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Visit from CPAM officer


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Has anybody else had this experience recently?

In the last few weeks we have had the same things as a lot of people on this forum:-

- A letter from CPAM Niort saying we had not sent all the neccessary documentation they requested for CV renewal (we had sent it)-

- A letter following that, saying to present ourselves urgently at CPAM Niort to explain our finances, we went and were told the letter  was  sent out in error but they explained that after March 2008 we would not be covered any longer. 

Yesterday while we were out, a CPAM representative left a card to say they had visited us in order to 'regularise' our dossier. We had to telephone a number to make another appointment which we did and are waiting for a return call.

We have been permanently resident in France for nearly 5 years and wonder if it could be for that reason we've had a visit, although during those 5 years we have never had anyone from CPAM come to our home, quite the opposite - its usually been a demand to go and see them in their offices.

If anyone has any experience of this we'd be interested to hear what's happened to you.

Thanks and Regards

Hazel 

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    I found this post interesting because we have to deal with the same office (we too live in Deux-Sèvres) and have been here just over 5 years.  We have never (so far) had a visit from CPAM.  I wonder what they mean by regularise - presumably you sent them the same documents as usual.  We had the same letter saying that we hadn't sent in the documentation although we had, then we had the letter yesterday saying that we will be out of the system after the end of March 2008.  We are just waiting for "the announcement" before we decide what to do next.  Maybe we too should expect a visit?

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It might be a good sign.

Part of the new regulations provides that in order to satisfy themselves that everything is OK, CPAM can carry out home visits. The purpose is like a tax audit so that they can compare your lifestyle with your declared income.

So if you have been claiming the free complementaire hide the Range Rover around the back by the Lotus.........

If they think you have a lifestyle above your declared income they can raise an assessment on what they believe to be a more realistic income than that declared.

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It sounds to me that you are getting a lifestyle visit to compare your lifestyle with that of your declared income. On the other hand it would  appear to indicate that those that have been resident for 5 years plus, will be able to stay within the CMU. looking from another side perhaps those in the CMU at the 30th sept and not resident for 5 years will be excluded.

 

All speculation, I would suggest that you record any conversations and ensure that you have an independent person with you during the visit. From experience of revenue audits, I would suggest that you say very little and listen to all questions very carefully and respond with, " I need to think about the question and will revert to you in due course in writing". or would you please pose the questions in writing, so that i can give due consideration to the question and frame a comprehensive response.

 

ams

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Thanks for all the comments, we have had a return phone call from the CPAM officer who says he has some questions on our tax returns for 2003 and 2004 so it may well be that they are checking our life style and expenditure.

Luckily we live a pretty simple life (one of the reasons for coming to France) and have always filled in tax returns and kept all relevant documentation for the last 5 years. Our visit is going to be Thursday morning apparently, so I'll post an update following that as it looks like it may be of interest to you.

Thanks again - Watch this space!

Hazel and Chris

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[quote user="ams"]

It sounds to me that you are getting a lifestyle visit to compare your lifestyle with that of your declared income. On the other hand it would  appear to indicate that those that have been resident for 5 years plus, will be able to stay within the CMU. looking from another side perhaps those in the CMU at the 30th sept and not resident for 5 years will be excluded.

 

All speculation, I would suggest that you record any conversations and ensure that you have an independent person with you during the visit. From experience of revenue audits, I would suggest that you say very little and listen to all questions very carefully and respond with, " I need to think about the question and will revert to you in due course in writing". or would you please pose the questions in writing, so that i can give due consideration to the question and frame a comprehensive response.

 

ams

[/quote]

 

Just be very carefull that you have the CPAM persons consent to record the conversation

It is a criminal offence under the penal code

CHAPTER VI. - OFFENCES AGAINST PERSONALITY

SECTION 1. - OFFENCES AGAINST PRIVACY

ARTICLE 226-1

Ordinance No. 2000-916 of 19 September 2000 Article 3 Official Journal of 22 September into force 1 January 2002

A penalty of one year’s imprisonment and a fine of € 45,000 is incurred for any wilful violation of the intimacy of the private life of other persons by resorting to any means of:

1° intercepting, recording or transmitting words uttered in confidential or private circumstances, without the consent of their speaker;

2° taking, recording or transmitting the picture of a person who is within a private place, without the consent of the person concerned.

Where the offences referred to by the present article were performed in the sight and with the knowledge of the persons concerned without their objection, although they were in a position to do so, their consent is presumed.

ARTICLE 226-2

The same penalties apply to the keeping, bringing or causing to be brought to the knowledge of the public or of a third party, or the use in whatever manner, of any recording or document obtained through any of the actions set out under article 226-1.

Where the misdemeanour under the previous paragraph is committed through the press or by broadcasting, the specific legal provisions governing those matters are applicable to define the persons who are responsible.

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It has been my experience that very few CS refuse to allow the conversation to be recorded, when faced with the request. That being the case, then generally the conversation is generally short and to the point. It is normal for a CS to bring along a colleague when visiting a principal private residence. To come alone would be extremely dangerous, as in the past they have been accused of all sorts of things, from theft to !!!!!.

 

On the other side of the coin, the client is generally represented by a professional accountant.

 

ams

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[quote user="ams"]

On the other side of the coin, the client is generally represented by a professional accountant.

[/quote]

I have no idea about CPAM and CS visits but when I was first looking for an accountant to deal with my simple French tax returns I was having difficult and contacted the big ones that advertise in LF.  A friend told me to be careful as getting companies like that to submit simple tax returns can actually raise questions - like "how come they are employed to declare so little so where have they hidden the real money ...".

Unless you are quite wealthy and expecting problems, having an accountant present might risk raising questions ?

Ian

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Must be getting a bit like the UK Inl.Rev. I was called into the offices some years back,after an expensive divorce and the Tax inpector had 2 long lists of questions, including "How many pints of milk to you use a week"? and "  How many pairs of shoes have you bought this year"?   I kid you not. It was a bit like an old spy story where he gets a grilling from the KGB or Spetznas. After nearly an hour I suggested he fill the ahswers in for me as it seemed he'd made his mind up on the outcome. Perhaps he was on a commission. Fortunately I haven't had any knocks on the door lately, or should I say,YET.

Regards

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There shouldn't be a problem here should there?  In the UK the DWP/Benefits people visit homes to interview claimants as a matter of routine, especially those on long-term benefits like DLA and IB.

We're part of the French system and they're doing what they do, to the French also, it's not an anti-Brtish thing.  My accountant tells me there's no need to have to justify your income to CPAM people, they will only be using your tax return/payment details, they wont have all the detail.

And like the UK, they always visit in pairs, it's to safeguard themselves usually from bogus claims of violence, intimidation or other misconduct etc., so if they're coming in twos, have your OH in the room with you, unless you have a problem with your tax return, no need to have your accountant with you - this is about the relationship between income and CMU benefits.

The CMU/CPAMs are evidently doing lifestyle checks on people - a chum locally has been warned by his book-keeper that he (and several other artisans) do not return enough money to live on for families of three or four people and that they will likely be visited to see what their income actually is - it's all part of the clamp down on working on the black I think.

If it were an interview at the hotel d'impots, different scenario, take the accountant with you then. 

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Unexpectedly today, the CPAM officer arrived this morning instead of tomorrow as we had arranged, apparently he was in the neighbourhood and thought it would be worth seeing if we were in.

We had not planned to have anybody with us during the interview, nor had we any intention of taping what was said, so we were happy to go with the flow and find out what it was all about.

Although some of you thought he would be accompanied, he was on his own, and we have to say that he was very pleasant and helpful. He re-iterated what we were told at CPAM Niort about our health cover finishing at the end of March 2008 and explained that we must have 100% health cover from 1st April until I receive my pension next October, at which point my husband and I will both be covered under CPAM again. He suggested that we contact our french bank as he thought this would be a good place to start enquiring about 100% health cover.

He came with a copy of our last tax return for 2006 and asked  1) if we had a house in the UK still, 2)  if we transferred money from England on a regular basis to live on, and 3) if not, how much money we had in our French bank account to live on until next October.

We answered all his questions truthfully, showing him bank accounts and discussing all the above points. We asked him about the potential 5 year rule and he said CPAM can only proceed on the law as it is at the moment, but if and when there are new changes on this we will be contacted by him and notified officially of the change. 

He was sympathetic to our plight and explained that he has a very large dossier of people to visit in the same situation, not only English, but Dutch, German, Spanish and other nationalities.

Hope this helps

Hazel and Chris

 

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With reference to Chris-Hazel's letter. We have found that whatever Dept. we have to deal with a visit to their offices and talking to somebody is the best way of dealing with any problem. If they come to you so much the better.The staff are usually helpful and if you take all the required bits of paper with you ,the problem is dealt with straight away. Writing only seems to bring more letters.

Regards.

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