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CPAM - Proof of residence


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I agree with both Coops and Ron,  except that as this for many 100s of people is another development in this sorry saga, and we are trying to make sense of it.  We remain in a situation where much is still unknown, yet to be decided and there are few facts, and it appears from the ineptitude of the embassy and others we are on our own.

It is perhaps not the time to ignore letters such as that of 16 Oct which many  have received.  It is not a good position surely, to assume it is of little consequence or guess that it is bureaucratic inefficiency or a holding tactic.  The truth is we do not know why these letters are being sent out.

I am not happy to just wait and see ( but that's just me perhaps)  I am not worrying, but I would like to have an explanation from my CPAM. I have emailed them again this morning and while I cannot guarantee the French, a copy follows for anyone who feels they might do the same. (I have allowed myself a little leeway in the numbers of letters received!)

 ...C'est bizarre mais il paraît que  centaines de

resortissants Britanniques, partout en France, ont reçu la même lettre

- celle datée le 16 oct 2007, disant que leur  CPAM n'a pas recu les

documents demandés avant le 17 sep 2007.

L'envoie de cette lettre  est peut-être un pépin informatique, et avant

que je vous apporte tous les documents demandés et les livrer  en

personne, veuillez me confirmer que les documents que je vous ai

envoyés le 30 sep 2007, ne sont vraiment pas arrivés.

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I have just signed the health petition.  Don't know who wrote it, but I find it lamentable that the only category available for those who haved moved here is "expatriate".  Very controversial.  I signed anyway, but surely with all the debate that has happened, it would have been courteous to put "immigrant" as a possibility.

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I think it came from another (regional) forum.  Like you, I might have worded it differently but it's out there and unless we do another, which will just water it down, then it's the best there is.  Good for them for having done something, I say, so I too have signed it as is.  Within our lobby group (of which more on Monday) you'll be glad to know we've been very aware of the point you make, 13V.[:)]
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[quote user="TreizeVents"]I have just signed the health petition.  Don't know who wrote it, but I find it lamentable that the only category available for those who haved moved here is "expatriate".  Very controversial.  I signed anyway, but surely with all the debate that has happened, it would have been courteous to put "immigrant" as a possibility.
[/quote]

I'm confused as to why you see this as an issue - Wiki definition:

An expatriate (in abbreviated form, expat) is a person temporarily or permanently residing in a country and culture other than that of the person's upbringing or legal residence.

Surely this suits the situation or are you confusing the issue with ex-patriot as many do?

 

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[quote]An expatriate (in abbreviated form, expat) is a person temporarily or permanently residing in a country and culture other than that of the person's upbringing or legal residence.[Panda][/quote]

The definition seems a little confused - how do you permanently reside in a country other than that of your legal residence?  But if we accept the oddity, we find that many "ex-pats" are legally resident here in France (or elsewhere) and so, like us, are emigrants (from UK) and immigrants (here).

Though I note (from further down the Wikipedia ex-patriate" reference):

The difference between an expatriate and an immigrant

is that immigrants (for the most part) commit themselves to becoming a

part of their country of residence, whereas expatriates are usually

only temporarily placed in the host country and most of the time plan

on returning to their home country, so they never adopt the culture in

the host country - though some may end up never actually returning,

with the distinction then becoming more a matter of their own viewpoint.

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Funnily enough, Panda, whilst I've been involved in producing loads of documents and stuff on this subject in recent days, it is one of the things which comes up a lot, and a (n albeit small) number of people have taken issue with the word expatriate (or more particularly "expat") and seem to prefer to be called imigrants.  Semantics really.  If this petition helps to get the job done, who cares, ultimately?  As I say, good for them for having produced it.  Get signing, all you expats and imigrants....[:)]
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It is semantics but with an underlying prejudice, imo. British people in France (and Spain, no doubt) do often refer to themselves as expats. In the next sentence they may refer, disparagingly, to immigrants to Britain. When did any of us last hear a discussion about Polish or Romanian expats living in the UK? No, they're always immigrants.

I've always understood expats to be people who are working in another country but expect to eventually return to their country of origin. On that basis - and because I don't like that prejudice I sense in the term expat - in France, I'm an immigrant. And perfectly happy about it. [kiss]

Apologies for the slight deviation from your discusion, Coops...[:P]

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Its not quite a matter of mere semantics, and I think that Catalpa and Chessfou have made the relevant points.  Have any of you heard of immigrants from the Mahgreb being called or calling themselves "expats".  It is not merely semantics, and the names people use for themselves (and for "others") often reveal more than they know.  It is important to secure our medical care, as well as getting the terms right.  We, those of us who actually live here, not second homevisitors; or temporarily working here for a bit, are immigrants.  On average we are just a bit more well off than the poor ones.  And usually white.

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I phoned the CMU helpline this morning (English speaking) at 0820904212 and was told that the letter we received on saturday asking for more documents was 'a big mistake, generated by the computer'.  She said it was automatically sent to everyone, whether or not hey had sent their documents in - and that if I thought I had sent the right things then to do nothing.

I am going to send a follow up letter rather than ignore it but at least this phone call has prevented me from wasting time visiting CPAM offices later today as planned.  If anyone hears anything different when they do visit cpam then please give feed back.

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Went to CPAM Angouleme this morning with my "reminder letter". They had received my original documents.

After speaking to 2 colleagues the lady copied a form for us to fill in (new procedure). We had to answer the following 6 questions yes or no and sign the form.

 

 

Nom :                                                                                      Prénom :

 

Date de naissance                                                               Nationalité

 

Adresse en France:

 

 

1. Exercez-vous une activité salariée dans un Etat de l’Union Européenne ?

 

 2. Exercez-vous une activité salariée en France ?

(Exemple traduction, rédaction d'article de presse, télétravail

 

Nature de I'activité exercée :

 

 3. Exercez-vous une activité non salariée en France ? (Exemple : location de gîte, chambres d'hôtes)

 

4. Exercez-vous une activité en France pour le compte d’un employeur étranger en tant que travailleur détaché ?

 

5. Percevez-vous une indemnisation des ASSEDIC ?

 

6. Percevez-vous des allocations familiales, le RMI, une allocation adulte handicapé, une allocation de parent isolé ?

 

 

We were then told we'd hear something in approx 3 weeks time

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Hi, I've just read all the comments re the use of EXpats on the PM petition-  I assume people are referring to this in their E mails. Can I just say that as one of the originators of this petition, we only wrote the petition words, we used the format for voting that was presented by the website!
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Just re-reading the questionnaire mentioned by Graham and Brenda....

Whilst this could be just a means of obtaining a signed declaration which could be used in the event of discrepancies in other fiscal declarations, it does contain questions which might possibly establish your right to continuation of CMU cover, eg, activité non salariée, indemnisation des ASSEDIC, RMI etc.

Perhaps the CPAMs have been instructed to establish whether these other conditions can be applied, thereby overriding the 'inactive' roadblock.

 

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[quote user="BJSLIV"]

Perhaps the CPAMs have been instructed to establish whether these other conditions can be applied, thereby overriding the 'inactive' roadblock.

Or as evidence in Fraud prosecutions.

[/quote]It wouldn't suprise me at all if at least some of the motivation behind the whole CMU debacle, weren't the number of people who claim when they shouldn't - or who are cash poor but asset rich.  But it's just a personal feeling...
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Though it's still puzzling me why, if as everyone assumes, people will be allowed back into the sytem after five years residence, the official statements make explicit no mention of any such provision.

However if people are allowed back in, the French do have an additional trick up their sleeve, which allows them to assess the contribution based on lifestyle rather than declared income, in cases where people are thought to be "Living above their means". This new provision was introduced last year after the Dordogneshire fraud cases.

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I seem to remember, BJSLIV, and I cannot remember whether it was on this forum or another, somebody who declared their income to the CPAM and then was investigated.  All their bank statements were gone through and their income for that purpose was based on all the cash withdrawals they had made from their capital - not just the interest they had declared on their tax forms.  I can see more and more of this happening,  if the 5 year rule  is implemented.
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I can tell you that, although I was asked to complete the abovementioned form, I have been completing tax forms since I arrived 3 years ago and I pay my assessed cotisations via URSSAF (just in case anyone thinks it was because I have been avoiding my obligations). I would prefer to keep paying and to stay in the system. We could pay the same as the "average Frenchman" if they wish, although that could be less than we are paying now!!

IF the 5 year rule subsequently is allowed, there will have been a cost to "the system" of booting us out and then re-registering us. Crazy.

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[quote user="Graham and Brenda"]

IF the 5 year rule subsequently is allowed, there will have been a cost to "the system" of booting us out and then re-registering us. Crazy.

[/quote]

Remember this is France. If you can save 10€

though it costs you 100€ to do then it is worth doing (despite the

net cost of 90€). This is particularly true there the main costs

be bureaucracy.

Also, bear in mind that this has little to do with

cost savings. It is about political dogma (dislike of the

"inactifs"). There are many hundreds of things they could

do without impacting people's healthcare that would save a fortune -

but they are not motivated by things like that.

Ian

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