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CPAM info requirement


Chuck&Betty
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We came to France in October 2004, with an E106 which covered us until December  31st 2005.  After the expiry of this  we visited our local CPAM office who told us to enquire whether we could get an extension for another year to the E106, and if not to get a letter confirming such from the UK.  As my husband had been self employed, we knew there was only the possibility of one year's cover through the E106 (and I was made redundant in 2003 and therefore was included on my husband's E106). So we requested the said letter. 

We returned to the CPAM office in March 2005 with the DWP letter and details of all our income for 2005 for them to calculate our cotisation for 2006.  We  were told they wanted income information for 2004, not 2005.

We were advised by a friend (who has had lots of conflicting information from their CPAM office) that the best thing would be to wait a couple of  months by which time we would have filled in our impots return for 2005 and we could take that as our proof of income.

We returned to CPAM yesterday - with a copy of the impots return - and again they asked for information relating to 2004.  Does anyone know why they want 2004 information (our UK E106 covered us for 2004-2005) - Surely 2006 cotisation would be based on 2005 impots (income) return.? Also - we weren't tax resident in France during 2004... so why should our income for that year be of any consequence to the French systems??

 

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.. so why should our income for that year be of any consequence to the French systems??

Because that's the rule!

It means of course that if you earned a shed load in 2004 the you will pay a shed load for your cover, but that's the rule!

It's all to do with the fact that the Tax year and the CPAM year are not in sync thus for 2006 the 2005 RFR figure is not available so the 2004  RFR figure is used. RFR being Revenue Fiscal d'Reference ie taxable income.

They do, by the way, reserve the right to ask you to provide documented proof that your declaration is accurate, in a friends case they came back two years later to ask for bank statements etc.

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I will confirm that answer too. Everything we have to apply for regarding bourses,CROUS etc for next year has been based on our income for 2004. It is also true that the more you earn,the more you pay in CPAM payments and can come as a hell of a shock too!
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Debra, 2006 is correct.

Zeb, read the previous posts, CPAM payments are not connected to fiscal residency in France in the way that you imply, they are based upon income from the year two years before.

In the worst case scenario you could end up paying 8% after the first 6965€ based upon a year when you received redundancy, pension lump sum, Isa or Tessa income and a maturing endowment policy. All of which are tax free in UK but could add towards the CPAM charge if you manage to get your timing wrong.

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To be more precise (or pedantic) if you apply between Oct 1st and 31st Dec it is based on the year before.

Par exemple :

- Si vous faites une demande de CMU de base entre

le 1er janvier 2006 et le 30 septembre 2006, c'est le revenu fiscal de

référence indiqué sur votre avis d'imposition, ou de non imposition, de

l'année 2004 qui sera pris en compte.

- Si vous faites une demande

de CMU de base après le 1er octobre 2006 et jusqu'au 30 septembre 2007,

c'est le revenu fiscal de référence de l'année 2005 qui sera retenu.

From what you have said its unlikely to help you though.

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Thanks for the information  Leslauriers - we can't say we feel too ecstatic about this as we have already paid tax to the Inland Revenue and  NI contributions for 2004 -

But you mentioned redundancies etc as being included for the calculation...so  I can ask one more question?..We have not yet sold our house in the UK - but if it did sell in 2006, would that 'lump sum' come into the CPAM calculation for 2008  ?

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[quote user="Debra"]They said they moved over in October 2004, leslauriers, so if they sell their house after the new double taxation treaty is in effect, then the house sale proceeds will come under the new rules and they'll have to pay CGT to France (depending on whether the house has been owned for more than 15 years or not).[/quote]

Yes that's why I said "if it was subject to capital gains tax" the treaty as far as I know is liable to ratified end

2006 but more likely 2007, I am also unaware of their circulmstances regarding how long they have owned the property.

So thanks for explaining my somewhat cryptic reply yours is probably more helpful to them - possibly best that they sell quickly if necessary.

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Looking ahead, les lauriers said:

<i>Par exemple :

- Si vous faites une demande de CMU de base entre

le 1er janvier 2006 et le 30 septembre 2006, c'est le revenu fiscal de

référence indiqué sur votre avis d'imposition, ou de non imposition, de

l'année 2004 qui sera pris en compte.

- Si vous faites une demande

de CMU de base après le 1er octobre 2006 et jusqu'au 30 septembre 2007,

c'est le revenu fiscal de référence de l'année 2005 qui sera retenu.</i>

Our E106 runs into Jan 2008, so it will be our revenu fiscal de référence de l'année 2006 that will be relevant.

Do you know ... is that:

(a) the tax return (spring 2007) covering our first tax year in France (from arrival May 2006), or;

(b) the tax return (spring 2006) which might otherwise have been made (had we arrived here last year - 2005)?

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[quote user="chessfou"]Looking ahead, les lauriers said:

<i>Par exemple :

- Si vous faites une demande de CMU de base entre

le 1er janvier 2006 et le 30 septembre 2006, c'est le revenu fiscal de

référence indiqué sur votre avis d'imposition, ou de non imposition, de

l'année 2004 qui sera pris en compte.

- Si vous faites une demande

de CMU de base après le 1er octobre 2006 et jusqu'au 30 septembre 2007,

c'est le revenu fiscal de référence de l'année 2005 qui sera retenu.</i>

Our E106 runs into Jan 2008, so it will be our revenu fiscal de référence de l'année 2006 that will be relevant.

Do you know ... is that:

(a) the tax return (spring 2007) covering our first tax year in France (from arrival May 2006), or;

(b) the tax return (spring 2006) which might otherwise have been made (had we arrived here last year - 2005)?

[/quote]

Neither - Its your worldwide income for 2006 1st Jan to 31st Dec. Part of which (May 06 to 31sr Dec 06) you will have an RFR after you declare in spring 2007 - for  the rest, which  will be pre arrival and declared as a declaration on honour but they will probably ask for proof.

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Neither - Its your worldwide income for 2006 1st Jan to 31st Dec. Part

of which (May 06 to 31sr Dec 06) you will have an RFR after you declare

in spring 2007 - for  the rest, which  will be pre arrival and declared

as a declaration on honour but they will probably ask for proof. [leslauriers]

Thank you - absolutely clear.

 A little bit messy (in my case), so:

- a bit (Jan-Apr 06) of my UK tax return;

- Apr-May (which falls between that and first French return, although maybe a final UK return may be needed to cover this);

- all of my first French tax return (May-Dec 06).

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LesLauriers wrote:

"Debra, 2006 is correct.


Zeb, read the previous posts, CPAM payments are not connected to fiscal residency in France in the way that you imply, they are based upon income from the year two years before.

In the worst case scenario you could end up paying 8% after the first 6965€ based upon a year when you received redundancy, pension lump sum, Isa or Tessa income and a maturing endowment policy. All of which are tax free in UK but could add towards the CPAM charge if you manage to get your timing wrong."

Could I just check something regarding my own circumstances?  I am probably moving to France in October of this year, and would therefore aim to start my E106 from January 2007 to maximise its period of validity.  When the E106 expires in December 2009 (?), I would therefore avoid paying 8% tax on any income from 2006, as well as on any redundancy payment, AND avoid incurring higher cotisation costs as a result of this measurement against my 2006 income, as the measure would be against my 2007 income in France, which I suspect will be pretty negligible!  Correct?  If so, when are the cotisation costs reassessed to reflect actual income?  Annually? 

Scary!  [:'(]

Thanks in advance.  Mark.

 


 

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[quote user="Mark"]

LesLauriers wrote:

"Debra, 2006 is correct.

Zeb, read the previous posts, CPAM payments are not connected to fiscal residency in France in the way that you imply, they are based upon income from the year two years before.

In the worst case scenario you could end up paying 8% after the first 6965€ based upon a year when you received redundancy, pension lump sum, Isa or Tessa income and a maturing endowment policy. All of which are tax free in UK but could add towards the CPAM charge if you manage to get your timing wrong."

Could I just check something regarding my own circumstances?  I am probably moving to France in October of this year, and would therefore aim to start my E106 from January 2007 to maximise its period of validity.  When the E106 expires in 2008, I would therefore pay 8% tax on any income from 2006, as well as on any redundancy payment, AND incur higher cotisation costs as a result of this measurement against my 2006 income even though my post-October 2006 income is likely to be negligible.  Correct?  If so, when are the cotisation costs reassessed to reflect actual income?  Annually? 

Scary!  [:'(]

Thanks in advance.  Mark.

Correct, however you may well find that your E106 lasts for two years - it depends upon your NI record of payments in the years prior to asking for the E106 - you should phone Newcastle to determine your entitlement.

If it does cover 2007 and 2008 then in 2009 you will show your RFR from the French tax return you complete for 2007. Remember that you will have to complete a tax return from your arrival in Oct 2006 to 31st Dec 2006.

 Cotisations are reassessed annualy.

 

[/quote]
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LesLauriers, thanks, I actually edited my original posting (possibly at the same time you posted your response) after realising that I'd be eligible for two years on the E106, so I think I'll slip under radar as far as 2006 earnings are concerned.  Quite a relief.

Thank you for your clarity and reassurance.

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  • 5 months later...
Hi Coops

Our E106 expires in January and we're with the Le Mans CPAM.  We filled in the CMU application form, gave them copies of our letters from Newcastle, a copy of our 2005 RFR from the Centre d'Impôts; an English speaking lady from the CPAM subsequently rang us and told us we will get a letter from them in January to let us know our cotisations.  She says some time later we will get a bill from the URSSAF, but I never thought to ask if it was all to be paid in one lump. 

I have checked the URSSAF site and it says we can pay monthly, quarterly, half-yearly or annually.

Depending on your status you may not make your payments through URSSAF, but here's what they say:

Afin de mieux répartir vos charges et gérer votre trésorerie il est possible d’opter pour la mensualisation.

Ce choix entraîne obligatoirement un paiement par prélèvement

automatique le 20 de chaque mois. Ce mode de paiement permet d’éviter

tout risque d’erreur puisque le montant prélevé sera celui annoncé sur

l’échéancier. De plus vous êtes sûr que le paiement sera effectué à

bonne date.
 
Vous pouvez également régler vos cotisations trimestriellement, toujours par prélèvement, aux dates suivantes :

- le 15 mai pour le 1er trimestre

- le 15 août pour le 2eme trimestre

- le 15 novembre pour le 3eme trimestre

- le 15 février pour le 4eme trimestre

Enfin, un paiement semestriel est envisageable au 15 mai et au 15 novembre.

La date de paiement de la contribution à la formation professionnelle va varier selon la périodicité de paiement choisie.

Si vous optez pour un paiement des cotisations trimestriel, la CFP sera prélevée le 15 février.

Si vous optez pour un paiement mensuel, la CFP sera prélevée le 20 février.

Si vous optez pour un paiement semestriel, ce prélèvement aura lieu le 15 novembre.

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