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Salt water pool


ColinE
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Hi

Could I ask Poolguy for some advice.

Can you tell me the Pros and Cons of a salt water pool, we are going to look at a house north of Bergerac in the next couple of weeks, it has this type of pool installed, the only time I have ever come across this type of pool was in Australia at a house my brother owned.

Is it good or bad, what about costs as against a normal pool?

Thanks   Colin

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Colin,

No doubt Poolguy will be along shortly, he is not a fan of salt water pools, and I will let him explain that himself.

I have owned and run a salt water pool since 2004.

These are my own opinions and experiences.

There are a lot of salt water pool owners who are satisfied with the product.

But in my opinion mine has been more tempermental than a conventional chlorine pool.

There is a popular misconception that salt water pools are almost automatic and look after themselves, well I do not concur with that.

There are so many factors with the salt water production of chlorine. The generator seems to have a mind of its own, giving a different reading almost every day,and gettng the level spot on is very difficult, I test my pool at least once a day, not just free chlorine, ph, salt content, Total Alkaninity, temp etc all factors in keepng the pool balanced.

Do not under estmate how much salt you need to add to keep the levels up, not enough salt means not enough chlorine production, also I keep my flitration on for a least 14 hours during the season as one has to circulate the water a lot to get the chlorine into the system.

Filtration medium is also important, this year I changed to zelitezeleau instead of sand, not cheap but has made a big difference, although you cannot use a flocculant with this medium, poolguy supplied and fitted mine.

So given the choice would I go for a salt water pool again, the simple answer is no, but then with hindsight, if I knew then what I now know about pools I would go for an automatic liquid chlorine doser, I already have a liquid ph minus doser.

There is also anoher misconnception that salt water pools are better, purer and kinder on the bather and the enviroment, well they still produce chlorine, just in a different way, and getting rid of waste salt water into the water table is another issue.

Hope this helps, I am no expert, just someone who has learned the hard way, as most of us pool owners do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi JJ

Thanks for your imput, what I read up about salt pools on this forum,  a lot from poolguy, which I am concerned about, I read there was going to be some law on discharging salt water to fosse/drains etc, the write up was dated 2004, did this law come into force, if so, how do you cope with this problem.

This has all come about for me as I am going to look at a house that has a salt pool installed, so I am just trying to do some homework before seeing the house.

If the salt pool is a problem, would it take much to change it to a normal pool?

Thanks  Colin

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I'd also be interested in any feedback with reference to converting an existing saltwater pool to a "normal" one.

We inherited an Everblue 11m x 5m saltwater pool when we purchased our property.  We ran the pool all last year (and very nice it was, too!).  But it is a pain in the butt trying to get the various levels constant and keep them there.  Also, I suspect the chlorinator unit is faulty, and will cost at least 1200 Euros to replace.  Then there's the lugging around of bags of salt, and of course (as already mentioned) the potential illegality of dumping salt water.  I am happy with the Diatomee filter, so hopefully wouldn't have to change that.

So if you're around, Poolguy, what's involved, and the possible costs ? - it would be good to know before I go out and by a new chlorinator...

Chris

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Colin,

I am not sure if the legislation came in or not, I am sure PoolGuy will be able to tell us.

Getting rid of waste water, well like most of us I end up discharging it into a soak away, which is not ideal.

As far as changing to a conventional pool, not too complcated as far as I am aware you may need to change the water, but not too sure. The salt will eventually dissapate with evaporation etc.

When my salt water generator is not working I oten top up with chlorine tabs and eau de javel (bleach) which is the same as liquid chlorine, but a lot cheaper than expensive poolshop products.

Hope this helps.

I am surprised there have not been replies from salt water pool owners defending them?

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[quote user="JJ"]

I am surprised there have not been replies from salt water pool owners defending them?

[/quote]

When we replaced our ancient pool three years ago we changed to a salt water pool.

I have had no problems with it and have been very happy with it's operation.  I have not had to 'lug around' any sacks of salt yet as the salt level has not changed.  Even when I do need to it will only be one or two sacks per year. The reglation of the chlorinator only needs adjusting as the temperature of the water has risen or fallen.  We initially had problems with the cell furring up with limescale after filling the pool for the first time but that sorted itself out within a few months.  Having had both a traditional chlorine pool previously and now a salt pool, I can say that I much prefer swimming in a salt pool.  The chorine that is produced from the salt if far less aggressive on the eyes and skin that chorine tablets/galets and there is very little odour.

Long term the cell will need replacing and that is rather expensive, but then I haven't been having to buy tubs of galets which are also fairly expensve - I don't know what the like-for-like comparison would be between the life of a cell vs the cost of the galets.

I'm pro salt pools and would install one again.

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I bought in 2002 and as Lisleoise find it gives no eye problems and i have very sensitive eyes.

The weekly or so checks of ph and chlorine are simple tasks with ph+ or ph_ added as required. 

 The electolyser should be cleaned 1-2 times per year to dissolve build up of scale or  white deposits from the water-again a 10minute immersion in weak acid..

Salt levels checks about quarterly  and salt added from 28kilo.bags necessary as this is what is converted by the electroyser to make chlorine.I guess I use 4-5 bags a year in 65 cubic metre of water i.e. a  pool-10x4.5 metrex1-2 metre depth.

BACKWASH  a little water to clean sand filter each month AND hoover as required i.e. if lots of wind blown dirt/dust/leaves.

To date no health problems .

Equipment needed a pump replacing after 3 years.

W[:D]ished i had the money to give a cover for prolonging season but did have water heater installed using ambient air through heat exchanger-like a refridgerater inreverse.

 

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Hi,

Our experience is just the same as Lileloise.

The whole thing works automatically, uses little acid, say 4 bags of salt per year to replace water flushed out when cleaning the filter.

The electrolyser needs to be turned up in hotter weather and is self cleaning (reverses polarity each time it starts). It did scale up badly when we firts installed it, we thought we had insufficient salt, but the problem was overcome once we turned the pump off and the electrolyser cell itself cleaned the scale off.

SE wind brings dust which produces algae sometimes: we kill it with Chlorochoc and pump/flush/sweep for a day or two.

PAC gives the temperature a boost at the beginning and end of the season, and electric volet keeps heat in and kids out.

Robot cleans the bottom/sides and margins every couple of days.

We like the pool:  no smell, no bleached cozzies, no goggles, no skin problems and practically no intervention from us.

Hope this helps

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Misconception, salt water pools still produce chlorine, otherwise the pool would not be sanitised.

If people are getting stinging eyes, skin probems and bleached cossies it is nothing to do with what type of system, it is just too much chlorine in whatever form, this is poor pool management, regular testing and keeping a close eye on the levels is the proper way to eep a balanced healthy pool.

And please forget test drops and strips, they are a waste of time and money, there are much better pieces of testing equipment available now.

I am amazed that some people only check their levels once a week.

A day is a very long time for a pool, let alone week.

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[quote user="JJ"]

Misconception, salt water pools still produce chlorine, otherwise the pool would not be sanitised.

[/quote]

Re-read my post:

[quote user="Lisleoise"]....The chorine that is produced from the salt if far less aggressive on

the eyes and skin that chorine tablets/galets and there is very little

odour.[/quote]

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No misconception at all,  the electrolyser does indeed produce chlorine which kills bacteria, but this happens in the electrolyser, and  not in the pool. The electrolyser breaks NaCl molecules down into Cl ions, these attach to bacteria and kill them. As soon as the ions leave the electrolyser, they recombine to make NaCl (salt) again.

See   http://piscinekitdirect.fr/catalogNEW/product_info.php?products_id=398&osCsid=bc0e8c18f8c3b6cddc98db47e6b7   which explains it simply.

or to quote:

"L'électrolyse s'effectue dans une cellule inserée sur le circuit de

filtration. La solution d'eau salée se décompose et purifie l'eau en

d'étruisant les algues et les bacteries, puis se recompose pour

reformer le sel."

That's it, accept facts or not, I do not mind, but I am now gone from here.

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I have a salt water electrolyser (aka chlorinator) and have been very happy with it (most of the time), as I find it much better than putting a ltr or more of eau de javel in my pool every day.

I have tried both systems, I don't care what anyone says about them both being chlorine, the salt water pool system is sooo much nicer on the skin and eyes.

Not all salt water chlorinators are the same, like everything else they have to be sized correctly, maintained correctly, and fed the right amount of salt. (I seem to recal JJ mentioning in a post last year that his was undersized)

Cassenarde makes a very interesting statement above, perhaps he (or someone else) will explain to me why:

  • My daily pool test show that I have chlorine (lots of it!) in my pool?
  • ALL salt water chlorinator manufacturers recommend that you add cynuric acid as a stabiliser to your pool (up to 70ppm) to prevent the chlorine produced by the CHLORINATOR being burnt off by bright sunlight - Presumably you wouldn't need to do this if the chlorine was only exposed for a brief micro-second in the depths of the pump house?

Whilst I understand that after the process salt is reformed I wasn't under the impression that it happened in a "blink of an eye" in the chlorinating unit

 

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If you translate the paragraph that Cassenarde is quoting, it doesn't actually say that the salt re-forms instantly, just that it happens "afterwards".

Of course there is still chlorine in a salt pool.  The reason that many people feel that salt pools feel kinder to the skin and eyes is often only that people compare salt pools with older style chlorine pools that relied on large doses of chlorine added to the pool. 

Newer technology now allows for chlorine pools to be "drip-fed" chlorine slowly and in very low doses, just as salt water chlorinators do, producing a very similar quality of water.

 

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Re the possibility of salt water pools being kinder to skin and eyes, I thought I would mention that my daughter has suffered and been hospitalised with severe eczema, particularly between the ages of 2 and 9. She is now 14 and by our standards, she's practically clear skinned.

Anyway, the point, she tolerates our chlorine pool very well but dreads being invited over to our friends' salt water pool as she says it feels to her like she's being dipped in acid.

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Have no real experience of salt pools, but must underscore the point that with a well regulated chlorine pool (we have an automatic liquid doser) ther is no chlor smell or feel. Our pool water is odourless and tastes drinkable. My daughter has had some severe skin complaints which led to her being unable to swim at school because of the chemicals. She has had absolutely no problem with out chlorine pool, nor has anyone had any eye irritation etc.

Pouyade

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If you have eye irritation it is caused by one of two reasons. 1. far too much chlorine, not very likely because it would have to be VERY high. 2. Not enough chlorine and this leads to the most likely cause, chloramine. It is the combination of chlorine and ammonia and is the cause of the smell, stinging eyes and lots more. So if you can smell anything in any type of pool then it's almost certainly too little chlorine not too much.

We have an auto chlor/PH system on our pool. I am confused about using 1 liter of javel per week. The system, as has been mentioned, checks the pool every 3 minutes to make sure the levels are correct. If the chlor is low it will feed about 100 ml of chlor followed by the some H2SO4, sulphuric acid, to keep the PH correct too. A 20 liter container of javel lasts about 3 months, so I am ot sure about having to put "a liter or more of javel in my pool every day" Goo_R? If you did that then I would not be surprised if anyones eyes were stinging and their cossie bleached and an ambulance were needed!!

When it comes to checking levels the only correct way to do it is with an electronic tester such as the Cool Pool Tester or Scuba+ electronic testers. Using reagent drops or strips is just not accurate... I like swimming in clean water and that is what I do!

As a P.S. Salt does not evaporate out with water or you would not be able to get sea salt to put on yer chips [:D]!!

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Hi,

Well I said I wouldn't come back, because I do not want to get into the dreaded 'my pool system is better than yours' syndrome. [:@]

However, I am happy to clarify and add more facts that I can gather (via Google) : for example see below.

I believe the electrolyser does in fact release HOCl (hypochlorous acid) into the pool....but it does not add any stabiliser (cyanuric acid) and it is this, I understand, that actually causes the smell and possible irritations associared with 'chlorine pools'.  Cyanuric acid is in the chlorine tablets commonly used, but not in the chlorochoc tablets which have short life. The stablilsier is necessary to prevent the HOCl disappearing too quickly.

Cyanuric acid is used as a stabilizer in recreational water treatment to minimize the decomposition of hypochlorous acid by sunlight in outdoor swimming pools and hot tubs. It achieves this by absorbing UV radiation.

Chlorinated derivatives of cyanuric acid, such as trichloro-s-triazinetrione and sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione, are used as algacides or microbiocides in swimming pool water and large scale water systems in industry.

 and:

What's the difference between a saltwater pool and a pool maintained with packaged

chlorine?

Salt

water pools used to be the exception, but now they are becoming a

widely accepted method of water treatment in swimming pools. A lot of

builders are now making salt water systems standard on their new

pools.  Most equipment manufacturers have also become aware of the fact

that salt water pools are not just a passing fad.  They are here to

stay.

Lower

Chlorine Levels -

Saltwater Pools - 0.5 to 1.0 ppm chlorine

Traditional Pools - 3.0 - 10.0 ppm chlorine

No

"Chemical Bath" Feel

NO packaged chlorine needed.

NO algaecides needed

NO soda ash or baking soda

Better

Swimmer Comfort

By eliminating the need for the harsh chemicals, you eliminate

the source of the irritation that plagues swimmers in most pools.

Controlled

Stabilizer Levels

If

you are using chlorine tablets, you are adding 1 lb. of stabilizer for

every 2 lbs. of tablets you put into your pool.   Your stabilizer level

rises to over 100 ppm and your chlorine becomes ineffective and yellow

algae and poor sanitization results. 

With a salt system, you add stabilizer as needed and are able to

keep the level low.  Your chlorine remains VERY effective and you need much less in the water to do the job (see above).

On commercial pools, state code requires you to drain pools when

the stabilizer level exceeds 100 ppm.  The salt system avoids this problem.

Superior

Algae Control

Saltwater pool systems virtually eliminate algae problems. 

This is because the chlorine in the pool is not inhibited by high stabilizer levels.

I am no pool expert, but I can use Google and Wiki:  go forth... and search for yourselves and make up our own mind!!

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If you have eye iritation it is caused by one of two reasons. 1. far too much chlorine, not very likely because it would have to be VERY high. 2. Not enough chlorine and this leads to the most likely cause, chloramine. It is the combination of chlorine and ammonia and is the cause of the smell, stinging eyes and lots more. So if you can smell anything in any type of pool then it's almost certainly too little chlorine not too much. Ammonia is not just because young children have peed in the pool. Sweat is almost the same compound and an active swimmer will sweat about 1 litre of fluid every hour. So there is where your ammonia comes from.

If you need to increase the cyanuric level then the method is to use diclor, fast chlor or shock, proper name sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione (just so you can recognise it on the tub!). It will do the same as shocking the pool, but it will up the cyanuric level too. Don't let it go above 80 ppm or you will only get it back down by changing the water. If it's a salt system then what do you legally do with it???

We have an auto chlor/PH system on our pool. I am confused about using 1 liter of javel per day The system, as has been mentioned, checks the pool every 3 minutes to make sure the levels are correct. If the chlor is low it will feed about 100 ml of chlor followed by the some H2SO4, sulphuric acid, to keep the PH correct too. A 20 liter container of javel lasts about 3 months and does not contain ANY cyanuric acid, but I keep the cyanuric level at about 50 ppm which is exactly where it should be. The chlor is about 1.3 ppm and the PH is 7.2. As I have said if you can smell chlorine then you are smelling the lack of it and are not getting the correct level of cleanleness of the water you are swimming in. When I have to shock my pool I will take it up to about 10 ppm. The last time was after a rain storm that dumped gawd knows what into it and it had to be shocked, but that is very rare and Poolguy told me that a load of other pools suffered the same after that rain storm.

Just as an aside there is not a single approved comercial pool in France that uses salt! They all have to use a clor system. Poolguy will back me on that and he can, when he returns, give chapter and verse on it much better than I can...

Finaly, when I have a swim in the sea I have to have a shower after to get rid of the salt. When I have a swim in my pool the shower is NOT needed. I know what I prefer...[:D]

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Hello again to all and HAPPY NEW YEAR

I hope to be able to continue to offer the advice service as before to those who are interested in Good Science to help them to choose, specify and maintain their pool and Spas.

We have tried over the last 3 years to deliver the most informative and accurate information available from our experience and from Experts around the World. Much of which will be viewable on our up and coming website particularly in the knowledge base.

Principally, I aim to offer to those who are unsure or new to pool ownership a Signpost to find the Correct answers to their questions. It troubles me intensely that there are so many fraudsters and so much misinformation on this subject available to steer owners in the wrong direction ostensibly for financial gain. For my part, even though I am a Pool Professional and offer many of these services, the most of the advice given here is offered without the expectation of a return. What’s important I believe, is that the standard by which the industry is measured in this country is lifted as I witness quite commonly, examples which are disturbingly low. Low to the point where the well being of bathers is in grave danger for the sake of profit from an unscrupulous or ignorant marketer.

By and large, I believe that readers and pool owners have welcomed this approach over the years, as many offer their thanks and kind words.

Hence I will do my best despite mounting commercial pressure to continue as best I can.

I chose this thread to contribute this salute, as it seems that it’s gone off the rails with rather suspect claims, which I have rebutted on several previous occasions. I do not yet propose to repeat my analysis unless a number of new posters who might be confused by the exchange would like to understand what are the real imperatives according to Commonly Accepted Science.

One of the main difficulties in this argument is that the Management of water crosses a number of disciplines, which are in themselves, a lifetime study. And so as I am not yet several lives old I cannot yet be so comprehensive as to define the issues form such multi-dimensional and multi-directional contentions (that I am attempting to do on the website for all those insomniacs).

What I generally do here on the forum is to summarise, or publish conclusions or propose recommendations; if a reader cannot agree or finds more comfort in the proposals of another promoter then sobeit, I cannot but try. For the background is too voluminous to post in support.

So, we are here again and I know that some who have already posted would whish me to elaborate, but unless its absolutely necessary I would say that all this has been dealt with before several times and the answers are still the same.

Andrew

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Thanks John

Yes great time was had by all in glorious 25-35degree temps... the wet was 1500klm north, so managed to avoid it.(just)

Squeezed in some work time as well (can't help my self) to review some new products for 2008 (watch this space)

Back in the chair now preparing for the Living France EXPO at Olympia in London Starting Next Friday 19th as we have a big stand and will be showing off some new stuff.

Anyone who wants to come say HI and talk over 'pool probs' face to face - well, thats what we are there for.

I'm sure that it will be great as over 40,000 tickets are prebooked, (that a lot of coffee)

So see you there, if your there, but if not see you here for the rest of the year.

Andrew

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