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Automatic French healthcare entitlement for EU expats at 65?


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There seems to be some confusion in the advice we are being given as recently-arrived UK-passport expats in France. One often-repeated school of opinion believes that under recent EU legislation, merely the fact of being over 65 entitles us to a full Carte Vitale, without any need (as we originally thought) to register as self-employed or any other method of getting onto the French healthcare system.

Can anyone confirm or deny this definitively so that, if necessary, we may then focus on a Plan B? Just by way of clarification, we have no automatic entitlement to routine French healthcare by virtue of previous UK employment although we hold UK passports and (currently) the EHIC for emergency care. Merci to all who make this forum so astonishingly helpful for new arrivals like ourselves!

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To join the French health system you will need an S1 from DWP in UK, you will be entitled to one if either of you are in receipt of a UK state pension. If you both are then you can get one each.

If you are not then employment or private insurance are your only options.

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[quote user="Spidworthy"]There seems to be some confusion in the advice we are being given as recently-arrived UK-passport expats in France. One often-repeated school of opinion believes that under recent EU legislation, merely the fact of being over 65 entitles us to a full Carte Vitale, without any need (as we originally thought) to register as self-employed or any other method of getting onto the French healthcare system.

Can anyone confirm or deny this definitively so that, if necessary, we may then focus on a Plan B? Just by way of clarification, we have no automatic entitlement to routine French healthcare by virtue of previous UK employment although we hold UK passports and (currently) the EHIC for emergency care. Merci to all who make this forum so astonishingly helpful for new arrivals like ourselves!

[/quote]

An extraordinary post, full of strange misconceptions.

1) I presume you mean that you are immigrants. Expats are those placed abroad by their company or something like the diplomatic service.

2) What has a UK passport to do with French healthcare?

3) What has age got to do with obtaining a Carte Vitale?

4) Why not look on the official French government site  since it is France that you are hoping to get your healthcare?  http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F12859.xhtml

If you have a UK OAP the UK will pay for your care by virtue of the S1 system, but that is because the UK is in   Europe.

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Norman, I think they mean that they have had careers outside the UK, though they hold British passports.

It is not the passport which gives entitlement to French health care but a UK state pension which entitles you to an S1 which can be exchanged for a French Carte Vitale.

But, Norman is right, the UK is in Europe!

An interesting point however is raised. If they were to buy back a number of years of UK state pension, as we know is possible at the moment, would they then be entitled to an S1, this being a cheaper option than forking out for private health cover year after year?
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I don't understand your last point, Wooly.

Surely, if you wish to buy extra years' of pension (or whatever it's called), you'd have to be in receipt of a pension in the first place?

I don't think you can just offer to buy a Brisith pension if you do not already have pension rights?

I've had a couple of pastis (well watered), what have you been on?[B]

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If you have some years but less than the minimum for a full pension you can buy back a limited number of years to top it up. You cannot buy into it if you have none.

If you have some years you're entitled to a pension pro rata.

If you are in receipt of that pension, however small it may be, you're entitled to an S1.

It's very simple but equally too easy to create confusion by introducing irrelevances.

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Thanks to all who have responded so far, and it is very obvious from the differing opinions that there definitely is a degree of confusion about this issue.

If we strip away all the ancillary issues (i.e. in our cases although British and holding NHS numbers which we have kept active by regular UK doctor visits) we have always worked abroad as expats and thus have no history of UK pension or other contributions, having opted not to top-up any NI while working abroad our entire lives) -- if you strip all this away, in our case we end up with first-hand testimony which motivated this thread, from two different 65+ British expats in the region where we have settled, who have been granted the full Carte Vitale purely on the basis of being 65+. No history needed, purely documentary proof (a) that they live and are registered here and (b) that the head of the household has reached the age of 65.

But this direct testimony appears to be contradicted by the responses above, and I am reluctant to get involved in the whole paperchase with the CPAM (if that is the correct dept.?) in our nearest centre without knowing exactly where we stand.

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There is no confusion, except yours over the term 'expat' which I explained above.

I repeat:

 Why not look on the official French government site  since

 it is France that you are hoping to get your healthcare?

  http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F12859.xhtml

Situation du retraité

Si vous êtes retraité d'un autre pays européen et que vous venez

vivre votre retraite en France, vous pouvez y transférer vos droits à

l'assurance maladie.

Pour ce faire, vous devez demander à la caisse du pays débitrice de

votre pension le document S1 (inscription en vue de bénéficier de la

couverture d'assurance maladie). Cette caisse doit ensuite l'adresser à

votre caisse d'assurance maladie en France.

Ce document permet votre rattachement au régime français de sécurité sociale.

Les membres de votre famille, qui vous accompagnent en France, doivent aussi demander le document S1 précité.

How do expect to know 'exactly where we stand' without consulting the appropriate and official body?

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[quote user="Spidworthy"]two different 65+ British expats in the region

where we have settled, who have been granted the full Carte Vitale

purely on the basis of being 65+. No history needed, purely documentary

proof (a) that they live and are registered here and (b) that the head

of the household has reached the age of 65[/quote]I can only tell you that in my 7 years in France, and equally long both on this forum and others, I have never heard of such a thing as qualifying purely on age nor

I suspect has anybody else here.

Apart from anything else

whilst 65 might be the state pension age in UK it has no particular

significance in the French system so on that level basing anything on being 65 or even

65+ makes no sense.

I wonder if the confusion is because they

have qualified under the 5 year rule under which if you have been

legally resident and fully covered for health care for 5 years, and you

have no other cover such as via an S1, then you become entitled to join

the health systems without further qualification.

And BTW, playing on the word 'expat' is nothing more than mischief making and Norman well knows what you meant. If you were 'expats' by his definition then you wouldn't be asking the questions you are !

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[quote user="Spidworthy"]Thanks to all who have responded so far, and it is very obvious from the differing opinions that there definitely is a degree of confusion about this issue.

If we strip away all the ancillary issues (i.e. in our cases although British and holding NHS numbers which we have kept active by regular UK doctor visits) we have always worked abroad as expats and thus have no history of UK pension or other contributions, having opted not to top-up any NI while working abroad our entire lives) -- if you strip all this away, in our case we end up with first-hand testimony which motivated this thread, from two different 65+ British expats in the region where we have settled, who have been granted the full Carte Vitale purely on the basis of being 65+. No history needed, purely documentary proof (a) that they live and are registered here and (b) that the head of the household has reached the age of 65.

But this direct testimony appears to be contradicted by the responses above, and I am reluctant to get involved in the whole paperchase with the CPAM (if that is the correct dept.?) in our nearest centre without knowing exactly where we stand.

[/quote]

With respect, any confusion that there has been, has been entirely on YOUR part.  I have not come across any "differing opinions" on this thread.

Further more, I suspect that you know the answer to your own question already.  The very fact that you are asking tells me that you doubt the validity of those anecdotal "evidence" that you have heard.

The answers might not be what you wish to hear but there we are. 

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NH showed the french rules, here are the UK rules

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/nireland/healthcare_ni/healthcare_help_with_health_costs_e/nhs_charges_for_people_from_abroad.htm

If we strip all this away............have you any entitlement to free treatment in the UK, other than emergency hospital treatment?

There is one thing though if you have actually been french residents for more than five years, then you/they should have cover in France. The CPAM should ask you where your S1 is though, if you/they are retirement age.  And then you should ask Newcastle for one, and if you have no entitlement they should provide a letter stating that you have no entitlement and then your cover will continue.

 I don't know what these other people have been doing either, they may have worked in France, or not. If they have UK benefits, a UK state pension is actually a benefit, then they should get an S1 from Newcastle and hand it in. If they have been in France longer than 5 years, then the same should happen as I mentioned above, if they have no entitlement.

The other thing is, IF you have not got an S1 won't you have to pay social security and CSG charges on all your income. I don't really know about this, only it would seem 'fair' as french pensioners do have to continue contributing  a percentage each month towards their health care and the CSG etc.

Our passports and even NHS card numbers are not some magic passe partout to give free access to anything any of us desire anywhere.

NB as french pensioners (paying health contibutions in France) living in the UK, believe me, Newcastle hassled the life out of us to get french S1's. The french took a year to issue them, but issue them they did.

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quote user="Spidworthy"................ in our cases although British and holding NHS numbers which we have kept active by regular UK doctor visits) we have always worked abroad as expats and thus have no history of UK pension or other contributions,.............unquote

Can I suggest extreme caution because you have been guilty of fraud against the UK tax payer.

If you have made no contributions, and live and work abroad, you are not entitled to free NHS care and having an NHS number is of no consequence. If you do not believe me (and you probably won't) then Google NHS and look at the section "if you move abroad." Maybe there are some extraordinary circumstances that exempt you, but I doubt it.

In which case you have got away with it. However do not rely on this being the case in the future. A relative worked in the NHS and tells of a woman who was being treated and required an operation. After the pre-med she said (probably not in full command of her mental facilities) that she just wanted it all over so she could go back to her villa in Spain. When she came round there was an invoice for £18000 sat on her bedside table.
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And BTW, playing on the word 'expat' is nothing more than mischief making and Norman well knows what you meant. If you were 'expats' by his definition then you wouldn't be asking the questions you are !

It is far from mischief making. It is a question of correct language.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2011/apr/11/mind-your-language-expat-brits

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Thank you, Norman, I enjoyed the article.

And one last thing for the OP to ponder on:

How likely is it that, at a time of severe financial slowdown, ANY country is willing to just pick up the tab for a foreign person who has never paid into its system and who, by virtue of their age, is statistically a heavy user of its health services?

As the over-used phrase goes (but maybe appropriate here) it's not rocket science, is it?[:D]

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Presumably the UK would do this since the criterion for access to the NHS is  residence, not contributions.

The fact that the UK is out of step with most of Europe in this is the root of much misunderstanding by British Immigrants in France, where the system is contribution based unless another country picks up the bill.

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Norman, I don't think that even the lax, generous NHS does this any more.

I believe that new immigrants have to wait a statutory minimum period to obtain an NHS number and start to use the services.  I might or might not have understood right so it would be good if some of the local residents there could give us an update on this?[:D]

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The fact is that a lot of people here have carte vitales but don't know the rules and couldn't explain why they are entitled to one - they just know that they applied, were able to produce all the documents that CPAM asked for, and were accepted.

You said "No history needed, purely documentary proof (a) that they live and are registered here" - just wondering what you meant by 'and are registered here'? If you mean have a registered business here, or have registered an S1 here, that answers your question. EU citizens are free to live in France as long as they aren't breaking any rules, they don't need to 'register' and AFAIK there is no mechanism for 'registering' them as residents. You get registered for various purposes as you go along - when you submit your first income declaration you get registered on the impots system, etc, etc.

As An0ther and possibly others have said - nobody is disputing that there are many expats aged 65+ who have qualified for cartes vitales, but not purely on the grounds of being over 65. Either they will have had S1s from their 'competent state', or they will have been accepted by CPAM either on the grounds of 5 years residence thus automatically qualifying, or on the grounds of ticking all the boxes including sufficient income and they will be paying contributions each year.

There is no EU ruling AFAIK that says that when you become 65, the rules no longer apply and you can simply choose any EU country you happen to fancy living in, nominate it as your 'competent state', and it has to accept responsibility for you.
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That is interesting ET, since I am certainly registered as were all of those who had to apply for cartes de séjour in a previous period.

My criminal record (clean I hasten to say) is held a Nantes as is the case with every French citizen. This system has the advantage that one can provide 'proof' that you have nothing on file against you (if required for a job application for example).

I wonder how more recent arrivals are followed, if they don't need to register. In addition how do they prove that they have been in France for more than 5 years if they need to?

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There is no need to register now. Technically the law says. that the authorities have to issue a carte de séjour if you ask for one but in practice, the préfecture don't want to be bothered issuing it and will usually just tell you that you don't need one.

New EU arrivals aren't followed, why would they be, they have the right to come and go as they please and they're of no real interest to the authorities as long as they behave themselves. There are rules that they are supposed to abide by and it's assumed that they do, nobody nannies them or checks. If they don't the only time it will be come an issue is if problems arise as a consequence of them not having done what was required, eg making sure they have healthcare sorted, so it's in their own interests to either cover their backs or else they're on their own with sorting out the mess if it happens. France has better things to do than keep tabs on the comings and goings of EU citizens - unless it happens to notice that they aren't paying their taxes, in which case it might take an interest.

It's not hard to prove how long you've lived in France or alternatively not lived in France. If you've been here legally for 5 years you will have 5 years of avis d'impot, with the first avis stating the date when you arrived in France. That's normally the first thing that is asked for and it is normally accepted as conclusive proof. If there's any dispute over it, your bank accounts will show where you were spending money week by week. It's so much easier to trace people's movements in this electronic age than it used to be.
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they have the right to come and go as they please and they're of no

real interest to the authorities as long as they behave themselves.

There are rules that they are supposed to abide by and it's assumed that

they do, nobody nannies them or checks.

The old Renseignements Généruax certainly did

http://www.sectes-infos.net/RG.htm

Now replaced by these guys:

http://lannuaire.service-public.fr/services_nationaux/administration-centrale-ou-ministere_168965.html
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