5 year residency rule says confirmed -reads Connexion newspaper November page8

[Cat]

It looks like it's the same article I linked to at the top of this page.  I've a google news alert set, and the Telegraph hasn't published anything new about this issue recently.

Unless it's the French Graveyard article, ye gads, we're not there yet.

[Helen]

The connexion has now put this on line. I haven't read the November article so don't know if its just a quote but it claims that ithe rule was confirmed by Stephanie Gaillard today.

http://www.connexionfrance.com/expatriate-news-article.php?art=55

It is different to the original telegraph statement since it states that a permanent resisdent cannot be refused access to the CMU.

I think a third attempt to get a new titre de sejour is in order.

[Maggie]

This is so frustrating for everybody ... we applied for our new titre de sejour via the Mairie a while ago - before these health issues arose.  We enclosed a letter saying that we had lived here some five and a half years and would be grateful if they could issue us with a permanent / replacement titre.  The Prefecture refused, quoting the usual Directive, i.e. that EU citizens don't need one any more.  Since hearing about CMU and the proposed changes (we don't have an E121, and won't be getting one for 8 years), we've rung the Prefecture quoting Ms Gaillard on a couple of occasions ... each time we've been told that we don't need a new titre or declaration.  We've also rung CPAM, but again they seem to know nothing about anything, except the fact that CMU cover will cease in March!  We received the dreaded letter literally just after we sent them copies of all our avis d'impots ... now we have just received another attestation, which appears to say that we have cover for a year ... but we're not holding our breath.  Has anybody had any luck with obtaining a new titre de sejour so far??

[Sunday Driver]

Prefecture staff will continue to follow their own internal 'refusal' policy until such times as prefects tell them to do otherwise.  The Ministry will likely instruct the prefects to resume issuing the TdS, but as the five year ruling has only just been confirmed (although not yet reflected on the official DSS website), this won't happen by lunchtime.....

 

 

[Maggie]

Thanks SD ... you have kindly confirmed what we wondered - on the positive side, at the least the 5 year ruling has been confirmed at last!

Many thanks

[Richard]

[quote user="Maggie"]

Thanks SD ... you have kindly confirmed what we wondered - on the positive side, at the least the 5 year ruling has been confirmed at last!

Many thanks

[/quote]

I haven't seen anything that confirms it definitively yet - apart from the Connexion article. Have I missed something somewhere? As far as the 'permanent' TdS is concerned, is there actually a 'right' to be issued with one, i.e. if you choose to ask for one, it cannot simply be 'refused', or am I misinterpreting the rules?

[Maggie]

Sorry, my mistake, I meant to write 'at least the 5 year ruling has almost been confirmed at last'.  I should have checked before I posted [:$]

[Richard]

[quote user="Maggie"]Sorry, my mistake, I meant to write 'at least the 5 year ruling has almost been confirmed at last'.  I should have checked before I posted [:$][/quote]

There appears to be an 'update' on the Connexion website, dated 6th November. Is this 'new' news or just re-confirmation of 'old' news?

Ooops - sorry, seems I'm a bit late with this - didn't read all the previous posts.

[krusty]

In the reply to Mary Honeyball`s question the EC seam to confirm the 5 year rule ,I know it only confirms what we know and the last word is up to the French,

 quote

P-4833/07EN

Answer given by Mr Špidla

on behalf of the Commission

(7.11.2007)

 

 

The Honourable Member refers to the situation of British citizens residing in France who, due to a change in French legislation, can no longer be covered by the "Couverture Maladie Universelle" (CMU), which is a French sickness insurance scheme for persons who are not insured under any sickness insurance scheme for specific categories of insured persons.

 

Under Regulation (EC) No 1408/71[1], workers and pensioners, as well as the members of their family, residing in a Member State other than the one in which they work or which pays their pension, are entitled to sickness benefits in the Member State of residence under the same conditions as a national of this Member State, but on behalf of the Member State where they work or which pays their pension.

 

The Commission draws the attention of the Honourable Member to the fact that Regulation (EC) No 1408/71 only covers workers (employed and self-employed), students, civil servants, pensioners and the members of their family and their survivors. However, European citizens who do not come under any of these categories, e.g. post-active persons who are not - yet - entitled to a statutory pension, would not be covered by Regulation (EC) No 1408/71[2]. In such cases, only national legislation applies.

 

Under Directive 2004/38/EC, inactive Union citizens must have sufficient resources not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State, and comprehensive sickness insurance coverage in the host Member State. Following the acquisition of the permanent right of residence (normally after five consecutive years of legal residence) these conditions are no longer applicable.  Furthermore, the Directive provides that Union citizens shall enjoy equal treatment with the nationals of that State within the scope of the Treaty establishing the European Community.

 

The Commission will contact the French authorities in order to obtain detailed information about the French legislation on the "CMU" and examine its compatibility with Community law.

 

[vervialle]

This might have been asked before, but how do students fair that are studying at French universities, I mean any european student.At our university in the U.K. we register all european students into the N,H,S, for free we give them a health check when they register and they do not pay for visits to the doctor. They get contraceptives free and help with drug problems, they can attend our accident and emergency units for free, so I am interested on the French System.Surely as a member of the European Union they have to do the same.

[Lucinda]

University students register with their own mutuelle and, depending on circumstances, either pay around 190 euros per year or get free cover. The free cover is applicable to students who are in receipt of a bourse for their education. They stay with their mutuelle until the end of their education. My son is with LMDE who are one of the two mutuelles who do this cover.

Lucy 

[Will]

British students in other EU countries used to be covered by the E128 - one of the forms that the EHIC has superseded. So I imagine foreign students in France would use the EHIC, or have private assurance if they are not from Europe.

As I mentioned elsewhere, an insurance agency based in Dinan has advertised that non-working British in France below state retirement age who have been resident in France for five years will not need private assurance. Obviously not definitive, but should be taken seriously as an insurer could be doing itself out of some good business if it is wrong. See www.angloagence.com though the web site is not very informative.

[Me0wp00]

We went to the prefecture yesterday with CDS that run out early december, requested the tds for 20 years and was told oh no u dont need one, i'd gone prepared with the print out from the .gouv website and said we want one of these anyway and then was told, oh no after the 5 year one its then a 10 year one, I repeated I wanted a tds PERMANENT !!!! and she went away and looked on her computer.  10 mins later came back with her boss and said we need to apply via the mairie, 3 photos, copy of passport, old cds and an attestation by the mairie to say we have lived in france for 5 years without a break of more than 3 months in any 1 year period and an edf or habitation bill to our address in last 3 months. No need for tax forms for them !!! I explained why we needed it and she said that the info on the computer hasn't changed yet to tell them why people need one but that it shouldnt be a problem to get it.

Off to mairie later today

hth someone

Pippa

[Helen]

[quote user="Me0wp00"]

3 photos, copy of passport, old cds and an attestation by the mairie to say we have lived in france for 5 years without a break of more than 3 months in any 1 year period and an edf or habitation bill to our address in last 3 months.

Pippa

[/quote]

I'm glad that they've agreed the possiblility of granting one but they're altering the conditions. (making up as they went along?)

La continuité du séjour sur les cinq ans peut être prouvée par tout moyen. 

Ne sont pas prises en compte les absences temporaires ne dépassant pas six mois par an, and you can also have longer absences for important reasons.

[rivendell]

Today I visited our prefecture to collect my renewed carte sejour, its valid for another 5 years, I asked about the 5 year rule for getting readmited to the C.P.A.M , and it was explained to me that after 5 years you are able to apply  to become French citizen, you have to speak very good french and many other things, it was also exlplained that this can take some time!  This is what is meant by the five year rule not just been able to prove you have lived here for five years, also it is only the Pefecture that can confirm your residency,it was pointed out to me that the date I arrived in France was printed on the back of my Carte Sejour and of course in all that time you have to have filled in  a Tax form , this came as a bit of a shock!  They told me that if I wanted to get the benefits of French people then  I should apply to become a citizen , this is what is meant by the five year rule and that it is the only way to get back in the system

[Sunday Driver]

The individual you spoke to at your CPAM has clearly no idea of the legal criteria for residence as applicable to an EU citizen.

However, they were correct in advising that the prefecture issues the carte de sejour.  They were also correct in stating that if one is resident in France, then one will have submitted tax returns.  I'm surprised this came as a shock to you....[;-)]

 

[Helen]

French citizenship by naturalisation is  different to the  permanent residency of an EU citizen within an EU country. For the former you do indeed need a good knowledge of French and wish to become French. There is potential for confusion in that a person is allowed to apply for French citizenship after five years residency. Permanent residency(EU) is a new status given by the EU directive which demands health assurance and resources for EU citizens before the five year mark but not after it. 

[rivendell]

After reading your latest posting ,I think you may have to read again the legistation 2004/38/EC,  I again  returned to the Prefecture after reading you comments, and I quote frome the prefecture( he may of course be wrong it won`t be the first time) Quote France has has interpreted the       " 5 year residency"  period to equal -foreigners can then apply for FRENCH nationality after 5 years of permanent residency-this can take a long time . this will then mean that they will be treated equally with every other French citizen and then will be readmitted  to the health system. it is not an automatic right just because you have lived here for five years, he said be very careful when reading 2004/38/EC you are not reading it correctly:   end of quote.

Hope the  ear man is wrong , because it will make things very difficult for many people , I suppose we shall have to wait and see.......

[Sunday Driver]

2004/38/EC is an EU directive which forms the basis upon which national law is enacted.  The national law which applies in France and which concerns the 'five year rule' is the code de l'entrée et droit du séjour et de l'asile. That law does not require anyone to apply for French citizenship in order to qualify for permanent residency.  It's quite pointless getting bogged down in an argument with a fonctionnaire about an EU directive when it's the French law which he has to follow.

That said, the prefecture man's interpretation of his own French law is incorrect - it's even contrary to the position 'leaked' by the French Heath Ministry.....