Getting in quick

[Geranium]

My parents - in their 70's - are becoming increasing unwell. My father has a lung disease and is on oxygen and my mother has Alzheimer's.  I am anxious to get them both out here so they are with me and will receive good (better?!) health treatment.

My husband and I are still earning - and paying tax - so I don't know what the position is with those who are retired and moving here.  Their income would be pensions but how would we get them "in the system" and receiving benefits as quickly as possible?

I have searched the forum but don't know what the various forms mentioned are, so any advice would be very welcome!

[Will]

As they are, presumably, receiving the British state pension, they are eligible for form E121, from the DWP pensions service in Newcastle. This gets them straight into the French health system - take the forms to your local CPAM office.

They will get the same benefits as any other French resident, and will not have to pay CMU contributions (equivalent to the health component of the UK's National Insurance). That means they will receive 70% refunds of doctor's fees, 65% for most medicines etc. As they are in their 70s they may not be able to get a top up insurance at economic rates so they may have to fund the rest themselves. Some permanent conditions can attract full (100%) cover, but this has to be proposed by their GP and agreed by CPAM, and the 100% cover applies only to that condition - e.g. the lung disease may be 100% covered, but if your father broke his leg that would only be covered at standard rates.

As to whether the French health system is better than the NHS, that is open to debate. Each system has its strengths and weaknesses, waiting lists for most things are very much shorter in France for example. But things may change. I fear that the NHS may have reached its nadir and has to improve from now on. Conversely the French system is only just beginning to feel the effects of the cutbacks that have to be imposed because costs have spiralled out of control to a far greater extent than they were allowed to in the NHS, so things could well deteriorate. I think it would be unwise to move your parents here permanently solely for health reasons. But who knows - elections are nigh and all may change. That's only my guess after all and many other forum users will disagree with me.

[Teamedup]

And if your mother has to go into care or hospital in France with Alzheimers? Does she speak french, I was in hospital a year ago and they had not the time for any of us on the ward I was on. And absolutely no time for older patients, who did speak french.

This sounds really weird to me. And I don't think I appreciated the get them "in the system" and receiving benefits as quickly as possible........... us folks who pay tax and social security and CGS etc etc in France are supposed to pay are we?

And Will is right about the top up, hard to get over 70 years old.

[BJSLIV]

I think the cut off for easily obtaining cover is 75. As long as both parents are below that age, it should be fairly easy to get cover. Combining a decent complementaire with the E121 should, in the short term,  give the peace of mind the OP is seeking for the not unreasonable sum of £150 - 200 per month.

I agree that long term care is another can of worms all together.

[Tresco]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

And if your mother has to go into care or hospital in France with Alzheimers? Does she speak french, I was in hospital a year ago and they had not the time for any of us on the ward I was on. And absolutely no time for older patients, who did speak french. [/quote]

I agree with TU, not because I have experience of the French Health Care system, but because of your parents age, and particularly your mother having Alzheimers.

Even if she speaks French fluently, most people with this condition revert back to their 'mother tongue'. I should add that of all the people I have known with this condition, even those with the most devoted family members come to a point where they are able to cope at home.

That 'point' varies considerably. There is no predicting the course/length of the illness. Sometimes the person is a danger to themselves, sometimes to others, or both.

The strain on families is enormous. If neither of your parents first language is French, and you are still working, I would be concerned about the extent to which effective communication with carers/doctors/nurses etc is possible.

.

 

[Gardian]

I think that TU has put it somewhat confrontationally, but it does raise a point that I've often wondered about.

My impression always was that under the E106 regime, one's 'original' country (i.e. the UK) pays for one's health benefits.  At the point of moving to funding one's own benefits, i.e. cotisations, then you pay what you pay and the State picks up the difference, if any (just as if you were a French citizen).  When your E121 kicks in, then the UK pays (or is it that it pays a negotiated fixed amount per capita to the French Govt?).

Anybody know the facts? 

For the record, I personally have no difficulty with the concept of elderly parents joining other family members over here and legitimately obtaining benefits to which they are entitled under EU law.  I don't see the difference between that and any of us reaching 'more mature years', or for that matter them simply doing it of their own volition.   Now the practicalities (incl top up)............... that's maybe another matter.

[Russethouse]

 Is it relevant to ask if they have shown any desire to live in France apart from being close to the OP ?

 

[KathyC]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

 

This sounds really weird to me. And I don't think I appreciated the get them "in the system" and receiving benefits as quickly as possible........... us folks who pay tax and social security and CGS etc etc in France are supposed to pay are we?

 

[/quote]

I think this is a bit unfair as the UK government pays a set amount per month to the French health service for residents who have an E121. Also, unless retired people are on a very basic pension they'll surely be paying tax in France, the same as anyone who's working. You make it sound as though the French system has to cover non working incomers for nothing, which isn't the case.

[LesLauriers]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]

I think the cut off for easily obtaining cover is 75. As long as both parents are below that age, it should be fairly easy to get cover. Combining a decent complementaire with the E121 should, in the short term,  give the peace of mind the OP is seeking for the not unreasonable sum of £150 - 200 per month.

I agree that long term care is another can of worms all together.

[/quote]

Exclusive Healthcare, age 75 & OVER     981€

[Tresco]

Is this quote for anyone of that age, whatever their health status?

[BJSLIV]

Its good to see that Exclusive take on the oldies, though they are potentially a bit cheaper than my quote they do charge 1300 Euros per person for 300% cover.

As far as health status is concerned, I think insurers are not allowed to discriminate on health , they are only allowed to base their charges on age bands.

[LesLauriers]

[quote user="Tresco"]Is this quote for anyone of that age, whatever their health status?[/quote]

Yes.

"No medical questions,  no exclusions of pre existing conditionsn and no loadings or extra charges. Cover is immediate..."

"There is no age limit"

I quoted the price from an old internet link the up to date price should read 1018€ for 100% cover, 1154€ for 150% and 1357€ for 300% to full cover. They also do a basic hospitalisation plan at 643€. English speaking helplines.

[Tresco]

Thanks to BJSLIV and Leslauriers for the extra information.

I'll wait to see Bluebees response (if s/he wants to) about the possible problems with language, and the answer to Gays' very pertinent question, now.

[Will]

I would also point out, as did TU and Tresco, that if you are both working you would have difficulty caring for somebody with Alzheimers, but you will know that anyway. If you are expecting to be able to put elderly relatives into a good, caring environment under the auspices of the French health service, you should have a long hard look at what is available and what it will cost. I don't know how things are in your part of France, but you may find that they would be no better off in France than under the NHS.

[Llwyncelyn]

Teamedup.  I too think that your approach is somewhat frontal and direct but that may be the way you are made.

Let us broaden the argument.  Should those of us who pay all our taxes our contributions sociale and everything else in France have to continue making contributions for those who have to go into hospital for issues such as smoking drinking or dare I say it bikers who come off bikes whatever and just because lots of us say do not drink or do not smoke or ride bikes or indeed ride horses or shoot or fish.

As I understand matters the reciprocal agreements are agreed between the countries and set sums are set aside for the process.

TU a contributor to this Forum has a serious family problem and it would be interesting to learn of your approach in such matters if it was your family members.  I thought one of the aims of this forum was to assist and whilst you undoubtedly have a problem with the contributor and his or her approach there are very many ways to get your argument across.

TU doucement. (with respect)

 

[Will]

I think one comment of TU's is being taken out of context. The point I understood she was making was to wonder about the wisdom of moving elderly relatives to a different country, where the care they may receive might be perceived as 'better' in many respects but still might not be the most appropriate for them, and their conditions. Who would pay was a secondary point. 

I quite agree that 'health tourism' is an issue, as is the treatment of those who have self-inflicted illnesses, but it is not the basic issue under discussion here.

[Llantony]

" the not unreasonable sum of £150 - 200 per month. " 

That will be a hefty chunk of our small retirement income!  What about people who can't afford it?  Not specifically us, but thinking of some of our French neighbours who don't work and are well below retirement age (only about 30 in some cases)?

'75 & OVER     981€'  if that's per month we'd never afford it.

Re original question, I've wondered myself if I'd forget French if I live to be very old . 

 It would be terribly confusing for a British person with Alzheimer's to be in a residential home in France.  But perhaps the idea was to care for them at home?  There may come a point  where the person can't be left alone. I'm worried about my mother as she becomes increasingly forgetful and illogical but I don't think I'd take her over to France to a totally strange environment.

[Teamedup]

Will has understood me along with a couple of others.

 Llwyncelyn, doucement, LOL since when have french people been doucement when they have something to say. Sorry off subject but yesterday we needed a little sewing job doing urgently. I called into a little shop I know of and was extremely apologetic and humble and asked if there was any way the lady could help us. I am very very good at doing apologetic and humble and I meant it yesterday too........ The lady was slightly grumpy, but only slightly enough for me to be hopeful and I took her phone number and said I would ring as soon as I got home. I called her, well what a slagging off I got. How could I expect her to jump other clients for me, so no, not possible now I'd asked again. I wasn't that surprised and was left shrugging. Nothing abnormal about this at all. After so long, if a little has rubbed off, then it doesn't shock me.And I haven't been  anywhere in France, where an opinion in it's rawest form is not given unsolicited by just about anyone. It is something that I don't 'get' on here and wonder how well most communicate. Incidentally, I don't do 'raw' but I know I can be brusque these days.

 

Right that is off my chest.

 

Back to this. Well, I have had friends who have had alzeheimers. Every single one has ended up in care eventually. If this happens as far as I know if a person hasn't enough personal money to pay for their upkeep then the family has to muck in. I don't think that care homes are cheap either. So that is something that should be taken into consideration. Not just immediate family either, even grandchildren are expected to help out.

And yes, fancy putting  getting into the french system and receiving benefits......... Some of you may look up on the euro zone as some great community, but France still has to balance it's budget and when it can't then they start imposing taxes on the population. The healthcare part may be paid for by the brit SS system, but benefits, I don't think so. And in this case, there likely would be an eligibilty to quite a few benefits pre a carehome. So to me such a statement reeks of some sort of tourism, 'benefit tourism?' and I do not like it. I can't think of many french people who would either come to think, and I am getting enough 'comments' about those brits who come and use the RMI and CMU for freebies already thankyou very much.

  ps a very good friend of ours, very much our senior got alzeheimers and forgot he had stopped smoking 40 years earlier. Insisted on his fags again and then would leave them lit all over the house. His wife and daughter were not getting any sleep as he slept at odd hours and in the end after finding something smouldering he had to go into care. They really could not cope, I suppose that this is one of many things that can happen.

[Pommier]

 us folks who pay tax and social security and CGS etc etc in France are supposed to pay are we?

As I understood it TU will be moving back to the UK in the future where presumably she will wish to be covered by the NHS, even though she hasn't contributed to it? I have no problem with that, just as I have no problem with people joining the health service in France. There seems sometimes to be a degree of resentment from people who have lived here for years towards new arrivals and those planning to make the move.

[Geranium]

How great to see this morning so many messages to my post. Thank you so much for all the practical advice and pertinent questions.  At the moment I am simply trying to gather practical information as I can see the situation in the UK deteriorating rapidly.  I cannot be of much help to my parents if they are in UK and I am here.  BTW my husband and I both work from home using the wonderful technology of today, and can therefore be far more flexible with our time.

I think the question of who should pay for what has been covered.  Both my parents and us have paid taxes all our lives and there are reciprocal arrangements between the countries in the EU.

The question of my mother going into a home is a last resort but I am sure it will come when she finally needs 24 hour NURSING care.  Meanwhile I shall have to look at other options. My father can cope at present and will be able to do more if he has help coming into the home (and I shall be near too). I have a freind here whose husband has Alzheimers and I am watching the situation with interest.  Our best friend here is a french doctor who we have known for 20 years and who speaks excellent english.  I've noticed homes are being expended or new ones being built at quite a rate around here so feel we sould have plenty to look at if we have to decide to go down that route.

I don't want them to simply up-sticks unless there is a strong arguement for doing so. But as my father becomes worse, his social circle in UK decreases (for instance he can't manage going to watch football any longer) whereas here he could still be fairly independent and be close to us where he would become part of our social circle.

I must admit I got a little confused about the Health Insurance points mentioned with the different cover and quotes.  Could someone spell this out simply as to what those over 75 would need to take out?  Thanks again everyone and I look forward to further replies. It's a worrying time.

[Geranium]

Me again as I have just read the last comment from Teamedup.  I think you misunderstood me when I used the word benefits.  Probably quite understandably.  My friend whose husband has Alzheimers benefits from the following:  3 times a week someone comes in to do the housework so that she has more time to spend with him; every mornign a nurse comes in to get him up, showered and dressed; once a week someone sits with him so she can have a couple of hours to herself, catch up etc.  This is what I meant.  There seems to be a far better system here for helping people remain independent for as long as possible and I feel sure that my mother and father could stay in their own place here (I was thinking they could rent a small bungalow near us) for much longer if they could get in the system and therefore have this sort of help.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Llwyncelyn"]

Let us broaden the argument.  Should those of us who pay all our taxes our contributions sociale and everything else in France have to continue making contributions for those who have to go into hospital for issues such as smoking drinking or dare I say it bikers who come off bikes whatever and just because lots of us say do not drink or do not smoke or ride bikes or indeed ride horses or shoot or fish.

 

[/quote]

This stupid statement has got to be a wind-up......................................................right..

[Llwyncelyn]

Of course Bugbear.................perhaps not the best approach knowing as I do that there are people on this forum that like nothing better than getting out on their bikes.  Indeed my very best friend as three bikes including a BMW and he is a retired in France (and a very senior and I mean senior Police Officer) and likes nothing better than just leaving his wife and getting around the mountains of the Auvergne.  Has never appealed to me for I have enough problems with cars but I can see his point as to bikes.  Thus absolutely no offence meant.

What I was trying to say is that people suffer from and as Will says from self-induced illnesses such as smoking or drinking should we as a nation be it in the UK or here pay for that medical cover. Some would say yes and some would say no.  Indeed there are Consultants in the UK who have taken a stance on smoking.

Finally my late Mother died from pnenmonia associated with Alzheimer's so I know what it does to the person.  My late Father died from a combination of working down the pits and smoking so I know what both of those do!

rdgs

[BJSLIV]

I know its on the old borderline of what is medical need and what is just frailty, but old people care in France is even more of a can of worms than in the UK.

Prime responsibility falls on the family, and the authorities put a lot of effort into tracking down family members who are held financially responsible for care home fees. So in France the net goes beyond the old selling the family home issue encountered in the UK. I'm sure this is one additional reason why French families encourage Gran to remain self sufficient as long as possible!

I know that the main consideration must be your concern for your parents welfare, but may want to check out the  implications for your own bank balance.

[Geranium]

Does anyone have experience or knowledge of care home fees in France?  One I know of is about 1000 euros per month. In UK my father thinks £650 per week is expensive but I have friends paying £48000 per year and over!