!!

What

is the advantage of salt water chlorination - In saltwater pools there

is 0.5 to 1.0 ppm chlorine and in traditional pools there is 3.0 - 10.0

ppm chlorine - if someone is very sensitive to chlorine then this could

make a big difference to their enjoyment of their swimming pool.

What are the disadvantages?

• It is more expensive to install - but cheaper to run
• In hard water areas like Charente-Maritime and the Dordogne the very
  hard water causes scale deposits to form on the electrodes. The cell
  then needs to be taken apart and the electrodes cleaned off with an
  appropriate acidic cleaner. This can even happen every month or so if
  the pH control is not rigorous.

If you want to read more about salt water chlorination please look at

my blog of December 30th here 

http://www.bluepools.typepad.com/bluepools/

[Poolguy]

 

Will

As another

Pool professional I welcome your input to this debate.

However, I

am puzzled by some of your assertions though, whereas you agree that swimming

pool waste water in general is harmful for the environment but you are not

convinced that there is sufficient harm to avoid using it on your garden. Why

not can I ask?

Also you

say that ‘there are places in the world which water their crops regularly with

waste water which is saltier that pool water’; well can I ask do their crop

flourish or struggle, where are these places. I only ask as I cannot think of

any so I had to ask around. I asked an Academic from the University of the

Negev in Israel, Yossi Ben Dov and he was sure that plants (not crops) could be

grown under salted water irrigation but that the necessity for fresh water

‘wash down’ was mandatory after each ‘dose’ of salted water. Yossi is an

internationally recognise expert on salt water irrigation, my brother visited

him whilst on a tour of significant sites for His masters in Landscape

Architecture thesis on Dry lands botanic gardens. My Brother is also clear that

whilst some species do tolerate salt more than others, the ones which do are

not very attractive, nor very nutritious and would certainly not be native of

France, especially common grasses. Of those which do, I understand that stock

will not graze the course grasses which will grow in sand dunes for example.

I see that

you are resident in Charante Martime where this year a drought has limited

watering of gardens with the hose to a minimum if not nil. I really can’t see

then how there can be any ‘washing away’ as you put of salts deposited from a

swimming pool outwash. Moreover, I am reliable informed by Ben-Dov et. al. that

salts do not wash away but rather decent into the ground water or, failing that

descend to a point and from there build up to again reach the surface. This is

the primary cause of the desert advancing at more than 1 km per year in

Australia- I am sure that you would find no support for your ideas in that

country. As for spreading salt water onto to lawn – I think the expression

accords with the acronym NIMBY.

Yet still, I

cannot fathom you last paragraph as Salt/chlorine pools require the exact same

chlorine levels as Chorine Direct Pools to do the same work. I would have

thought 1ppm up to 2ppm would be a good average. I do not know of anyone in the

industry to operates or recommends that pool owners maintain levels of up to

10ppm of Chorine. As anything more than 4ppm would be regarded as Choc treatment

which is only used (rarely) when serious contamination strikes but is certainly

not the norm and absolutely not for swimming. These figures are from

recommendations from the DDASS(dept Health) and are in use in Commercial and

domestic pools throughout most of France.

I find that

I agree with you that salt chlorinators are more expensive to install but are

only cheaper in comparison to manual dosing which is an unfair comparison, as

with that method the pool owner is nearly 4000 euro better off not buying a

salt chlorinator which pays a lot of manual doses. Chlorine direct I think

you’ll find is the same or a bit cheaper to run per year at about 80euros and

about half the cost to install.

If I have

misinterpreted you comments then I should be pleased to reconsider them under

your illumination but at the moment I can find little to support at this time.

 

Andrew

[Poolguy]

Will

We not heard from you on this issue.

I was hopping that there would be something more you could add to clarify your

position.

Certainly after reading your Blog we have a lot to discuss. Particularly your

position with respect to double bubble pools, as I think you have been vastly misinformed

about their construction, their advantages and the use to which the many owners

avail of this type of pool.

Andrew

[The Riff-Raff Element]

I generally agree with quite a lot of what you post, particularly

regarding pool safety. However, having read through your posts on this subject, there are a few things I would take issue with.

"The larger thrust

of this argument is that less than one percent of the water on the planet is

available for drinking. It behoves us all of use to, first recognise the issue

and then to do what we can to avoid making inroads into that number by turning

50-100,000 litres and more of fresh water into unusable, undrinkable salt

water. On the scale of France that equals a possible total of  120,000 (mega)hectare litres which in these

times of water shortage is too much to loose."

This is frankly an erroroneous assertation.

"Fresh" water naturally has a salt (as sodium chloride) content of

between 0 (rain water, for example) and 600ppm, so simply adding salt

does not automatically render water unusable. Compared to the amount of

salt spread on the roads in France each winter (hundreds of thousands

of tonnes: which ends up in water courses, remember), the amount

discharged from pools is unlikely to have a significant impact on

overall water quality.

"Now, as any gardener will verify, you will soon preside over a

desert if you commence irrigating your garden with sea water It’s the same

result exactly with pool water from a salt system, but it takes a little

longer."

But you wouldn't be watering with sea

water. Pool water is an order of magnitude less saline. While I would

not advocate watering the lawn with saline pool water,  this

is not a fair comparison. Most food plants will tolerate over 1000 ppm

salt in soil and some (tomatoes and potatoes, for example) will

tolerate over 6000 ppm. Not that levels often get that high.

"It is also the same for a fresh water stream where an introduction of

salt will steadily build up and eventually, it will become an aquatic desert

where none but salt tolerant algae can live in what might have been a lush

fresh water stream teaming with fish and aquatic plants"

Salt is souble. It wouldn't build up in a

steam. It would be washed away. This is how salt (from mineral deposits

and other sources - like road salting) gets into the sea in the first

place.

"If you are

trying to avoid the problem of discharging salt by using a soak away as has

been suggested, this will avoid the rath of the law, but your property will

bear the brunt of the concentration of salt within the ground., which will kill

every living thing as it gets high enough."

Actually, a properly constructed soak away

is an ideal way of disposing of water from saline pools. It places

salty water well away from plant roots where it could arguably do

damage and it will not build up: it will be washed away by the passage

of rain waters, along with all the our salt that re-enters the

environment from human activity: urination, for example, contributes

about 3.5 kg per person, per year, or 210,000 tonnes for France as a

whole.

"Now a

little about the alternative. Sodium Hypochloride (chlorine - made from salt)has

been known and used for cleaning for more than 2 centuries. It’s the same

refined substance used to sanitise pool water in Salt systems and Chlorine

direct systems."

Sodium hypochlorite is

not some benign organic extract: it is bleach. Household bleach is one

thing, but in the concentrations in which it is supplied for chlorine

direct systems , and speaking as a chemist, I would frankly be unhappy

to see it stored anywhere that was not displaying a "hazchem" notice.

This is a nasty chemical. The production of hypochlorite from salt is

via a process that uses large quantities of mercury. Though the idea is

that none of this unspeakably vile metal should be lost, the fact

remains that hypochlorite production is not inherently an

environmentally desirable activity.

"So if someone claims to be sensitive to chlorine, then choosing

a salt system is not any different end point and will not provide any advantage

or relief whatsoever. What is different about ‘chlorine direct’ systems is that

the concentration of 1.5 ppm (as opposed to 3,5000ppm salt) of solids in the

water is so low that there is no possibility that any organism bigger than a

microbe which will be effected."

The amount of active

chlorine in salt systems is pretty much the same as this - a few ppm.

The mention of 3500 ppm salt is irrelevent.

 "Moreover, Chlorine is very unstable and will

denature in about 2 days unless it is ‘stabilised’ with cyanuric acid. This substance

is present in the gallets and granules you buy from the supermarket but it is

not present and is unnecessary in ‘chlorine direct’ systems."

Nor is it used in saline systems, which produce a constant supply of chlorine via electrolysis.

Arguing the case for

chlorine direct systems on the basis of cost and convenience is one

thing, but extending the arguement to include environmental benefit is

not, as I see it, justified.

[Will Witt]

I think the post by jond neatly sums up the situation - and we only

charge 1000 - 2000 euros for salt water chlorination systems in a new

pool - certainly not 4000!

[Poolguy]

 

Jond

 

Thank you

for your considered contribution to this topic. Your professional expertise is

welcome as it was last time we dealt with this topic last year. We still seem

to be viewing the topic from different sides of the chasm however.

 

This time

there is a specific reason for the post rather than just an exploration of the

richness of the topic – that is, that the law will now prohibit the ‘dumping’

of ‘polluted’ water.  Now, I am saying

that this has impacts for swimming pool owners, I am not able to deal with the

broader concepts of salt on the roads or salt content in urine entering the

sewage system. That is too broad for this thread, this law does not deal with

salt parse but is confined to water. I guess that the thrust of this law is

trying to limit the impact on the streams and rivers from the introduction of

salt as a pollutant in large quantities. The law may be extended to include the

other areas where salt exists but that is up to our legislators in Europe and

Regional governments. This law I am saying should be of specific concern for

people who are purchasing swimming pools to be advised, be prepared and be

informed of their options.

 

Presently,

I have been advised by several Pool owners that Prefectures were insisting on

separate Fosse and evaporation pits for swimming pool backwash for new pool

installations. This is a sign of things to come, I believe and is stark

testament to the topic no matter whether it bears comparative investigation

with other issues. Clearly, pool owners will pay a higher price for salt water,

chlorination systems; higher price in terms of the purchase cost for both

equipment and installations, and higher maintenance cost as the environmental

restriction grow more harsh.

 

This year,

like the last will see ‘Red’ water restrictions over most of Western and

Southern France by all indications. The Regions have enforcement strategies in

place from last year and will no doubt be looking to increasing their effectiveness

this year. This is bad new for Farmers and could start to impact on private

water users, particularly pool owners who are particularly high users. It means

that the levels of water in streams, dams, lakes and the water table in general

is dangerously low and the Government is moving to protect the integrity of

supplies against contamination. Hence the fuss about not dumping polluted

water.

 

Your advise

that most all domestic water supplies contain a level of ‘salts’ has been

confirmed by official sources but not in the concentration you mention.

Domestic water in Israel for example would contain no more than 400ppm and

France half that according to Professor Silburbeush, Dean of the Department of

Water Resources in University of Negev. The Professor goes on to say that any

amount of salt in the soil is not a problem as such. It is only toxic to plants

once it goes into solution and is absorbed by the roots. In his opinion

sensitive plants could only tolerate about 1200 ppm, moderate plants including

those consumed by humans and bovines about double that- above these level would

be considered to be toxic to plants. He is certainly interested in your

assertions that there is successful cropping where regimes of 6000ppm are

extant as he does not know of any and they have been trying to achieve this for

25 years. Could you be kind enough to be specific as to where these trials are

going on.

 

Sodium

Hypochloride is Bleach – well yes, everybody knows that. Its called Eau de

Javel in France, everybody knows that too. Its been known for more than 150

years, as has its effects and its usefulness. Its used in countless industries

and is far less harmful broadly speaking than many other more modern chemicals

such as Hydrogen Peroxide known in the swimming pool market as ‘Oxygen active’,

much more aggressive and even explosive as evidenced that (I understand) it was

the major component in the London underground bombings. I cannot fathom your

outrage over the use of chlorine in a swimming pool. Its available on the supermarket

shelves in concentrations of between 2.5% up to 9.6% for use in the home –

every housewife would be used to using it and the precautions for doing so. Its

the same 9.6% that is used in a swimming pool, chlorine direct method producing

1.5 ppm in the water its is harmless to any organism bigger than a bug. Its

also negates the need to use much harsher chemicals as Anitalgea (some of which

contains copper, which causes damage to brain and nervous systems), Winterising

solution -Benzilammoniate (not in my pool), flocculent and cyanuric acid. You

are aware that EVERY container which contains any sanitisation solution for

water is emblazed with logos citing ‘Hazardous to the Environment’, ‘Poison’,

which it is in its concentrated form. This is normal and I cannot wonder why

it’s a new issue worthy of comment. I know that you will argue that a bag of

salt does not have this labling, but the subject of this thread is interested

in the consequences further down the line.

 

Having

checked with my supplier of Javel, he confirms that his (patented) fabrication

method contains NO mercury – its forbidden in Europe since before 2005 to sell

any product with any mercury content.

 

 I can see no evidence from your post that the

use of 100 liters of Javel in a pool per year (at a cost of about €80) is in

any way worse than dumping 400-600 kg of salt, at least 50% of which will end

up being dumped into the storm water system or the subsoil. I am still of the

opinion that the former method is a order of magnitude better both from the

point of view of pool maintenance and from the point of care for the

environment. I am sure that the law as it is being frame at present will soon

make it necessary to choose very carefully between these options.

 

Andrew

 

Will

In my

catalogue of leading brand of equipments. A Salt chlorinator producing an

average 20 mlg per hour will cost €1650 HT, add to that a pH controller at

€1200 HT with installation  is €3700TTC.

A chlorine direct system is still half of that.

 

[YCCMB]

I've found this thread very interesting and informative, and thanks to you all for your comments and for the valuable information provided. I'm very curious about one thing: Having had a pool with a salt water chlorination system for around 3 years (installed from new) I don't think, other than at commissioning, we've ever had to add more than a couple of bags of salt per year. The pool's fine, pH levels perfectly OK and, apart from being in C-M where the water itself remains a problem, it's been no trouble and practically maintenance-free. So I am confused and a bit surprised to read that I'm supposed to be "dumping" 4-600Kg of salt into my pool on an annual basis. How? When? Why? [8-)]

[Poolguy]

Croixblanches

Thanks for the post on this subject  Perhaps you have shown in this sentence

where I am guilty of being a flippant on that subject.

To be more precise the amount of salt you should add to your pool on a yearly

basis depends on many things. Firstly the volume of water in the pool is the

most obvious, the larger the pool the more salt. Secondly, All electrolysers

are not the same, some look for 3,500 ppm and some up to 6000ppm, it depends on

their output. Some produce barely 10mlgms of chlorine per hour others will

produce 20, 30 or even 50 mlgrms/hour. They all have their own specification

which you will find in your manual and can only be determined by testing the

salt levels with a strip tester or the like.

So my line to 'dump 4-600kg of salt in per year' is a bit flippant I must

admit, but (in my defence) it was crafted in the heady atmosphere of not quite adversarial

debate. The correct figure for this sentence is unknown I suspect, as I cannot

find a methodology to determine what might be the specification of an 'average'

salt pool. Certainly, the most popular electrolyser seems to yield about 15

mlgms/ hr but even that might be subject to variation regionally and bears no

clue to the volume of pool it will service.

So my apologies for over stepping the boundaries of verifiable disclosure. I

shall certainly be more careful as we move forward and explore this topic

variously.

Andrew

[YCCMB]

Well, to say I'm relieved is an understatement!! Must admit, though, it puts a very different complexion on the relative "toxicity" of the water in question as I, for one, would be horrified to think of water (and our pool's not THAT big) containing such a huge volume of salt being dumped out and polluting the environment, whereas I'm having a lot more trouble understanding how the small amounts we're using can have a detrimental effect.

Anyway Andrew, thanks for "owning up"[;)] - it's put my mind at rest over one thing, even though maybe not over the whole question. Pity, really, as we're more than happy with our system and, expense aside, would  be loathe to change.

[Nickp]

[catherined]

I'll introduce myself before I jump in here.

We bough a property in teh Dordogne 3 years ago, and to afford it we let it out in Summer. We installed a salt pool and an automatic ph etc to make it easy to handle for tenants and for whoever is looking after the pool for us.

After a few problems last year I was doing some research on the web and found the following

http://www.cleanerpools.net/slimebag.html   (Mods this is not advertising- I have tried to buy one of these on line but you have to jump through so many hoops to get it sent to Europe that I gave up!)

It seems to be a solution to sending disposing of backwash water (although we have a cartridge filter and I was looking at it more as a way of improving the quality of the water and increasing the life of my filter.)

I'd value your opinion and if you think it's a good idea I might try harder to get hold of one. (or maybe some enterprising pool supplier in Europe will look for a dealership in them!)

 

[Johnb]

All this is very interesting, as we are having a salt pool installed as I write and no, we haven't been warned of any impending legislation either by the installer or our local mairie.

It raises all sorts of questions: for example, there is little if any trace of damage from the extensive use of rock salt on roads. Is this to be banned also? We then have, Europe-wide, water softeners, dish-washers etc. Are these to be banned also? Most houses in France, including ours, have a dish-washer, used daily, and I'm fairly sure they and I will deposit a lot more salt via dish-washers than I and others will with a pool. Most houses (flats?) in France still don't have a pool, and most never will.

Has there been any discussion on 'watering' gardens with bleach water, vis-a-vis those on watering with salt water posted earlier?

Are we into more ill-thought-out knee-jerk legislation similar to pool security, which has attracted more ridicule than respect?

JohnB

[JohnandCaroline]

Hello Pool Guy,

My wife and I are hoping to move to France as soon as we can sell up in England.  We may need to install a pool as we wish to run either a gite complex or a chambre d'hote.

I have been reading up about pool treatment methods and the environmental impact of the salt/chlorine systems.  I have also been reading American and Australian sites which appear to be offering natural water pools without salt or chlorine.  These seem to offer a far better solution but I have read a couple of threads suggesting that these are not acceptable to the French health authorities, and I haven't seen any such systems on French web sites.  Perhaps you would no if there is any likelihood of some changes in this direction.

Also I am trying to put together some budgets for a swimming pool say 15 x 10 with adequate security and wonder what sort of ball park figure I need to provide.  I know its a bit of how long is a piece of string, but I don't want the finest pool in France neither do I want the cheapest rubbish on the market that will give endless problems.

Any advice would be welcome.

We are currently favouring the northern Medoc region but things can change.

John