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France backs down on access to CMU for inactifs


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I agree, which I why I feel we should make a contribution, here in France, as I would in the UK!

Also Norman, we haven't whinged - far from it, we have asked questions, learnt what to do and worked from there. We are happy to pay - but what, who and where!

Glad you're on the up though - it's more like you xxxx
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But I thought that to become a french resident one had to show that one could keep themselves and not be a burden to the french state?

From the Service-public.fr web site.

 

Séjour durant les 5 premières années

 

Conditions pour un droit au séjour

Le retraité ou autre inactif doit disposer, pour lui et les membres de sa famille, de ressources suffisantes pour ne pas devenir une charge pour le système d'assistance sociale français et d'une assurance maladie-maternité.

Le caractère suffisant des ressources est apprécié en tenant compte de la situation de la personne.

Pour déterminer si la personne représente ou non une charge déraisonnable pour le système d'aide sociale français, l'administration tient compte du montant des prestations sociales non contributives (versées sans contrepartie de cotisations) qui ont été accordées à la personne et examine la nature de ses difficultés et la durée de son séjour en France.

 

 

 

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Didn't Sarko pretty well sum it up when he said something to the effect, "if people want to take early retirement in France then let them but don't expect us to pay for it" ?

It seems to me that the basic underlying problem here is that the EU is a lumbering, disparate, and monumntally inefficient behemoth which can't make a decision to save it's life. There is a case in point in todays news - the decision that websites should be 'opt in' for added extras rather than 'opt out'. Seemingly this has been under consideration for 5 years but even though it's now been adopted it's not coming into force until 2013.

With such a palty issue taking 7 years to reach law, when in all probability it could have been done and dusted in 6 months tops, what possible chance is there for harmonisation of major matters such as EU wide health care !

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Keni, you have missed the point, in that a contribution of Euros 50 per person each month, goes no where near covering the potential cost and actuarial risk to the French State of providing health care an expat early retiree.

If you had been working in France all your professional life, the French government would have benefited from your CMU contributions over an extended period when you were younger and unlikely to claim much in medical expenses. Now that you are older you are much more likely to claim more than you will have contributed, or likely to in the future.
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The age thing is bandied about a lot in this old chestnut argument but don't forget that it's only relevant until one reaches UK state retirement age, after which Britain pays. 

I've always felt (and I know Norman and others don't agree but there you go) that pre-retirees should be allowed to contribute the mean amount set by the EU (around 2.5k a year) to France/wherever for their healthcare.  If it's acceptable after you've reached "a certain age" then why not before? 

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They either got private cover or winged it.  Of course, in those days they were allowed to pay as they went but now they are not - they have to have full cover equivalent to that given by the state.  Hospital only cover is, theoretically at least, not acceptable under the current regs.

EDIT : Or they could get work, of course, as now, just as Norman says (and did.)

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That is the whole crux of the matter - if an inactif were to be in need of medical assistance, they could pay as they go, there was not the requirement for a massive insurance hike for these years. I cannot say that I will remain healthy until I am 64/65/66 or whatever the British government will decide. However, if I had the choice I would say that surely either I pay 50 euros plus my top up into a mutuelle or the whole amount of the mutuelle payment into the system IN CASE I may succumb to a maladie, would be better than nothing?

As Coops says, once I am retired, the cover is then taken over by the UK system into which I have paid since I was 14.

However, being illogical, having paid into the UK system, and I were still in the UK, I would be covered. So I am in France, a part of the EU, as is the UK, so why not transfer our rights to the French system? If you have paid into the Uk system, you should surely be entitled to another EU countrys' rights?

Yes, Norman, I know the regs and how it works, but surely you can see what I am driving at? I would be inactif in the UK, but still entitled to health care.
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Keni, whilst I'm sympathetic (as you know), the rate for those over pensionable age is, as I posted, about 2.5k a year.  Thus your 50 a month wouldn't come close to what the EU has deemed a person's healthcare is likely, on average, to cost.  If that were the sum one was required to pay (adjusted downwards a little, maybe, for age) then I can't see the problem but I think that £600 a year is pushing it a bit!
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No, Coops, you miss what I'm saying, at present we pay our Mutelle of around 70+ euros a month, add to that another 50 euros, that is then around 1200 euros a year, in case of maladie. That is around a fifth of our income a year, which we would pay.

I would rather pay that to the French Government, rather than an insurance company.

We do not ask anything of anyone at present, we grow our food and live off our savings. I am sure though that many on this site who are inactif would rather pay something - remember we are not all going to be ill, and if we are surely we won't all be ill at the same time.
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Yes, I get you.  However...

The EU has determined a specific fixed amount which it believes is what it costs for the French government to provide healthcare to the same standard as a French citizen.  This amount has been set at something like 2.5k a year ( this is from memory, it might be a little more or a little less but it's roughly right.)  The top-up element is irrelevant, since the French pay this too, on top of the 12% of their income throughout their lives (no 30 year limit for them, as we have on our NI contributions.)  So I really do think that £50 a month is probably a tad short of what it costs to provide.  CMU-ers only pay 8% but I think salaried staff and those in business etc pay about 12%.  Somebody who works here will know better than I.

EDIT : Keni, I'm aware that all this sounds unsympathetic but it's surely the way in which this current government views this (with the exception that they'd rather you paid some profit-making organisation than contribute to the national pot).  I don't agree with them, but I understand why they think what they do.   However, I do think that the other bit of your argument holds more water.  It would be fairer, imho, if the UK contributed at least some of our healthcare costs before we reach UK ste retirement age, since - as you rightly point out - one would be benefiting from NHS care if one remained in Britain. Provided we contribute the same number of years of NI contributions, what's the difference?.  Just because you live in France (or elsewhere in the EU), you get penalised. 

But to suggest that 50 a month would cover the 70% left over when you already pay 70 for the other 30% well.... I don't know about you, but my arithmetic doesn't stack up on this one!

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Yes, I get what you're saying, but we're actually trying to help the French Government, not whinging. We want to pay something, and not be a burden. We chose to live here.

I agree - if I walked into the Doc in the Uk, it would be free, so why not when we're over here, as you say, the Uk contribute to those that need medical assistance, or something. Heck if a non-Uk national gets free healthcare in Uk, why can't the British passport holders get the same in EU countries with us contributing x amount.

I just don't understand as you say 'EDIT', why the French Government don't get something from us, rather than let us pay insurance companies.

I'm not saying it's 50 quid/euros a month, that is just how we work out our mutuelle plus a thought for an 'extra' payment, we could afford. After all I think a fifth of our monthly income would be more than a fair offer - if CMU is 8%, if we all contributed a designated, fair payment, the French Government would be getting more than they do now.
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Sorry about the word 'whinging' I was referring to the original campaign, not to individuals..

Don't forget that the UK is the odd man out in Europe, so when you say 'if I walked into the Doc in the Uk, it would be free, so why not when we're over here' you are rather expecting the tail (the UK system) to wag the tail of the Dog ( the European one)

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Keni, there is no integration of different EU countries social security systems, nor will there likely be. Also the rights to free movement within the EU are heavily qualified, especially for retirees, in that you must not be a burden on the country you move to.

The French government clearly has a bee in its bonnet about low income foreign early retirees moving to France, as any contribution the low income early retiree would make to the CMU, would come nowhere near the cost of medical services provided by the French government.

If the French government introduced a minimum CMU contribution for foreign early retirees, I would expect capital assets and savings to be taken into account, as it is rumoured some regions are now doing, and for it to be priced around a minimum of Euros 2,500.00 per year, per person.

Personally, in the current economic crisis, I think it will get more difficult for early retirees to move within the EU as governments clamp down on spending in public health services.
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Norman has always felt that it was perfectly fair for anybody who had even the smallest long-term uninsurable condition to have to find work or sell up - with all the losses of both home, friendship and money that that would have involved -  whereas those who were only likely to get sick in the future, could stay and that anybody who felt this discriminated against the sick was whinging.  I, and the others who founded FHI, disagreed. 

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By far the cheapest way to get French healthcare cover is to work. This is not as onerous as it seems for the early retired. To qualify you need to earn 60 * SMIC (9euros an hour) within one month, or 120 * SMIC within 3 months. This will qualify you for healthcare for 1 year. So if you can find temporary, full or part-time employment which pays 540 euros for work carried out within one month then you are covered for the next 12.

There are often very short, interim  or seasonal contracts on the Pole Emploi website that may suit English-speaking community . .

Just a thought . . .[I]

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You assume that this is about people who are already settled (sell up - with all the losses of both home, friendship and money that that would have involved)  which in fact is covered by a clause about 'accidents de la vie'

What I have objected to is people who are perfectly fit coming to France and then expecting to slot into a different healthcare system on UK terms, making no concessions to the system as it exists here ..a sort of cultural imperialism.

I see no reason not  to  either pay up, work, or start a business, as those of us pre- 2000 had to do. Those who do that while they are fit have no worries about 'the smallest long-term uninsurable condition'

.

Even I with my dubious health could still work as an AE enough to qualify.

Those who don't do that have made a choice they are entitled to make, but I believe they should accept the consequences.

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Hi, having looked at this all ends up I agree with Norman and think the best guarantee to not have difficulties obtaining state healthcare in France is to start up as an AE and keep at it until at least 5 years residency can be proven.  Having said that and as someone is about to become an inactif (though one with a very healthy income), I am pleased that if all else fails then at some point down the line I might be able to pay 2,500 euros per person per year and be entitled to remain in the French healthcare system.  As I said on an older thread, I'd rather be handing this sort of money to the FG rather than to a profit-making insurance company.  
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[quote user="Daft Doctor"]...I'd rather be handing this sort of money to

the FG rather than to a profit-making insurance company.  [/quote]But in case of an individual's serious illness, I suppose the FG would rather the profit-making insurance companies cover the thousands of euros of costs (possibly ongoing costs) and not them. I kinda sense that occasionally people feel that the FG is a good cause deserving of their donations... er... contributions. I don't think the FG sees it that way or manages risk that way. [;-)]

ETA:

And I certainly don't feel that way about RSI... [:P]

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The reason we are inactif (yeh right - gorwing all veg and beekeepers), is because in the Uk the OH was a train driver and had a suicide, which over a period of time affected his work and now, to be honest he could not work. I on the other hand is/are happy to find work, my French is improving - yes, Norman I can hold a conversation with a neighbour(?) to a degree, but as as artist/craft worker and ex-motor journalist, would find it difficult, but would happily work in Macdonalds in Family Village or St Junien (if they would have me). However with pre-cancerous lesions, not many people want me, so I am happy at present to not be a burden to anyone and at present do not need medication of any kind.

I am not worried, if worst comes to worst I will start a market stall, or failing that take Jeremy Clarksons place when on holiday! - Can he ride a bike as well - no! [:D] (Sorry can't get big smile up). x
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