Automatic French healthcare entitlement for EU expats at 65?

[Chancer]

[quote user="AnOther"]Proof of continuous comprehensive health insurance will be required too.
[/quote]

Nowhere in the document that you linked to which I read does it say that someone who has resided here for 5 years must have proof of health insurance during that time, it does mention it as one of the conditions for someone to reside here more than 3 months, once again that is hypothetical and has never been enforced, maybe it will when some of these ISIS fighters who plaster their selfies all over the internet return with their tail between their legs.

The urban myth of proof of 5 years health cover came about through a self appointed forum "legal expert" who no doubt had an agenda interpreting "régulière" as meaning so. The more its repeated the more people will believe it which may cause unnecessary anguish to some people, perhaps the agenda? 

[idun]

As ever, I would suggest everyone keep every last bit of paper work in France.

Twice we have been asked for five years of proof of something, and for all I had kept 'everything' I am rather bordelique with my paper work. Found it all though. Nothing to do with health care, quite something else, but sometimes one is asked for things, which come right out of the blue.

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Isn't this what is being cited really, and seems rather up to date to me. I've highlighted the bit about inactifs, as it really only concerns them these days. edit, won't high light properly, just underline.

http://www.info-droits-etrangers.org/index.php?page=2-3-2#asileA2

Il obtient le droit de séjourner en France si :

    

il exerce une activité professionnelle : il peut le prouver grâce à

une attestation d'embauche d'un employeur par exemple.

      Il obtiendra un titre de séjour mention « UE-toutes activités professionnelles » d'une

durée équivalente à celle du contrat de travail ou, pour les

travailleurs non salariés, à la durée de l'activité professionnelle

prévue. Sa durée de validité est de 5 ans au maximum.

    

il est inactif (retraité par exemple) MAIS il doit disposer pour

lui et les membres de sa famille de « ressources suffisantes

      afin de ne pas devenir une charge pour le système d'assistance sociale" ainsi que d'une assurance maladie.

      Le montant exigé ne peut pas dépasser le montant du Revenu de Solidarité Active (RSA) : Voir Informations pratiques, travailler en France ou s'il est âgé de plus de 65 ans, du montant de l'allocation spécifique aux personnes âgées.

Il obtiendra un titre de séjour mention « UE-non actif » d'une durée maximum de 5 ans et dont la durée est calculée en fonction de la stabilité de ses ressources.

    

il est étudiant à condition de disposer de ressources, d'une

assurance maladie et de justifier d'une inscription dans un

établissement d'enseignement pour y suivre à titre principal des

études ou, dans ce cadre, une formation professionnelle.

      Il obtiendra un titre de séjour mention « UE-étudiant » d'une durée maximum d'1 an, renouvelable.

    

il appartient à la famille (conjoint, enfants de moins de 21 ans ou

à charge, ascendant à charge) d'une personne rentrant

      dans l'une des catégories précédemment citées ou de son conjoint.

      Il obtiendra un titre de séjour mention « UE-membre de famille-toutes activités professionnelles » d'une durée maximum de 5 ans.

Les étudiants ne peuvent être rejoints QUE par leur conjoint ou leurs enfants.

[EuroTrash]

It's still going on about mentions on your titre de séjour though, and does anybody bother with that these days? If you get a job or set up a business the healthcare follows automatically. Nobody asks to see a carte de séjour, well I've never been asked at any rate.

I think the cleiss explanation might be more how it actually happens on the ground.

http://www.cleiss.fr/particuliers/venir/resider/eee_cmu.html

(sorry can't do links)

and the bit that is of relevance to the OP is

"Le droit au séjour des citoyens européens au delà de trois mois reste soumis à certaines conditions, malgré les principes d'égalité de traitement et de liberté de circulation. En effet, le traité instituant l'Union européenne établit une distinction entre les personnes en mesure de pourvoir à leur subsistance (travailleurs salariés ou indépendants) et les inactifs qui doivent disposer de moyens financiers suffisants pour ne pas devenir une charge pour le système d'assistance sociale et d'une assurance maladie complète. Si les inactifs sont dispensés d'un titre de séjour, ils n'ont pas pour autant un droit de résider automatique en application de la Directive communautaire n°2004/38/CE du 29 avril 2004.

Si vous êtes un ressortissant européen et que vous n'ouvrez pas droit à l'assurance maladie légale de votre pays d'origine (au titre d'une activité professionnelle, d'une pension servie par un régime de base, d'une prestation de chômage, etc...), l'accès à la CMU de base et à la CMU complémentaire ne vous sera pas automatiquement accordé. Cet accès sera possible si vous avez la qualité de résident permanent. Si vous résidez sur le territoire français depuis moins de 5 ans, votre situation sera examinée par la caisse d'assurance maladie au cas par cas."

Etc

[Debra]

[quote user="Chancer"]In theory yes, in practice I think that is no more than a belief adopted by forumites, repeated so often (with glee against those considering moving here) that in the end everyone believes it.[/quote]Not long after the 07 changes there was a circular produced to give guidance to local CPAMs about exactly what could be classed as comprehensive health cover because they went through a period of rejecting everyone.  Having joined the CMU recently myself I can confirm that they did want proof that I had been legally resident for over five years and that definition included sufficient income and continuous healthcover.  In my case it was easy to prove because I had the tax returns and had been with CPAM all that time.

Someone said the UK just let you in the NHS based upon residence but that's clearly not true since Idun as already said that she had to get an S1 from France, 

My son had to go to hospital on his last trip to his Dad's in England and because his address was in France, they were going to invoice him.  They didn't in the end because I explained why he was still registered with our UK doctor and that he was over there to join the army and his Dad's address was on his army file as his residence so they just changed his admittance record to say he was resident at his father's address.  Our situation is/was complicated though and if it was just a simple case of him living in France, France being his competent state, and visiting over there then he would have been invoiced if he hadn't produced an EHIC or CEAM card.

[NormanH]

As far as the NHS is concerned this is what their website says:

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1087.aspx?categoryid=68&subcategoryid=162

If you move to England permanently or return to live in England permanently, you're entitled to free NHS hospital treatment.

Like other UK residents, you'll have to pay some NHS charges (for example, for prescriptions), unless you are exempt from these.

Different rules apply if you're visiting England temporarily

[Debra]

Yes but Idun's experience shows that if you've lived abroad they're going to check to make sure that they are your competent state and if they're not, ensure that the actual competent state pays via the S form.  Seems to be a new thing, along with invoicing people who go to hospital.  The UK has been behind France in these matters but they seem to be trying to catch up. 

[Debra]

Also, it's not automatic.  That same page says:

NHS hospital treatment in England

If you move to the UK, you will not be charged for NHS hospital treatment from the date that you arrive as long as:

• you intend to live permanently in the UK, and
• you have the right to live permanently in the UK or have a
  "route to settlement" that will allow permanent residence in due course

You'll be expected to prove that you meet these requirements.

Your spouse or civil partner and children under the age of 16 (under

19 if in full-time education) are also exempt from these charges if they

live with you permanently.

If you're not entitled to live in the UK permanently but you've

applied to the Home Office to enter or stay, you'll be charged for

hospital treatment until:

• your application is granted, or
• you have 12 months' lawful residence in the UK

If you have made a formal application for asylum, you will be exempt

from charges as long as your application (including appeals) is under

consideration. Those granted refugee status will continue to receive

free NHS hospital treatment.

If your claim for asylum is unsuccessful after all appeals, any

ongoing course of hospital treatment will continue to be free of charge

until you leave the country. 

However, any new course of treatment will be chargeable unless you're

in receipt of section 4 or section 95 UK Border Agency support.

Waiting lists

If there's a waiting list for the treatment you need, you'll have to join the waiting list.

Proving your entitlement

Hospitals are responsible for checking who should pay for NHS hospital treatment.

The hospital will ask you for evidence to prove that you intend to

live in the UK permanently. The documents that you provide will depend

on your circumstances.

Examples could include:

• documents showing the sale of goods or property overseas
• receipts showing shipping of goods to the UK
• evidence that you're looking for work
• evidence that you have bought property in the UK or have rented a property 
• papers that show you've applied for benefits
• evidence that your children are attending school in the UK 

The hospital will also ask you for evidence to prove that you're legally entitled to live in the UK, such as:

• your British passport, or
• permission from the Home Office

[Debra]

Which all sounds pretty much like they're following the EU rules in the same way that France are, except that only a year of lawful residence is required before they let you in anyway.

[EuroTrash]

I thought that at the same time as the NHS/DWP withdrew the residual S1 for early retirees, they also agreed that anybody who has lived in the UK and paid NICs for a certain fixed minimum period (quite low as I recall, 5 years or something) but who now lives abroad, will always be entitled to 'free' NHS emergency treatment when visiting the UK. So I suppose people who have paid enough NICs don't really need CEAM cards to visit the UK.

[idun]

When we first moved back we had to hand in an E106 which is now an S1 and when the pension kicked in were getting regular calls, very regular calls, to get the E121(S1) from France. Until the UK pension kicks in and then the UK becomes the competent state for us, then the authorities require an S1.

I must admit, I had believed that we had an automatic right to join the NHS and questioned every last thing, but that is exactly right and is as it is.

I have checked, for ex pats holidaying in the UK, emergency treatment is covered, but I believe that people have their UK EHIC to show the hospital.

We however, still have our attestations in France, and would just go and see anyone for anything, as much as anyone else can, as we still pay into the SS system in France. I say 'attestation', because that really is the only important bit, we both have Carte Vitales too, but the fuss about them is alway a bit beyond me, they are simply a convenience and nothing else. Ofcourse we no longer have a mutuelle, so take holiday insurance to cover the deficit in the payment.

[idun]

I just found this:

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/movingabroad/Pages/Introduction.aspx

I cannot remember seeing this page before, I don't think[8-)] Anyway it covers most things about moving abroad.

[AnOther]

This is the current legislation:

Para 23 refers

[url]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/1556/regulation/23/made[/url]

[idun]

That was interesting, so was para 16 too.

There is that interesting word 'need' mentioned and that is surely down to interpretation. I'd love to know what it meant in this context.