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Water discharge regs?


Jonzjob
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I thought that vidanger was to drain, or empty fluid. And I did say they should ask about local regs, ie best to ask.

No idea what would happen if one had a fosse system though, for all we had a fosse septique ours was linked to the community drains, I'd forgotten that not every one has this system.

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Don't know about regs, sorry, but a note on how our pool is emptied.

We live in a apartment building with a pool, but no way was built in to drain it. The first two years it was discharged by Desjoyaux into our park, which flooded, and then went into the road running alongside it. In the middle of emptying it the second year a stop was placed on it by the police, as it was a nuisance to drivers, and wasn't allowed to run into the drains. The rest of that discharge was achieved hiring a water tanker to drain the water into, and this has had to be done each year since, although we now use an independent company.

It seems mad that a large company can build a swimming pool with no sensible way of emptying it! Hope you find what you're looking for.
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[quote user="Jonzjob"]If it was the des-joyoo bunch that built it then I'm not surprised at all that they didn't think beyond the cash for chucking it in.

Where's that TP when he's needed? Probably on an expensive round the world cruise [Www][6]

[/quote]

Sorry John, I've been looking after my Mother who has take a turn for

the worse with uncontrolled shaking, very scary to watch this new

development and increasing deafness doesn't help either.

AFAIK, under the Article R1331-2 code of public health, you are not allowed to drain water into the sewerage networks. But you may get permission

for a

private pool. You can drain water into a storm drain but the water

should be zero for chlorine and no metals like copper or silver are

allowed as these sometimes run off into rivers and could pollute and

kill the river creatures. It is advised under the code that no

treatments have been added for 14 days before discharge.

Generally

people water their gardens with it as they don't want to get involved

in issues and when I am there they just want the work done and rules go

out of the window. 

Hope that helps

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[quote user="gardengirl "]Don't know about regs, sorry, but a note on how our pool is emptied.

We live in a apartment building with a pool, but no way was built in to drain it. The first two years it was discharged by Desjoyaux into our park, which flooded, and then went into the road running alongside it. In the middle of emptying it the second year a stop was placed on it by the police, as it was a nuisance to drivers, and wasn't allowed to run into the drains. The rest of that discharge was achieved hiring a water tanker to drain the water into, and this has had to be done each year since, although we now use an independent company.

It seems mad that a large company can build a swimming pool with no sensible way of emptying it! Hope you find what you're looking for.[/quote]

It seems mad that Desjoyaux even exist but that's another story...........Likewise Magiline and Waterair.

Why is your pool emptied each year gardengirl, that is such a waste of water and money, what is the reason behind it?  I get a bit het up with water being wasted unnecessarily  when other parts of the world people are dying through not being able to get a drink of non toxic, non polluted water.

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[quote user="Théière"]Please delete this post, This strange text appeared??

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Very odd TP.  I thought that you had run out of tonic [:-))] neat gin an all that [:-))]

I hope that your Mum is feeling a bit better now. Parents, like children can be a big worry can't they. Good luck mate!

I have done a quick copy of R1331-2 and will have a lok at it when I can see straight, in the morning. Too tired tonight, but ta for the info.

I have never drained water from our pool in the winter. As you say, what a waste. Our solar controller is set to run the pump if/when the water temp drops below a certain point to stop any freezing. Yes. I know that moving water can freeze, but it takes a lot more to make it do so.

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[quote user="Théière"][quote user="gardengirl "]Don't know about regs, sorry, but a note on how our pool is emptied.

We live in a apartment building with a pool, but no way was built in to drain it. The first two years it was discharged by Desjoyaux into our park, which flooded, and then went into the road running alongside it. In the middle of emptying it the second year a stop was placed on it by the police, as it was a nuisance to drivers, and wasn't allowed to run into the drains. The rest of that discharge was achieved hiring a water tanker to drain the water into, and this has had to be done each year since, although we now use an independent company.

It seems mad that a large company can build a swimming pool with no sensible way of emptying it! Hope you find what you're looking for.[/quote]

It seems mad that Desjoyaux even exist but that's another story...........Likewise Magiline and Waterair.

Why is your pool emptied each year gardengirl, that is such a waste of water and money, what is the reason behind it?  I get a bit het up with water being wasted unnecessarily  when other parts of the world people are dying through not being able to get a drink of non toxic, non polluted water.

[/quote]

I really don't know why the pool has always been emptied - and yes, it is a terrible waste. It's something all the French residents just accept - they thought it strange the first year when we and another English couple asked questions about where the water was going and why - and their answer was 'c'est normal'. We have the ex-chief pompier living in our apartment block, and as his only objection the first year it was emptied was to complain about water getting into the foundations and causing harm to them, we continued to assume that was indeed normal, along with so many things have seemed very odd to us. The following year the water was pumped to the edge of our land rather than aimed at the centre of the parc, and therefore almost immediately into the road, until the police arrived and put a stop to it.

As it seems that it isn't necessary to pump the water out, I'll ask questions of the syndic. However, our very effective president of the conseil syndical has a house with pool in the next village, which he and his wife live in during the summer and at various other times, and he has never raised the question of why our pool needs to be emptied, so again have always assumed he does something similar - although whether he would use the water on his manicured lawns or his vines is an interesting question. We're about to start a study of  the cost of the pool costs, as they are extremely high, so I'll also put that question on the agenda.

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[quote user="gardengirl "]

 We're about to start a study of  the cost of the pool costs, as they are extremely high, so I'll also put that question on the agenda.

[/quote]

I really truly believe in the case of the 3 aforementioned pool companies in France that as they have installed so many pools they are simply not questioned as "they must know best" and emptying and winterising etc are a huge income earner for said companies.  Plenty of British and American owners with their pools have observed how little actually goes for the money.

I would be happy to take a look at the running costs and give any input I can but with the Desjoyaux, Magiline and Waterair or any other mono block filtration system low cost of ownership/running won't happen as the system, if I can call it that is power hungry.

By contrast it is possible to run a pool with 85-90% saving over a standard setup which compared to the big 3 mentioned because they use over large pumps to alleviate the poor flow, this means using a pump twice as powerful and therefore twice as expensive as a standard setup.

In the case of Desjoyaux they also bring pressure to bear on owners to continue using only Desjoyaux branded products or terrible things will happen! The only thing that will happen is the bank balance will fall quicker as they are very expensive standard products.

On the upside, it is precisely because the mono block filtration does work to a degree when things are running ok, I knew it was possible to achieve the a similar water flow setup on a lot less electricity by simply not wasting it and that has been achieved and actually even the low energy solution is way better than a mono block setup so we have to thank Desjoyaux, Magiline and Water air for that because if I hadn't seen how bad the setup was I probably wouldn't  have started looking for improvement.

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[quote user="BJSLIV"]This parliamentary reply seems to give a sensible pragmatic summary of the situation

http://www.senat.fr/questions/base/2004/qSEQ040913862.html[/quote]

Thanks good to keep up to speed but as I said owners want the work done and tend to what they need, If I thought it was a real problem I would try to advise as I do not agree to polluting rivers.

I thought my one paragraph summed it up quite well compared to the verbose politicians but what's new [:)]

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[quote user="gardengirl "]

I really don't know why the pool has always been emptied - and yes, it is a terrible waste.

[/quote]

I have a feeling that there is a law somewhere that says that all pools used by the public have to be emptied each year.

I think it is more to do with health and safety than anything else.

Will try and find a reference.

Sue

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[quote user="Théière"][quote user="gardengirl "]

 We're about to start a study of  the cost of the pool costs, as they are extremely high, so I'll also put that question on the agenda.

[/quote]

I really truly believe in the case of the 3 aforementioned pool companies in France that as they have installed so many pools they are simply not questioned as "they must know best" and emptying and winterising etc are a huge income earner for said companies.  Plenty of British and American owners with their pools have observed how little actually goes for the money.

I would be happy to take a look at the running costs and give any input I can but with the Desjoyaux, Magiline and Waterair or any other mono block filtration system low cost of ownership/running won't happen as the system, if I can call it that is power hungry.

By contrast it is possible to run a pool with 85-90% saving over a standard setup which compared to the big 3 mentioned because they use over large pumps to alleviate the poor flow, this means using a pump twice as powerful and therefore twice as expensive as a standard setup.

In the case of Desjoyaux they also bring pressure to bear on owners to continue using only Desjoyaux branded products or terrible things will happen! The only thing that will happen is the bank balance will fall quicker as they are very expensive standard products.

On the upside, it is precisely because the mono block filtration does work to a degree when things are running ok, I knew it was possible to achieve the a similar water flow setup on a lot less electricity by simply not wasting it and that has been achieved and actually even the low energy solution is way better than a mono block setup so we have to thank Desjoyaux, Magiline and Water air for that because if I hadn't seen how bad the setup was I probably wouldn't  have started looking for improvement.

[/quote]

That's a very kind

offer, Théière.

When the CS member who keeps an eye on finances returns to the south,

probably some time in March I'll take you up on that - she was

planning to get all the info from the syndic while here on this

visit, but she has now told me that wrapping up their house purchase

and move took much longer than they had thought.

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[quote user="suein56"][quote user="gardengirl "]

I really don't know why the pool has always been emptied - and yes, it is a terrible waste.

[/quote]

I have a feeling that there is a law somewhere that says that all pools used by the public have to be emptied each year.

I think it is more to do with health and safety than anything else.

Will try and find a reference.

Sue

[/quote]

Thanks, Sue – that

would seem to make some sort of sense I suppose.

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[quote user="suein56"][quote user="gardengirl "]

I really don't know why the pool has always been emptied - and yes, it is a terrible waste.

[/quote]

I have a feeling that there is a law somewhere that says that all pools used by the public have to be emptied each year.

I think it is more to do with health and safety than anything else.

Will try and find a reference.

Sue

[/quote]

I think you may be right there Sue, I empty per year with 2 empties of a balance tank if fitted.

In some modern pools no additional or very little water is used, the water goes off to a holding and balance tank it settles and the micro filtration removes everything from the water so it can be re used as it is much cleaner than the incoming tap water.  In the case of good pools the water being drained is cleaner than the water being supplied. Better for the environment and lower costs all round.

I do dislike these kind of regulations as they are drawn up to globally apply to pools some of which are very poor. The correct action would be to make the poor pools upgrade and as such there is a pan European spec being drawn up at the moment which is being done by the giants of the industry who are all looking to protect their sales and profits and not really to improve very much. A separate part is the Health and safety section which nearly got skimmers outlawed and all pools to use lap edges on the simple basis that the opening of a skimmer at the waterline was too large compared the gap allowed in a fence for example. These people have no knowledge of pools but must obviously come up with suggestions or they won't get to go to the lunch clubs. I was informed there have been no entrapment cases involving skimmers so that idea will probably be dropped.

They are also trying to get rid of all pool covers except safety covers, so no more solar, don't worry it won't happen too many cover manufacturers will see to that.

I don't know the details of Gardengirls  pool but I would doubt, based on other Desjoyaux pools I have visited that also come under the regulations that any of the other parts comply regarding turnover, chemical dosing etc and based on the filtration frequently used by Desjoyaux it isn't really filtration it's straining of the larger pieces of dirt, and flocculation is not part of the system so it cannot remove bacteria, virus, or oocyst of cryptosporidium which is one of the biggest concerns with water based facilities world wide. This is also not of interest to Desjoyaux and the others   as it's unlikely to result in additional income for the pool companies via maintenance contracts.

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The regulations for public pools require them to be emptied and cleaned twice a year.

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006074617&dateTexte=

and

http://www.guide-piscine.fr/dangers-a-la-piscine/noyade-et-hydrocution/vidange-des-bassins-une-etape-obligatoire-352_C

I believe a public pool includes anything intended for use by more than one family.

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From what I re read yesterday, basins once per year, tanks twice a year and on the second link they reference article 6 but article 6 is about chemical injection?  Further down the report it does mention tanks and basins in separate comments.

Even when emptied, the inside of pipework will not be accessible and that is where the majority of bacterial biofilm resides, cleaning the parts that are easily accessible may look good and be a step in the right direction for some pools but how effective it really is who knows.

Yes a public pool is a pool used by more than one family but in the case of pools less than 240m3 the system is more relaxed and of the multi occupancy gites I know have been inspected records of emptying were not requested and the water quality was more of concern.

Of course it should be more to do with bather loading than size, a small pool with a kids birthday party is far more likely to cause an issue than a medium pool 50m3 with two families of 3 in it. just no correlation in the regulations.

On the basis that 30ltrs of water per bather per day should be replaced under this regime as I said before a storage tank could be used to settle the water and an ultra fine filter (reverse osmosis) used to replenish the pool saving a lot of water and heating.

The inspectors have no flow monitoring device therefore water turnover and flow rate cannot be measured

I can summerise it very easily: 100% of all the Desjoyaux, Magiline and Waterair pools plus, used by more than one family fail.

The pool industry is a funny one, Last week I met the chap responsible for the London Olympic Aquatic Facility and he really is the second only person in the industry I have met who has the first clue about what is required to successfully make a good pool and his budget restraints meant taking shortcuts.  At the Olympic park the water that cannot be put back into the pool is used to flush the toilets but under UK heath code it must be treated first! just a little wry smile but that's the rule.

Most bacteria are killed easily but it's the ones that are stubbornly  resistant to chlorine etc that give concern like Cryptosporidium parvum. These have to be filtered out but 99% of the filters in use in swimming pools cannot remove Cryptosporidium, a point I made in the meeting last week and endorsed by 3 doctors on the panel 1 of whom work for the health UK the others for health Wales. The solution is to use flocculation and coagulation which can remove these pathogens.  Desjoyaux, Magiline and Waterair cannot use flocculation and have very poor filtration.

When was the last time you cleaned your filters?  Domestic filters do not backwash very well so leaving dirt etc behind which can quickly become a biological filter teaming with life.  The Swedish government commissioned a report into filtration and found dead skin was broken up in a filter and recirculated so flocculation is required to remove it with frequent backwash.

Poolguy used to write on this subject and was pilloried just for stating the french regulations.

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TP, I have Zeolite in my filter and you aren't supposed to use a floculent with it.

I have had a look at the French links on discharging pool water and so far the content of those sites is about as clear as mud to me. Is there a 'simple' version of any of it please?

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