English CMU scroungers?

[Will]

Leslauriers asked me: "You state that you pay an average of 50% in cotisations, but as the posting is relative to healthcare could you tell me what is the actual percentage for health cover for a self employed person now."

I'm afraid I can't answer that for a number of reasons. First, until one has been in business for at least three years (in practical terms more like 4-5 years) cotisations are paid at URSSAF's estimate of what an average person earns, unless you are eligible to reach agreement to pay a lower sum. So what I pay now is not really truly representative. Second, because what I do as a self-employed person doesn't have an exact equivalent in the French system it hasn't yet been sorted out to which caisse some of my cotisations should be payable, so I don't know what they are or will be. Third, I think it is meaningless to just consider the healthcare or any other element in isolation, particularly as people seem to love comparing cotisations in France with NI charges in Britain and the two systems are far from equivalent, also as TU says the healthcare part is partly hidden in extras like CSG and CRDS anyway. Fourth, I am paid in sterling and pay cotisations in euros, so any percentage is distorted by exchange rate fluctuations.

Miki asked "What do others with salaries pay percentage wise?" (sorry, my sub-editor's brain had to get rid of the apostrophe). Looking at a recent pay slip - not mine - the employee typically pays 22% as cotisations and the employer a further 40% on top.

I can tell you my current healthcare only contributions, which amount to 1314€ this year, and I am sure will have to be adjusted upwards. This is conveniently between the 0.6% and 5.9% figures mentioned. On current figures, and looking at payments made by salaried people, I am confident that the figures mentioned by many as cotisations of 40% to 60% are pretty much on the ball for most self-employed.

Note that these sums do not include tax, for either employees or self-employed; neither do they take into account top up health insurance.

[Clair]

There’s no point in dissecting the problem down to who does or does not pay, who does or does not scrounge (for lack of a better word).

It’s a problem of perception.

You either work or you don’t work.

If you work, you’ll be perceived as paying your way through your income, just like any other working person.

If you do not work (pre-retired, retired, unemployed…), you’ll be viewed with suspicion and are likely to be seen as a “scrounger“, as someone who does not contribute and gets everything for nothing.

Most French people I know aren’t interested in finding out if the Brits who live here have legal and independant financial means,

What they see is someone from another country, who has bought a local property at a seemingly high price, has spent money doing it up and installing a pool, who travels back and forth at the drop of a hat, who has a constant flow of foreign friends all summer and WHO DOES NOT GO TO WORK,

Most French people just about make ends meet and THEY GO TO WORK just to afford what a lot expats in this forum take for granted, their due, what they are entitled to. Even in retirement, most French people have to watch their centimes and few live as well as you do.

Is it any wonder the local French people resent this life of, to them, apparent luxury? Is it any wonder they ask how you can afford to support yourself if you don’t work, particularly if you are pre-retired?

From that perception, they start thinking that THEY are paying for YOUR COMFORT and is it any wonder?

Do not fool yourself into believing this does not apply to you because you are here perfectly legally and because you are entitled to by the rules.

They might not say it to you, but even your neighbours are wondering about your means…

In their view, THEY (and every other working person in France) are working to pay for the advantages YOU benefit from.

This is not an attack, it’s just a clarification…

[Will]

Clair, I couldn't agree with you more.

But however much you say it, there are those who will take what you say personally and try to justify themselves here. They would, I think, do far better by making it clear to the French people around them, whose country they have chosen to live in, and who pay heavily in taxes and social charges, that they want to contribute to, rather than take from, the community.

[Tonyf]

I think Ty's family member hit the nail on the head.

I am also sick of paying high cotisations and see many Brits, in expensive houses, claiming benefits in the Uk or France and sometimes in both countries, taking the p out of me and all the others who work for a living in FRance.

Furthermore, just because the British system has allowed itself to be exploited by all and sundry, does not mean that British people can can over here and do the same to the French.

[Ron Avery]

[quote]Clair, I couldn't agree with you more. But however much you say it, there are those who will take what you say personally and try to justify themselves here. They would, I think, do far better by ma...[/quote]

"They would, I think, do far better by making it clear to the French people around them, ...........and who pay heavily in taxes and social charges, that they want to contribute to, rather than take from, the community"

Sorry Will, I normally respect what you say, but that must be the biggest load of tosh you have ever posted Just who do you people think you are? Is the Green-eyed monster at work?  Perhaps some of us who are "scrounging" here by not working, worked for longer than you will ever work in France and deserve our retirement or our jobs forced us to retire. 

So who are "They" Will?

a) All the English here who do not work? 

b)  All those who are on E106's or E121's

c) All those who have a few bob tied up in the UK from their house sale or redundancy and do not pay 50% tax here?

 d) Those English who deliberately under state their income in FRance so as to claim CMU

So perhaps one of the hard done by employed here can tell us at what threshold of tax, social charges and health care charges are we excused from taking sackcloth and ashes and making  it clear to the French around us that we would like to pay more for our health care.

I do not feel any any way that I should go up the village and explain myself to my French neighbours and friends who I do business with, get supplies from and help keep in business with as much work as I can give them.  You have a choice if you don't like the system here and the taxes you pay, go back to the UK.  Personally I have no problem with living here or the  taxes I pay, thy are a darnsight less than I paid in the UK Oh and yes I do sleep OK as well.

[Miki]

Ron....."Sorry Will, I normally respect what you say, but that must be the biggest load of tosh you have ever posted. Just who do you people think you are? Is the Green-eyed monster at work? Perhaps some of us who are "scrounging" here by not working, worked for longer than you will ever work in France and deserve our retirement or our jobs forced us to retire."

OK, Will was possibly a litle OTT and for Will that is very rare but, I kind of see where he is coming from but I have always thought it best to say sod all about how one survives or with how much, unless cornered and asked and even then !! At the end of the day, it is no one else's business but if I was pushed and told I was a "scrounger" then they would get it "both barrels between the eyes" on the facts of how much I have to pay here and how much their compatriots pay in the UK for the same commerce!!

" Ron....

a) All the English here who do not work?

b) All those who are on E106's or E121's

c) All those who have a few bob tied up in the UK from their house sale or redundancy and do not pay 50% tax here?

d) Those English who deliberately under state their income in France so as to claim CMU"

I hope you are not being deliberately awkward but I and I believe others, have tried to explain and I hope most have understood but, what the complaints are mostly about, is those that get health cover through CMU but do not offer up all their global earnings, especially their jobs on the side.

Another point that has to be repeated to my mind, is that someone can come here with a nice few bob and I mean bucket loads, have no "income" and get CMU along with their French neighbour and in some cases, get a much better deal by declaring sod all income and thus get CMU complementaire as well, thus getting full health cover for nix's and all the time, having the forementioned sackload of euros. If that comes across as fair, then my argument is useless.

Ron "....So perhaps one of the hard done by employed here can tell us at what threshold of tax, social charges and health care charges are we excused from taking sackcloth and ashes and making it clear to the French around us that we would like to pay more for our health care"

You really do not have any idea do you, or why ask that question ? The charges against workers, self employed and salaried are well known for those that live here and work. How often does say, Val for instance, have to tell all and sundry, just how much their company has to earn, to just about stand on the spot.

Ron, if you are declaring all your global wealth and do no "part time work" then why are you bothering to stand up for ALL those Brits claiming CMU ? I am sure you cannot be so blinkered as to honestly believe that all are like you and the rest of us are just telling porkies about how much we pay and how much CMU "scoungers" are getting away with........

"...You have a choice if you don't like the system here and the taxes you pay, go back to the UK"

Here we go !! That old expat chestnut pokes its head out once again !! Ron I hoped to expect a little more from you than that. It is just the same as one saying something like "don't like that new resto in town" Answer; Well bluddy well go home then !! Can't anyone have an honest pop at things here, for the stupid fear of being told that..................

Come on, life is about discussing and giving opinions, if all was well here and no problems at all, you wouldn't be able to move for people from all over the world and your little part of France would be over run, so be grateful that there are problems and not just small ones either.

If you stand back from your own stand point and read Clair's post as it should be read, then she has a very valid point overall surely ?

[Russethouse]

Isn't it just a question of honesty? If you are declaring all your global income - HONESTLY then you have nothing to worry about. (and S*d the neighbors!)

If you think you are being 'clever' and not declaring Uk investments, the little bit of ebaying, gardening or handy man tasks you do, then watch out.

[Will]

Ron, there's no point in me trying to answer your question or even contribute any further to this topic because you just cannot get your head around the fact that I am not referring to you, or people in your position, as scroungers. You continue to take things as a personal insult.

I normally hate the misued word 'integrating' but that is what we are talking about in this case. When foreign people make the effort to be part of the community their neighbours will know them as the honest citizens they are, rather than look at them with the sort of suspicions that Clair so well described. Of course there is no need to stand up and justify yourself, your actions and attitudes will suffice. Although I am sure that you personally are perfectly well integrated, and so the remark won't apply to you anyway, I'm still sorry that you chose to describe the idea as the biggest load of tosh I have ever posted.

[Miki]

Will "....I'm still sorry that you chose to describe the idea as the biggest load of tosh I have ever posted."

Quite right too Will, I know of bigger tosh than that, that you have posted

[Ron Avery]

I accept that now people are saying that only those who fail to declare their income honestly in order to avoid paying health charges and other taxes are scroungers, but that was not how I read some of the earlier posts.

I am really not being awkward or standing up for scroungers, all I am saying as I have done before, that IF you declare your income honestly and perhaps have some capital in the bank and the interest on that does not take you out of CMU, that does not make you a scrounger.

I accept that CMU is not for cash rich Brits, but please accept that there are some people here on CMU who are complying with French law and had no intention of scrounging anything when they came here.  However, I do not accept Clair's assertions covers all the French, perhaps where she lives and in the areas that are Brit heavy there may well be a problem, but certainly not where I live.

Interestingly, I have been following the feedback on the original article and there has been more argument on this Forum on this topic than in the paper, in fact some of the replies were critical of the tone of the article. 

[Dave]

Hi,

in our first year in France my wife and i presented ourselves at the Hotel des Impots office and with the help of a nice helpful man filled in a declaration, we explained that we would be living off capital from the sale of our house in the UK (not much left after renovation costs)for the first year and then in the second year i would need to work and register. I eventually did register and am paying heavily into the French system. when the declaration was due for the second year we were summoned to the Impots office again and asked what we had been living on since moving to France as we had declared no income, we explained and had to fill in a form detailing all investments held elsewhere and were warned that if the powers that be did not like our answers then they had the right by law to access ALL our accounts in the UK and would do so. My point is that if you come to France and set up a B & B or whatever but show NO source of income (when you have money invested in the UK)how can you avoid the attention of the authorities here? is it that people just do not exist here ...on paper anyway. I also read somewhere that we now need to apply to CPAM for a card so that when we travel back to the UK we can receive 'Free' healthcare, can anyone shed any light on that? I would just finish by saying that we are very happy to be living in France and paying into the system (we also like to complain along with our French neighbours at the high charges...!) don't know if this makes any sense but at least I have it off my chest

Dago

[Tonyf]

[quote]Ron, there's no point in me trying to answer your question or even contribute any further to this topic because you just cannot get your head around the fact that I am not referring to you, or people ...[/quote]

Hi Will and Ron

I've just looked at some of Will previous postings ad this is one NOT the biggest load of tosh he has ever posted

Sorry

However, nice subject and debate.  I just wonder how we would feel in the Uk if an Estonian man, who owns property in his home country, comes to Britain, gets a flat, obtains benefits, forgets to declare his assets at home, uses our health service for free, gets casual/black labour as a painter and decorator etc etc  I think we may be peeved.

I know of a few cases of Brits in France who are actually claiming French benefits whilst living in their house (no mortgage, value 100k+) and with money in UK accounts! 

Good luck to the french authorities in weeding out these people. I just wish they were a bit more pro-active.

[Will]

I agree with you there Tony and Miki.

Having thought about it I think I am talking about French perceptions, which is what I understood Clair's postings about the articles were all about, whereas Ron and some others are talking about the legal situation and moral implications, along with the costs of working legally in France, which are  separate issues though nevertheless interesting debates in themselves.

I quite agree Ron & Co are here perfectly legally, that isn't under question, and I accept what Ron says about there not being a problem where he is. The reason why I am rather sensitive to the issue is that in Normandy and Brittany there is a very strong perception among a few of the French that things are just as in the article. This is something that the French tend to talk about among themselves rather than openly to the English, so it is easily missed, but it does often come out when they know that we are paying our full dues here, like them, so perhaps they feel that we are on their side.

I don't think people on this forum suffer from the same perception of the British milking the French system with no visible means of support - I know I don't, despite what others may think. So my argument is that defending oneself on this forum is not necessary, but correcting the French misperception may be, if you come across such attitudes.

Unfortunately when there are those few English who are truly milking the system by living on benefits surrounded by the trappings of wealth, as mentioned by Tonyf, it makes our PR job more difficult.

[Clair]

[quote]I agree with you there Tony and Miki. Having thought about it I think I am talking about French perceptions, which is what I understood Clair's postings about the articles were all about, whereas R...[/quote]

Will, you're right in saying my posting was about perception.

When I posted the original article, I was not pointing the finger at anyone, I was not ranting or venting, I just wanted to highlight how a lot of English people are perceived.

We all know the article contains a lot of generalisations, misconceptions and misunderstandings. It aims to stir up bad feelings from some French quarters, which find it easier to blame "foreigners" generally rather than look at the system that allows the "abuse" to exist. To them, it IS abuse merely by the fact it is done by a foreigner.

Nevertheless, the article is no different from articles printed by some UK papers at times of social discontent.

Like Will, I am sensitive to the issue because this is something I have "suffered from” when I was living in England, particularly in the Thatcher years. Misconceptions, misrepresentations and sweeping generalisations made about French people in the press... Sounds familiar?

My sensitivity antennae twitched when I read the article and I wanted to raise the subject as a way of highlighting the issue.

As an aside: Ron, I believe you are being naive if you think that what I said about the French people view does not apply to you.

You seem to think they would be nasty or unpleasant towards you if that was the case, therefore the absence of unpleasantness must mean they don't, but as Will said, this is something they talk amongst themselves, not to you or with you. They certainly would not talk about it when you're with them, but talk about it, they do.

Clair

[Ron Avery]

Will

Absolutely agree with this. no tosh this time but the original article was in the SW press, not the NW. So should I be worried?

I have been following the reaction to the article with some interest and almost all the respondents " are shocked"

Many also believe that the Brits on CMU have social security cover still in the UK ( is that possible?) Another said "there is a social security card in the UK that covers treatment in France so no need to get the CMU"

Another one was  "It will be necessary that I wait until March to profit from the CMU!!!!! Whereas these people have a right to it after 3 months here?

Another poster said "Yes, I am very shocked. I am registered with the CPAM. But my wife is French and lived in England for 34 years without paying anything.   Not one of my compatriots moaned like your journalist.  Do not forget that English residents add much to the local economy, with their investment, the use of the local craftsmen and the money we spend to live here,  not to mention that many of us also pay taxes.  ( No, I did not write that one myself)

[Teamedup]

Dago, yes you should apply to you Caisse for a european health card for your trips back to the UK. We have never been asked for them yet, but that is not to say that we will not be in the future.

[Teamedup]

RA

I live in a village with no other brits, at one time there was another english lady but she has moved. There is one english lady in a village about 4 miles away.

Am I concerned about perception, I am. Could it affect me, I believe it could.

[Teamedup]

RA

I live in a village with no other brits, at one time there was another english lady but she has moved. There is one english lady in a village about 4 miles away. There are brits in the region, they all work, work usually brought them to the region.

Am I concerned about perception, I am. Could it affect me, I believe it could. Even though we don't have the problems that other regions seem to have.....

[Justef]

For those of you who feel they are morally wrong to accept cheap/free French health cover and would feel happier if they were contributing more, I have unwillingly discovered how this can be done.  If you don't provide proof of earnings on which your contributions are calculated, there is a regulation which allows CPAM to charge you as they see fit - in my case, over 10 times more than should have been calculated!

And why did I not provide proof of earnings?  Oh I did, but they were somehow "lost" at CPAM, Carcassonne.  I contested the decision, and enclosed my proof of earnings again - all posted to CPAM by recorded delivery.  Guess what? They have disappeared again and the decision stands.

I wonder how often this sort of thing happens, and what conclusions can be drawn?

[Quillan]

[quote]For those of you who feel they are morally wrong to accept cheap/free French health cover and would feel happier if they were contributing more, I have unwillingly discovered how this can be done. If...[/quote]

Are you refering to the letter you may have recieved in the last 8 days?

It scared the sh1t out of me to but then it does say on the bottom, which strangely I and others missed, that if you have sent your information in then to ignore the letter. This came up in conversation today with some friends who actually went there with the letter and were told that it's impossible to proccess all the forms received in the time allocated by the computer so it just turns out loads of these letters. The lady told them that probably half of France gets them. Fortunatly I had my letter already stating my contribution which I had copied and sent back with the letter and a cover note.

So don't panic yet if the above is what has happened.

[Miki]

Chris,

The one you have received is certainly happening how you say it is.

I have had a few calls in the last few days from people panicking and one quick call to CPAM, confirmed that they have made a ricket in sending out masses of letters, knowing full well that the majority are a complete waste of time, as the large majority of people sent the letter have already filled their return in and indeed, most will have already been given their "new" rates to pay in 2006.

[Coco]

It scared the sh1t out of me to but then it does say on the bottom, which strangely I and others missed, that if you have sent your information in then to ignore the letter. This came up in conversation today with some friends who actually went there with the letter and were told that it's impossible to proccess all the forms received in the time allocated by the computer so it just turns out loads of these letters. The lady told them that probably half of France gets them. Fortunatly I had my letter already stating my contribution which I had copied and sent back with the letter and a cover note.

So don't panic yet if the above is what has happened.

Thanks for that Chris (and Miki).  We got one of those last week and having sent the original information in well before 15th September I was also a little nervous as to why they were sending us a letter dated 20th Oct asking for the information again.  I thought that perhaps they didn't believe us and that we would get whacked with huge new payments (I just don't trust URSSAF since my first aweful experience with them back in 2003 when they took over 60% of my salary!).  I did spot the sentance at the bottom saying not to worry if this letter had crossed with mine, but as there was more than a 6 week timelapse between sending the info and the latest letter being sent out, I was a little concerned.

I think I'll still go and see them anyway, but at least now I know I'll just get the explanation that Miki did.  Phew!!

[Justef]

Yes, I have received the letter to which you refer in the last 8 days, but this time from the Tarn CPAM, as we have recently moved.  I too had already received my calculations (Correctly this time), so only panicked everso slightly.  I rang CPAM and was told it was a computer error, and to ignore it.

The much more serious problem I was referring to, was for the last health year in the Aude.  I have been through an official complaints procedure, and it was here that the documents disappeared from a registered envelope!

[WendyG]

See article in Tuesday's Daily Telegraph