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CMU de base?


needhelp
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As our existing E106 runs out next year we have been told to apply for a CMU de base.   Presumably this will be via the CPAM.

I have some questions:

1) what documentation will we need to provide, ie. salary slips, etc?

2) as we are not retired and salary is paid into our French bank account each month how do they base the contributions?

3) how much are the contributions, is it dependent on earnings? 

Many thanks

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 salary is paid into our French bank account each month 

If you are working in France then presumably you should be paying contributions via your employer. If you are working in the UK but commuting from  France then your UK contributions will cover you. If you are working for a UK company but doing the work in France on an ongoing basis ...................

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From the HMRC website:

Certificates of continuing liability:

About form E106.

Form E106 provides full healthcare cover, including cover for pre-existing medical conditions. Healthcare

is provided on exactly the same terms and conditions as it is available to insured persons in the European

Economic Area or European Community country in which the person will work. The E106 is usually issued

where the job abroad is more than 12 months at the outset.

 

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Yes, although the E106 is normally issued to non-working people such as the early retired, before they are eligible for E121, it is also used for those posted abroad for work, when the nature of the work is such that the posting will be longer than the normal E101 arrangement for temporary postings. There are certain conditions that have to be met for issue of E106, so it cannot, unfortunately, be given to everybody.

Normally, after a year or two, the arrangement has to be regularised, e.g. by the employee in France changing to self-employed status and/or operating through a portage company, or the employer setting up a subsidiary company in France. But the E106 option is open for special cases like civil servants rather than for the likes of you, me or Miki. It can be rather costly for employees to carry on post-E106, as unless the employer makes suitable arrangements, they can find themselves with bills for employer as well as employee contributions for social security, which together represent a considerable amount. 

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Yes Will is right. Its easy to assume that the E106 only applies to non-workers because 99% of the people who get the form are non-workers. The paragraph SD quotes , taken in isolation, could make you think that loads of people can qualify to work abroad and still pay into the UK system. In fact it refers you to another load of text which explains that certain bods working abroad for extended periods may be covered by e106 rather than e101s When you look at the examples they are virtually all providing services for the benefit of the Government machine.

The following groups of people are treated in a special way:

• mariners;

• civil servants;

• members of the staff of diplomatic or   consular posts;

• people who work for a member of the staff of a diplomatic or consular post;

• members of the staff of the European Community;

• members of Her Majesty’s (HM) Forces; and

• civilians who work for an organisation that serves HM Forces, or for HM Forces in Germany.

For the original poster I suspect the approach should have been an e101 followed by registration as a French worker with all that implies.

Incidentally the UK publication covering all this was updated in Jan 2006 and seems, a bit, clearer than the previous issue.

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/dwp/2006/sa29_jan06.pdf

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[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

From the HMRC website:

Certificates of continuing liability:

About form E106.

Form E106 provides full healthcare cover, including cover for pre-existing medical conditions. Healthcare

is provided on exactly the same terms and conditions as it is available to insured persons in the European

Economic Area or European Community country in which the person will work. The E106 is usually issued

where the job abroad is more than 12 months at the outset.

 

[/quote]

And this bit is from experience.

Many early clients and more recent, clients we knew about or helped,

when applying for their E106, some had admitted that they were going to

France to work, the result being that they were then expressly told

that the E106 was not applicable in those circumstances. Now having

said that, on the other hand we know of folks who say that they did tell the folks at Newcastle that they were off to France to work and were sent their E106 but................

Let's look at this part :

Form E106 provides full healthcare cover.

Now who believes that then ...full ?

Now put it another way, you tell the UK you are off to work in France,

no more no less, you arrive in France, begin a commerce or start

work...what good is your E106 ? One can see why the UK authorities,

when told one is off to work in France, will be told that an E106 is

not given out for those circumstances. But that of course is only my

experience, even having read the so called regs !

The E106 is usually issued where the job abroad is more than 12 months at the outset.

Do you start to see a pattern emerging here......usually...........................more than 12 months at the outset.....???

An E106 as I say, is not to be used in France, if one

is working self employed or for a French company and I cannot see how

it is used for working here for a UK company but for the latter part, I

have no experience or first hand knowledge.

As stated above, the folks who can use an E106 are

pretty limited and pretty rare, to my circle anyway, over many

years....but as ever, the regs are written so as to cover any

eventuality whereas in fact, in most E106 cases, it is not a goer for

the majority of folks who come here to work.

....

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Does anyone know the answer to my original question please.   I have already explored all the other options and the CMU de base is now the way to go.   I am not asking about the E106, as I said, this will not continue after next year.   I am not employed by an English employer, nor a French employer but I am employed and need to contribute to the French social system.

Please answer the original questions.

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Can't remember exactly, but we had to provide the previous year's avis d'impots, a letter from Newcastle to say that they will no longer be covering you (this should come automatically when the E106 runs out) and because our previous year's avis showed that we had only been in France from the April we also had to provide salary slips from the UK for January to March. 

Yes contributions are based on earnings.  I was very worried that they were taking 3 months worth of our UK salaries into the equation because we probably earnt more in that three months than we earn in a whole year here.  Anyway, we were very pleasantly surprised with the contributions requested.  They have to be paid quarterly and you are then reviewed each September as to how much you will have to pay the following year.

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If you are receiving a salary then someone is paying you for the work you are doing in France . Your employer who will need to employ you through a French branch arrangement. You and he will then need to pay the appropriate contributions, which will probably be something like 40% of salary depending on the nature of the work.

 

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[quote user="needhelp"]

I am not employed by an English employer, nor a French employer but I am employed and need to contribute to the French social system.

[/quote]

But should you not be contributing through your employer, if they have a base and/or you are employed in France, rather than CMU?

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   You will have to register as self employed , exactly who you register with will depend on the nature of your work  In effect you will be paying both employer and employees contributions which as I said earlier will probably amount to something like 40% of your earnings.

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The answer to your question is that as you are working in France you will need to register as such. Who you register with, and how you go about it, depends on the nature of your work and whether you are salaried in France or regarded as self-employed. In order to be regarded as salaried, you have to be employed by a French company from which the French authorities can collect the various employer contributions, which, as was said above, will amount to about 40% of your salary (and you will have to pay an additional 20% or so in employee contributions).

From what you say above it seems highly unlikely that you will be salaried, in the French official sense of the word, so you will need to register - probably with URSSAF, as I get the impression you are neither an artisan, a commercant, an agriculteur, nor an artist or any of the other individual cases. That will make you liable to self-employed contributions to the French healthcare and other social services, at around 46% of taxable income. You may like to consider being employed by a portage company, which is a sort of umbrella organisation that collects your salary, pays the contributions, and sends you a regular payment. It costs a percentage of your salary, but makes life a lot simpler.

If you are working, it is not possible to register just to pay healthcare contributions. There are numerous other funds to which you have to contribute, whether or not you are likely to benefit from them.

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But I am not self employed, I have a contract with my employer who, due to the nature of the business is registered as offshore. I do not work in France, nor the UK as I am a Mariner.  So, you are saying that I have to register (as what?) and say I am self employed when in fact I am not, I have an employer.

Very confusing!

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Your employment position is becoming a little clearer. 

I don't know whether you have made a tax declaration in France or not. 

You may have difficulty in contributing to CMU unless you have already made a declaration d'impots, as CMU contributions are based on

your taxable revenue shown on the tax assessment (as I understand it).

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Sailors are of course one of the exceptions listed whereby an extended E106 can be issued. Don't quite understand how you qualified for a UK E106 if you weren't paying into the Uk. Anyway  the French have their own exceptional arrangement  for sailors so the best thing is probably to contact them.

ENIM  Etablissement nationale invalides marine. Who provide health and pension cover for all involved in marine activities.

http://www.mer.equipement.gouv.fr/enim/prestations/prestations.htm

 

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Ypu didn.t say you were a mariner, just that you worked for an 'offshore company'. As BJSLIV says, there are arrangements in France, as there are in most other countries, for seafarers. You may qualify to pay into CMU, or you may even be one of those people who is permitted to have private medical assurance. It all depends on the kind of roots you have in France, I think, e.g. whether your main home is in France, and whether you have dependents and family living there - I do know about seafaring but know less definitive information about how French health insurance relates to them. Certainly where French-flagged vessels are concerned, there are some quite tight rules that the unions see to it are followed.
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It is indeed a very grey area.  I had already contacted ENIM a while back and they didn't know the answer to my problem.   Yes, perhaps they're good with mariners who work for French companies but in my case, they didn't have a clue.    After several phone calls to different Governmental/independent departments, I was none the wiser.   In France it seems if it doesn't fit into "black" or "white" they don't have a solution.
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You did well to get a 'don't know' answer. All too often French officials would rather invent an answer than lose face by admitting they don't know. Which is why it always pays to get a second (or third) opinion, and why so many people on forums like this think they know the answer but it doesn't work out that way at all. My gut feeling is still that without an E form, or an employer willing to contribute to the French social security system for you, you could be forced to go for private medical assurance. A lot of people will tell you this is illegal in France, but that isn't the case. There are rare examples where it is necessary, and permitted (and often surprisingly cost effective too as you are not paying into all sorts of other caisses for benefits that you will never use)
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Will - you are right on the money.  I don't know how the OP's situation will turn out, but we are REQUIRED to have private health insurance.  It is part of our requirements to live here.  We have to submit the proof of insurance statement every year.  And, yes, for us it is FAR less expensive than joining the French CMU and CPAM systems.

We had been told by so many folks (many on this forum too) that this process is not possible or not legal, but it was/is the French government officials that require it, so.....

You are right Will.

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The Prefecture in Avignon.  We have to submit all kinds of details - proof of health insurance (this was being asked to be translated by an official translator as the policy is written in English - however these last couple of years, they have accepted my own translation), a signed document saying I will not take employment, proof of income with source (again, they have been accepting my own translation of the bank documents, but they didn't the first few years), copy of Taxe d' Habitation and Fonciere bills, etc., etc., etc.

As to private health insurance.  We have used various ones.  The last one was MultiNational Underwriters (a Lloyds Policy writer).  We are in our forties, with one child, so I guess it can vary depending upon your circumstances.  They give you an option of taking a policy that includes all of the world EXCEPT the U.S.A. or a policy that gives worldwide coverage including the U.S.A.  If you choose the policy that does NOT include the U.S.A. - which is what we did, you will pay FAR FAR less.  The first year, we paid 1800 U.S. dollars for our family coverage.  This was with a 1000 U.S. dollar / deduction.  We are healthy, so chose the larger deductible.  They do offer lessor or higher deductibles for you to choose from.  The second year, same policy went up to 2200 U.S. dollars for the family for the year.  This is so much cheaper than most of the other policies we inquired about.  And, it is volumes cheaper than we would pay if we were in the French health system - based on income, hubby has a pretty good job.

If you want to check out the insurance company, you can go to   www.mnui.com or call them at 317-262-2132.  Office is in the U.S., so you need to add the 00-1 before the number.  We don't use them now as we switched back to the employer offered insurance plan for personal reasons.  I have no other connection with them other than two years of being a client.

 

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