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English CMU scroungers?


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We are pre retirees who have had an E106 based on previous payments in the UK that has now expired. Our income is from a UK house rental and bank interest that is sufficient to pay our way in France now and will get better when our state pensions kick in.

All our income is declared in the UK and France and results in our not paying tax in France or any payment to CPAM (is this CMU?).


That is what IanS said and IanS also asked if he came into that category. Well straight talking I will say an resounding yes.

It isn't just his particular case but the rules need changing.


However those comments about supporting the local community by just living here. Well I wonder if the indigens should be grateful for this 'support' whilst having to cough up for his health care, even though they can't afford houses and some never will be able to, just have the right to pay their cotisations.

So I am to consider that we are some sort of benevolent colonialists by moving to France and doing our business and shopping in France..... give me strength.

The poor poor sods in France had no health cover apart from charity until five years ago. And I am glad it came in, but not like this, it is not right.


Hopefully enough people will cause a stink and get the rules changed.


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Well I wonder if the indigens




Well, I had figured out that the French were the French and the British/English/Welsh/Northern Irish/ those from Scotland were well...not French.

Now I am worried. Who on earth are the indigens? Are they related to the carboys?

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I don't know any English who do this (not saying there aren't, just I don't know), but I do know for certain that a lot of local Belgians and Dutch who do. My local impression is far from being scroungers the English are renowned for stupidly declaring all their income to the taxman and for not claiming their due.

I think this just sheer lazy ignorant journalism having a pop at the English (no figures, no names, no context) - and smells to me as if it is linked to a current attempt to blame "Europe" for France's domestic economic issues, in particular due to the elections after Germany.

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Or even as in indigent - meaning poor.

Of course it isn't only the English in France that apply for, and get, the CMU when many of them should be able to afford to contribute towards their own healthcare, just as they can afford to buy cars, Sky TV, pools, and all the other essentials of life abroad. There are plenty of Arab-origin scroungers and genuinely poor in the large towns in this part of France, but that subject has been done to death, so the article is timely in pointing out that there are English getting CMU when they should be able to pay. That's certainly the case here, it may well be that there are Dutch, Belgians, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Swiss etc doing likewise in other parts of France.

Note that I don't recall the article saying that the early-retired or those living off capital were actually defrauding the system, though if getting CMU they are probably not being as open as they could be about how they exist here. There are plenty more who don't bother registering for healthcare, either through ignorance or a fear that their financial affairs would come under scrutiny - they just use E111 or equivalent. They are not in the same category as the benefit-chasers of which there are also rather too many of English origin among other nationalities.

I totally agree that it is a flaw in the system that has been exposed and possibly even caused by the discontinuation of the titre de sejour requirement for European citizens, rather than any conscious desire by all to get something for nothing. I certainly hope that the system will be changed to plug this, as the French health and social security systems are 'indigent' enough themselves and need those who can contribute to do so. Just as those of us who work legally here have to pay in - why shouldn't those who choose not to work but could still afford to contribute do so too (words carefully chosen so as not to include those of retirement age or the genuinely unemployed)?

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Will said" why shouldn't those who choose not to work but could still afford to contribute do so too" Quite agree Will but the whole point to this is IF you are living off your capital AND declaring all of your income and the interest received does not reach the CMU threshold you do not and CANNOT pay into the French Health system.  That dos not make it right but neither does it make these people scroungers.

Another point that you are missing Will, is that there are many many "immigrants" from the UK here who have capital from redundancy payments or lump sum pensions, many of these people have no pension and spend their capital to improve or refurbish their houses and live off the interest from that capital.  Because the interest received is a relatively small sum and tiny if invested in France, even if you have £250K in the bank, even if you come above the CMU threshold,  you only pay a fraction of the amount into the French health system of that paid by an employed person.  Are these people scroungers?  If they are then that makes 90% of the English people I know here, scroungers too

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[quote]Interesting (?) article in today's Dépêche du Midi, about the "abuse" made of the CMU by English expats living in France...http://www.ladepeche.com/aff_art.asp?ref=200510180779&rub=011"LE FAIT DU JOUR...[/quote]

Comment printed in the same paper as a follow-up to the article, roughly translated below...:

“Courrier paru le 19/10/2005 - J.P.R. (Limoux-France)

Réaction à "Ces Anglais soignés aux frais de la princesse"

Bravo, Messieurs, pour votre article.

Plus les jours passaient et plus nous nous demandions si nous étions devenus un peuple d'idiots.

Ouf, les Français se réveillent. Il est temps ! La Sécurité Sociale est un bon départ. Nous sommes en effet, entourés, que dis-je, envahis par ces gens qui n'attendent que la réception de la carte Vitale pour se faire opérer ou seulement soigner "aux frais de la princesse" (or la princesse c'est nous, les Français), grâce à la C.M.U.

Mais ils habitent des maisons achetées à bas prix qui, après des réparations bien entendu, atteignent quelquefois le million d'Euros, parfois même plus. Elles ont été d'ailleurs agrandies, modifiées, améliorées et possèdent leur piscine.

Nichées souvent dans la campagne, elles y échappent souvent aux contrôles mais aussi des taxes qui devraient en résulter, Foncières bien sûr et d'habitation, puisqu'ils peuvent attester que leur séjour en France ne dépasse pas les six mois. Il arrive cependant que nombreuses soient celles qui sont louées à des compatriotes bien sûr, pendant l'absence des propriétaires, augmentant d'autant la période d'inhabitation déclarée. Les chambres d'hôte qui fleurissent partout sont aussi un moyen de rentabiliser l'investissement et sont occupées par des....amis et les transactions se font de la main à la main échappant ainsi à tout impôt et donc à tout revenu pour la collectivité.

Peut-être les restaurants peuvent-ils encore trouver un avantage mais déjà les pubs et des magasins qui leur sont presque exclusivement réservés commencent à faire leur apparition.

Que penser de tous ces marchés de campagne ? Passez donc un lundi à Mirepoix, ce bijou, vous y entendrez plus parler anglais que patois ou occitan !

Nous sommes contents d'avoir déjà un certain âge et d'être en retraite mais que vont pouvoir faire les jeunes de la région avec les prix pratiqués maintenant pour trouver maison ou terrain à leur portée pour construire ?

Cette nouvelle invasion a fait tripler les prix !

Merci Messieurs les Anglais...

18.10.2005 – JPR

Mail published 19/10/2005 J-P. R. (Limoux - France)

Reaction to "These English looked after at the expenses of the princess"

Cheers, Sirs, for your article.

As more days were passing, the more we wondered whether we had become people of idiots.

Ouf, the French awake. About time! The Sécurité Sociale is a good starting point. We are indeed surrounded, or should I say, invaded by these people who wait only for the delivery of their Carte Vitale to arrange surgery or be looked after at our expense thanks to the C.M.U.

But they live in houses purchased at low prices which, after repairs of course, are sometimes valued a 1 million Euros , sometimes even more. Besides which, these houses are enlarged, modified, improved and have their own swimming pool. They are often nestled deep in the countryside, where they not only often escape controls but also taxes, Foncières of course and d'Habitation, since the owners can attest that their stay in France does not exceed six months. Nevertheless it so happens that many are rented out, to compatriots of course, during the absence of the owners, so increasing the declared period of non-residency. The "Chambres d'hôtes" which appear everywhere are also a profitable means of making the investment pay for itself and are occupied by... friends and the transactions are done in cash, thus avoiding any tax and so bringing no income to the community.

Perhaps the restaurants can find some benefit there, bu
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I thought this was an interesting article and gives a clear inside in to the French in how they both perceive things and how they actually think.

A French friend recently complained because his mother had to wait two weeks for an operation. His complaint was that the English government were sending people to France because they could not cope and that these people were getting treatment for nothing. I had to point out to him that the UK government pay the French government for these operations and whilst I was sorry that his mum had to wait he could rest assured these English were not treated for free.

This is just one misunderstanding about the English here in France.

I agree with others that the demise of the CDS was not good. Indeed when I came here I often wondered why we didn't have such a system in the UK and would we have been better off with it. And let us not forget for those civil librettists that this was a form of ID card, but then also not lets get in to ID cards and civil liberties as I guess this is not the right thread in which to do so.

I also think, from what I have seen, that the idea that you effectively pay up front for your treatment but are then reimbursed if you are in the system is also fair. If you are not in the system and you can’t pay you don’t get treated (I am talking about none emergency treatment of course).

I also like the idea that I get a statement every so often telling me how much has been spent on my health and the percentage I have been reimbursed. It makes you aware just how much your health care really costs.

I think that people coming here and living off the income generated from their savings are pretty small fish in the general barrel of this discussion. A lot of them end up spending their capital and going home, we certainly see a lot of that round here. These, funny enough, are also the same ones that sit in bars moaning about the UK often saying how over crowded it is because of the immigrants and why should their money be spent on people who put nothing in. Yet these people are doing the same thing in France.

Europe has a problem in as much as we all live longer but the penalty is that we need healthcare (and other forms of care) for much longer. Taking in to account the slowing down now for several years of the birth rate there are not enough people putting money in to sustain the retired population. England is not the only country with a pension and health problem, neither is France.

My personal view is that more should be done to ensure those that are capable of putting money in do indeed do so. By this I do not mean just those who live of their savings but those that work without declaring their income.

Those who do work and not declare are the real ones who should be dealt with first either by incentive (a route the French government seems reluctant to go, see other threads on staff costs in France) or by making it so difficult for them that they just can't operate. Perhaps the police should stop to see people’s papers when they spot them working? Seriously how this could be done I don't have any idea but clearly something does need to be done and it is the French government that needs to do it.

Is, I wonder, the French reluctance do this driven by the fact that it would level the playing ground when it comes to blame in as much as people from all nationalities would be caught in the web including the worst offenders who are typically the French themselves. But then this would mean that the French could not heap all the blame for something they have got wrong on somebody else, in this case another nationality.

To my mind the French have two problems, the reluctance to change (we have done things this way since Napoleon so why change) and the 'not my problem' syndrome. I feel that the French government must take it's head out the sand, smell the coffee (as they say) and sort these issues out. The longer they leave it the deeper the problem will become. Perhaps it’s the elections coming up that is stopping them.


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Ron, with all due respects, I don't think I am missing the point - your comment is more or less one of the things I have been saying, though obviously not clearly enough. People living off capital or small amounts of interest which do not reflect their tre wealth are not in the same bracket as those who come to France and expect to get benefits without contributing - i.e. the real scroungers. They are not doing anything legally wrong.

I do still think what they are doing is morally wrong though, whether they can help it or not, and the system needs to change to ensure that all - including the black marketeers - contribute according to their means. That is what the CMU was intended to do, as far as I am aware, and with the system in its parlous financial state it needs to be looking at getting the income it needs, and increasing efficiency, rather than cutting services which is what I get the impression has happened with the British NHS.

Thank you Clair for the follow up article, which, even though some of the statements appear flawed (e.g. about local taxes). I think confirms what a lot of us have known about all along, however unacceptable it seems to some to mention it in public.

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I have just read an update to the reactions to the original article, frankly to many reactions to bring here and translate...

This is what they say about it. The relevant page is here:



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An interesting thread.  Allow me to make a few observations and then raise some new poiints.


Quite some heat seems to have been raised because the objectors to the status quo seem to have labelled the ex-pat the users of the CMU system as sroungers.  Surely it is the ABusers of the system that are the scroungers.


Objections seem to rest on the basis that people are able to get services for free - even though they may have the means finances to pay for them.  Finances yes - but no means because the system is not geared up to accept people who find themselves in this lucky position.  Some are now beginning to retract somewhat and saying it is the system that is wrong.  There I have to agree, but it is a much broader problem than I think is imagined.


The EU has set itself targets for increasing the mobility of its population across borders - and like it or not, the ex-pat (early) retirees are currently the ambassadors of this target.  Unfortunately Governements throughout Europe have not considered the consequences of this and the fact that they apply different rules and regulations regarding payments and benefits.  Consequently anyone making a cross border move is likely to find themselves living in a regime which is not set up to properly consider their abilty to finance their social wellbeing - either taking more or less than is fair.


Take my own situation.  I worked for nearly 20 years in the UK making not inconsiderable payments into the "system".  I then worked for 8 years in Germany under a reciprocal arrangement whereby I paid into the UK system for social contributions, but would receive reciprocal rights in Germany should I need to call on the "system" for support.  Income tax was paid in Germany however.  I now work entirely under the German system and make tax and social contributions to the German government.


So when I retire and move to France, whose social system is going to issue my E121?  Frankly at the moment I have no idea - and since German healthcare is financed somewhat similarly to France through contributions to healthcare companies, I am not sure that they will be overly pleased to provide my care through retirement when I have only made a relatively small contribution.  Or maybe it should be the UK governement to whom I shall not have made any significant contribution for over 10 years.  The EU want mobility but does not understand that it has to be able to fund the consequences of it, without getting into petty nationalistic arguements of who paid what when and to whom to fund what.


As a final observation, a number have complained that the "scroungers" (their words) just take from the system and have never paid into it.  Where these people are in fact people such as Ron, who are restricted by the system and not trying to milk it, and where for many years they have contributed hard won cash to the UK system, have they not indeed been helping to fund their local French (and especially in the British cases) largely agricultural communities through their tax payments made to the EU in support of the CAP?


This is a much more complex problem than the single issue of scroungers.   I don't have the answers.  I merely fear that when I have the luxury of being able to set up permenant residence in France I too will be labelled a scrounger by the Know-nots.

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[quote]An interesting thread. Allow me to make a few observations and then raise some new poiints. Quite some heat seems to have been raised because the objectors to the status quo seem to have labelled...[/quote]

Well put Andy, but for clarification ".......system and have never paid into it.  Where these people are in fact people such as Ron, who are restricted by the system and not trying to milk it"

As I told Will a few posts back, not me Andy, I will not qualify for CMU next year, but I know people who are restricted by the system and not trying to milk it, in some cases ironically due to poor investment choices in the UK resulting in a small amount of interest received in 2004. 

The French article posted by Clair is interesting but also inaccurate as Will says about taxes, but surely also about people not being resident and claiming CMU, it can't be done, can it?  If you claim CMU you are in the system and have to produce an attestation of revenue from the tax people, now if that attestaion is false, then these people are not scroungers but criminals  Perhaps the French wrath should be aimed at those who do live here and pay nothing at all in taxes or have all their gite income paid to non tax paying relatives in the UK avoiding both UK and French tax, or those as mentioned by others who keep their heads down until ill and then wave an EHC in the Doctor's face.  I have a Tde J  and had to provide evidence of income to get one, I see no issue with them being made compulsory for residents, but the Abusers would still find a way round this  

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This is clearly an emotive issue but I have to say that the French natives are blaming others, and particularly the Brits, for this abuse and abdicating their own responsibility at the same time

Most foreigners do not have the right to vote in France apart from European eletions.  So it was overwhelmngly the natives that voted in Jospin, Aubry etc in the 90s.  So not surprisingly the most left wing government in Western Europe introduced things like universal healthcare for all, 35 hour week etc.  So Jacques/Jacqueline do not blame the Brits for your voting habits.

There are approximately 4 million who benefit from CMU legislation.  I have no idea how many are foreigners, of those how many are Brits and how many of those do not pay anything.  But the total can only be a tiny percentage of all the beneficiaries.

Of course there are abuses but most expats are quite simply obeying the law requiring them, with certain exceptions, to affiliate to CPAM.  If in fulfilling their legal obligations they are receiving excellent healthcare at little or no cost that is the fault of the politicians who drafted the law and those that voted them in office.



Peter Owen

[email protected]

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even if you have £250K in the bank, even if you come above the CMU threshold,  you only pay a fraction of the amount into the French health system of that paid by an employed person.  Are these people scroungers?  If they are then that makes 90% of the English people I know here, scroungers to

Oh my word, do Brits in France really have that kind of money????    Maybe I should make more efforts to get to know some! 

Yours, a 1 in 10, feeling quite faint at the thought of all that luvverly dosh.

I have to say I'm quite envious of these people who manage to get money out of the French system.  I haven't benefited from a single centime since I've been here!   

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Some time ago, a few of us said that the annulation of the CdS would not happen due to how France worked. We were wrong but in the same vein, we also said that the CMU would now get seriously abused. It was pretty easy to see why this would happen.

When some of us first came here, we had to jump through legal hoops just to be able to live and work here. The strictest rule, was that you either needed to prove an income of over so much (too long back, probably could find it but....)start a business or be retired and prove your pensionable rights.

You could also at that time have independant health cover (I expect Peter's company had a few of them on their books), which helped many who were not able to get on the French health system.

What Clair, TU, Will and now I am saying is, that many others are simply saying "well the loophole is there, we are just taking advantage of it" Yes in some cases, fair enough. But I know several who are living in very nice places and are not only getting cheap health cover at 8% over 6900 euros or whatever it is now but in some cases getting FREE complementaire as well, through the CMU.

Now I don't give a monkeys what anyone says, it is 100% taking the p*** out of the system, when some of the Brits are living in rather grand places, many worth hundreds of thousands of euros and having absolutely free healthcare, forget the E106, you don't even need to bother with it. There are easy ways to slip around that and gain free health cover a few months after being in France.

Where the CMU falls down, is in the way many British workers are simply using it to work on the black and feel great, as not only are they gaining buckshee healthcare but don't even pay taxes either. Now however you look at that, you cannot simply say it is a loophole, that is a bluddy big tunnel and illegal !!!

In the instance of battypuss, that is exactly what it was meant for, before, people like her and her children would have simply not had anything or had to go to social services all the time.

France make makes many balls ups in the way charges are made, e.g a person with a nice big house and lots of dosh can in theory (and do) simply semi-retire over here and pay 8% of "declared" income and have for the greater part, cheap health cover, no matter how much actual cash is stashed away. With Ordures menagères, own a big house and the yearly amount payable, is based on the size and rateable value etc. Now why can't health cover for these folk, be linked to that or as is best, linked to savings, wealth and income ?

Here's another classic, our daughter works part time at McDo's and gets stopped plenty of different cotisations inc of course, health cover, we pay health cover for her through LMDE (students)as well as a top up. We also get penalised for her through our own health cover as her money were included in our annual tax returns and therefore are used in applying our health cotisations !! So we pay and pay again whilst the ones on the fiddle with CMU get away with just 8% !!

I will bet that something will be brought in soon to tighten it all up and for some it might be a rather testing time.

Remember, this is nothing to do with the UK as far as recipricol treatment, this is people coming here with no health cover (after an E106) and then paying something in to the system where once, you had to pay your own way and the CMU was left to the really needy to use, which was what it was actually meant for, to ensure the poor did not continue to slip in to the large abyss of having no health cover whatsoever.

Still if this loophole gets shut, we will be back with the E111 brigade again won't we ! Or as someone said the other day, it is still there and it does not even cost the 8% either !!

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Thank you Miki. I couldn't agree with you more.

The plain fact is that people like you and I have to give up 40% to 60% of our income in cotisations etc, those like Battypuss are refused help because they qualify for other benefits which take them just over a threshold, yet people who are, in material terms, far better off than any of us qualify for, and receive, assistance that is very nice for them, but they neither need nor warrant, from a system that is perilously underfunded anyway.

I am sure the government, which we did not get a chance to vote in, as somebody said, will have to look again at this problem. Somebody else said it is not a big problem, but sorry - it is perceived as being that way by the French. I don't agree that it is not significant. Here in Normandy there are communes where reportedly 60% of the population is British, and I think the vast majority of those are not working or on E121s so will be on the CMU. In other popular areas like the Dorgogne I can see it being similar. So our local CPAM will be in trouble (not for nothing does it have an English helpline).

I couldn't agree more that it is an emotive issue. I have received e-mails from several people who say they feel too angry about it to publicly post their true feelings. Like that small pocket of unrest in Brittany, it is something which may be blown up out of proportion (though I don't necessarily agree with that) but can only have a negative effect on the way the French regard us. In this case the French must be regarded as our hosts, not just our neighbours - so please don't forget that.

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This is a loophole and until closed will continue to be used legally. The anger felt will probably make some French 'dob in' those Brits that they feel are working illegally or breaking other rules that can get them into trouble - thus things will get harder all round.

It was suggested recently that the UK and French tax offices now have direct communications and that UK Banks might be required to make certain 'returns' due to increased money laundering rules (well if you have a UK bank account with a French address this does make sense) - this will mean that those who fill in a French tax return but probably forget the British bank account(s) could be in for trouble... So those who keep funds in the UK to keep them under the limit could find they have to pay and are fined also. Using an address in the UK might also not work as bringing funds over to France over a certain limit means you may have to prove its provenance.

I don't like the cottisations I pay but I can at least sleep at night. Not a do-gooder, just cannot afford fines and any payouts due to sheer stupidity.


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Will, help me out here, I am struggling to assimilate enough information to enable me to come to a sensible view on all of this.

You state that you pay an average of 50% in cotisations, but as the posting is relative to healthcare could you tell me what is the actual percentage for health cover for a self employed person now.

Looking at my book from 2001 (out of date?) it quotes “ annual rates outside of agriculture are as follows” “ Health benefits - 0.60% on the first 28224€ then 5.90% between 28224€ and 141120€” for employees it quotes “Payable to Urssaf Health 0.75%”

Looking at the Urssaf site today, it quotes a figure for those working on Cheque D’emploi” of 0.70% for cotisation de maladie.

I understand that there are employer charges as well.

If these figures are anywhere near correct then the real issue here, for me, is not the system but people who may abuse the system by failing to declare all of their income sources, and therefore are not paying their fair share.

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OK we have all read the accounts of what people should pay or don't pay, how they sleep easy knowing that they pay for their health care Oh right and how hard done by all you lot who work here are.

But I have yet to read from anybody, what a British person who has money in the bank in the UK or France and who completes a full and accurate tax return, which means that their INCOME as defined by French Law, does not exceed the CMU threshold, is supposed to do.  Make voluntary payments?  Go to CPAM and make a donation?

EXCLUDING the scroungers who declare nothing and pay nothing, to me "exploiting a loophole" means that there is a deliberate decision by a person to exploit a situation.  That is not the case for many here.  All that is happening is people are paying the bills that they receive.  Don't blame them, blame the system.  If the situation was changed so that capital was taken into account to the point where health costs become prohibitive, just how many refurb projects would be cancelled and at what cost to the local economies?.

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Ron "...We have all read the accounts of what people should pay or don't pay, how they sleep easy knowing that they pay for their health care Oh right and how hard done by all you lot who work here are."

Easy to say for someone who simply does not really know how it works isn’t it Ron ?

Why take the Michael out of folks who work hard and really get hit in the pocket from the stiff cotisations that we have to pay, whether salaried or self employed, only to see Brits coming over in supposed semi-retirement only to find their little B&B, Gîte(s) will not quite cover their new laid back lifestyle, so off they toddle to do little odd jobs (as well as BIG jobs) and find they need health cover, so now they have found that if you declare yourself at CPAM as semi retired and not a lot of income, you can hit the jackpot and pay as much as 8% for your obligatory health care and by not declaring all global income honestly, blimey can you get cover on the cheap.

"....But I have yet to read from anybody, what a British person who has money in the bank in the UK or France and who completes a full and accurate tax return, which means that their INCOME as defined by French Law, does not exceed the CMU threshold, is supposed to do. Make voluntary payments? Go to CPAM and make a donation?"

No, sure he will take what he can get but what person leaves the UK with such poor funds then ? Are you saying that someone is coming here with less than 6950 euros (CMU threshold) a year to live on ?

".....EXCLUDING the scroungers who declare nothing and pay nothing, to me "exploiting a loophole" means that there is a deliberate decision by a person to exploit a situation. That is not the case for many here."

Oh Ron, I think you will find it is becoming a well known way to get health care on the cheap and a lot of us saw it coming. Unless you have been in the position of seeing your income get quite depleted by the many cotisations, then I guess the CMU might look fair but to many that work here and see folks working on the black and getting CMU, it is bluddy galling to say the least. Even those that came here years ago, knew their health cover would be expensive, now they know it won't be, would they still be coming if the old rules were still in place ?

"....All that is happening is people are paying the bills that they receive. Don't blame them, blame the system."

I think we have all said that but as it was rather a rushed in regulation, how it is now being abused, was not seen at the time and now it is being aired all, over the hexagone, I do think it will now be looked in to.

"....If the situation was changed so that capital was taken into account to the point where health costs become prohibitive, just how many refurb projects would be cancelled and at what cost to the local economies?"

Sorry but I think you put too much sway in to what the Brits do with their money here, so what if refurbishments were weakened, that might well suit the French and possibly allow the youngsters to pick up a first time property, I don’t know that for sure of course and neither do your thoughts about the local economy have a guaranteed effect. I thought people come here for the life, do they think that in semi retirement the French should be paying or at least subsidising their health costs, as they are refurbishing a house in which, when sold the person can put the nice profit in their pocket and go back to the UK, cause for sure, that is what the huge majority of Brits will do eventually.


Looking at my annual health payments, it appears to work out at around 8% and that is without URSSAF etc plus don’t forget other annual deductions AND retirement, all of which the CMU folks don’t have to pay and that is what some of us are on about. Those that work and are on CMU, get away without a large amount of other cotisations that are due by us workers.

Look at this figure :

Earnings 44,000€

Deductions for both CMU and Santé Obligatoire, say with RAM.

This means that the CMU folks have got health cover roughly the same in relation to the workers but without all the other deductions. All things being equal, then those declaring everything upfront and honest and no work on the side, then no problems as far as I am concerned but we know that people are not doing that and do not want to pay their fair whack for health cover.

BUT the lower amount declared, the better the person on CMU is against the “worker”

What do others with salary's pay percentage wise as it is not right to tell others one's income. I know our daughter has many stoppages, then impot at the end of the year to be taken in to account.

Hope that puts some sense in to this debate ?

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The cotisations in France are not at all like national insurance payments made in the UK. As a former wages clerk I find french pay slips almost incomprehensible and that is after all these years.

 The actual amount taken for health care stoppages dropped several years ago and the CSG's and other nasty taxes etc came in to gather more money in to fill the hole in the Secu's budget.

It doesn't stop the whole caboodle being very high though for those who pay. 

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"Oh Ron, I think you will find it is becoming a well known way to get health care on the cheap and a lot of us saw it coming."

Sadly though Miki the politicians/lawmakers did not - do they ever ?

From reading this thread there seems to be 2 types of "scrounger"

a) those who are capital rich but genuinely income poor - these comply with rules therefore are entitled legally (but according to some, not morally) to aid under CMU rules

b) those who lie about their low income and are therefore not entitled to that which they claim. These people are thieves and deserve any punishment they get. If we know any then we have a duty to turn them in.

I do not subscibe to the view that there are loopholes in laws - just badly framed legislation where the true culprits are the lawmakers NOT the people making legal claims.



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