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E121/E106, Maybe A Strange Question


Grecian
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I would just like to add a few of my own considerations to the discussion of whether someone is fit and able to work or not, and whether it is right that a spouse who is fit and healthy should then be able to piggy back onto the holder of an E121.

I do feel it is time to try to educate the extremely lucky, healthy people who seems to think that this situation is a cop-out, and a way to freeload into the system.

Okay, so there are abuses to the system, (there always is, but these are a very small percentage), but what gives anyone the right to comment when they don't have the privilege to see behind closed doors, and then deem to think themselves high and mighty enough to make a blanket judgement on 'many' claimants, and make them feel that they have a duty to disclose 'private and confidential' information in order to justify their RIGHT to these benefits.

To qualify for these benefits, they need to undergo rigorous (and rightly so) examinations by a 'QUALIFIED' doctor, not Joe Bloggs at the benefit office, who can fall for a sob story.

My wife is registered disabled, but doesn't qualify for an E121 (She had been a young/fit housewife and mother at the time of her illness, and hadn't made the required NI contributions - even though her conditions are far worse than some claimants). I 'DO' work, when her conditions allow, and fortunately at the moment, can do so, and might I add, enjoy doing so! 

BUT..............there are many times when her conditions determine that I have to look after her 24-7. I am not going to go into those conditions, or what I may, or may not have to do.....for one thing, you wouldn't want to know, but also, it is simply no-one else's business! I don't resent this, I willingly take on this aspect of our lives, so that she can remain with us. Likewise there are occasions when you might see her shopping, or even pottering about in the garden, but these situations are a pleasure for us to experience, the sort of thing most people are fortunate enough to take for granted.

So, how do I reconcile the fact that 'there are times', although fit and healthy 'I' may luckily be, 'I' AM UNABLE TO WORK! Not because I am a freeloader or sponger, but because I want to care for her. Believe me, this can be a huge financial burden, the mortgage and other bills still have to be met!

That is why the powers that be include a spouse on the claim, they are all too aware of the implications of coping with just such a scenario. You never know when you are able/unable to work. Being self-employed makes the situation easier, because you can at least juggle your time - not helpful if you are committed to something or someone - you will soon go out of business! There would realistically be no possibility of obtaining a paid salary with the amount of time off that is sometimes required.

I often upsets me when many who speak to me says "your wife is looking well", yeah right, that's because she is thoughtful enough to hide away when she's not well, and thereby not have to suffer the indignities of their pity, whether sincere or not! So, therefore no-one but us, her immediate family, and her doctors would ever know just what she has to contend with (behind closed doors, in  privacy) - would that mean she doesn't really require, or deserve her disabled status?

We have been told that she would be lucky to reach 65 years, so we count everyday as a bonus, as should everyone. But we are not naive enough to plan for our retirement, we would however like to make the most of whatever time we have, including the right to move to France, and in doing so, not have to deal with self-righteous, judgemental, uninformed people.....we have more than enough problems already!

Just because you may observe someone who 'appears' to be fit and able, please, don't always assume that they are one of life's spongers! You don't have the required information to make that judgement................THE DOCTORS DID!

And also, please remember, "There but for the grace of........." She did nothing to warrent this happening to us, it could so easily have happened to you, or your loved one, or even me......what shall we do then?

Hopefully, you may never be in this situation, but I hope for your sakes, that your condemnation of these people doesn't come back to haunt you.

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Thank you Ebaynut for your post but it was totally unnecessary.   nobody doubts that there are truly sick people on IB , I actually said "I know that there are many who are totally, through constant pain or risk to their lives, unable to do any work but equally there are quite a few I know and I'm sure that others know, who could well work and do so on their own houses"

That is a fact and like it or not those people are faking it and you don't have to be a doctor to know that somebody laying a patio but cannot work due to chronic back pain is faking it!!.  Yes but for the grace of God and all that. but nobody on this thread accused you or your wife or the genuine disabled of  of scrounging or faking it, unfortunately whether you like it or not, there are a number of fakers here with perfectly fit and healthy partners who play the system to perfection with the original support of sympathetic doctors in the UK and ambivelant doctors here. If you have anger, aim it at them.

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While EBaynut makes a case for people who are genuinely incapacitated and whose husband/wife may have to care for their partner from time to time I wonder just how his description is relevant to many of the E121 holders in France.

I know several  E121 holders and in every case their husbands have retired with a full pension,below state retirement age  and in good health.Neither of them work and have no need to work,and the person on the E121 also has a pension

They are exactly in the same situation as myself except that while I pay for my health care via CMU at 8% they pay nothing thereby gaining this sum.

I just feel that in these situations the healthy retired partner should pay for their health care

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[quote user="Boilog"]

While EBaynut makes a case for peopfor people who are genuinely incapacitated and whose husband/wife may have to care for their partner from time to time I wonder just how his description is relevant to many of the E121 holders in France.

I know several  E121 holders and in every case their husbands have retired with a full pension,below state retirement age  and in good health.Neither of them work and have no need to work,and the person on the E121 also has a pension

They are exactly in the same situation as myself except that while I pay for my health care via CMU at 8% they pay nothing thereby gaining this sum.

I just feel that in these situations the healthy retired partner should pay for their health care

[/quote]

Ah, the equal world for all argument.

Well, it didn't work in Russia and it's not doing too well in China or North Korea.

What on earth has it got to do with anyone else when a couple are living here legally within the current legislation. It is worth noting that they pay into the system in many other ways.

Maybe it would be better to use our energies fighting the current injustice for the E106 holders .

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[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

I know several  E121 holders and in every case their husbands have

retired with a full pension,below state retirement age  and in good

health.Neither of them work and have no need to work,and the person on

the E121 also has a pension

They are exactly in the same situation as myself except that while I

pay for my health care via CMU at 8% they pay nothing thereby gaining

this sum.

[/quote]

So on the basis of ability to pay ie sufficient income

to afford the 8% payments, if you remain in that position when you or

your spouse, if you have one, reach State retirement age, then you'll

not be applying for your E121?

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[quote user="Ron Avery"][quote user="Boiling a frog"]

 I pose this question.

If one of the couple is unable to work and received an E121 which basically means cover for health care up to 70% in France why should the other half,perfectly fit, receive the same benefit

Seems unfair to me

[/quote]

But they do, it happens all the time, I know loads of people who are totally fit and healthy who pay no health charges because the other half has a work related IB, mostly teachers for some reason.

 I find it bizzare and scandulous that you can develop a stress related illness, leave the job that caused it, get IB, move to France and then don't work and lay by the pool all day and pay nothing for you or O/Hs  healthcare, marvellous, whilst others who have serious illnesses get nothing and will have to pay for their healthcare or leave France.

[/quote]

BAF,

I think you have missed a couple of things out from your posting.

The first line should read ebaynut makes a GOOD case for people who are genuinely incapicated, then you state you know several E121 holders, and that all healthy partners should pay. You clearly state that you know these people that receive benefits, but do not call them your friends, therefore you can not know what their circumstances are, only what you interpret them to be.

In my original posting, I did not quote anybody in particular as to how I have come to my assumptions, nor am I looking to fall out with anyone. However, if you read the quotes above from BaF and Ron Avery, although they don't state outright that 'everyone they know' who receives IB is 'fit & healthy', that is certainly the impression that is implied,  and I stated  in my posting that "there are abuses to the system, BUT these are a SMALL percentage".

Just how medically qualified are both of you? These people have all had INDEPENDANT QUALIFIED DOCTORS stake their reputations on their diagnosis, to classify them as unfit for for work - these doctors are all too aware that there are some that will try to pull the wool over their eyes, and that is why they have to have xrays/blood tests/scans.

If anyone was to meet my wife when she is out and about, they would NEVER think there was anything wrong with her. I presume, she also would be classed by the uninformed as 'FIT & HEALTHY'. She would never allow anyone who she didn't know intimately to see her when she is unwell, she is far too proud, and indeed many people we know very well are shocked when they do discover just how desperately ill she becomes. She doesn't want the constant, pityiful sympathy that being ill brings out in people. She wants to be treated normally, and to achieve this, has to put on a front. In the same vein, she rarely talks about her conditions, because she doesn't want to be known as a 'medical bore'.

But these people don't get to see that after seeing them for a couple of hours, being bright and cheerful, and to everyone's belief 'well', she can then spend the entire next day recovering from this innocent encounter. So I can easily imagine everyone saying 'clearly, nowt wrong with her!'

And that is what I am stating - only the doctors have this information - not Joe Public!

It is unfair to make blanket suppositions about people, you wouldn't state that most muslims are terrorists, or most Germans are Nazis, or that most blondes are thick (or would you?), so why is it okay to pick on the sick and infirm?

If you don't know them well, how do you know their circumstances? Perhaps you would prefer your partner to have a health issue so they would be able to obtain an E121, so that you don't have to pay. But believe me, I would much rather my wife was healthy.

Also, I have no anger to people who claim benefits when they are capable of doing jobs around their own houses. If that is the only way they can afford to get by, that is surely 'their business'. I feel sorry for them that that is how they have chosen to lead their lives, having to watch over their shoulders all the time for possible detection.

If they were caught, the money saved would not be used on the needy, or given back to the taxpayer, it would be used to "Liberate" another country, or to give another politian a huge payrise which they vote for themselves, (N Sarkozy just had 200%, I understand!).

I have read on several posts about the "terrible crimes" the English commit in France, they don't register their cars here, don't fill in all the forms for tax on time, and even work on the black. The English do not riot in the Paris suburbs, or shoot at the police. English people move to France for a peaceful life, they try to fit in with the French people, (lets face it, the French are pretty good at working on the black themselves). The English that want a different style of life move to Spain, so I am told.

I am not trying to change anyones minds on the subject of E121 holders, as clearly some peoples minds will never be changed, I am just trying to put  the other side to their views.

 

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Got to support Benjamin and Ebaynuts statements and hey I'm blonde!!

And I defy anyone to say they have always, all their life never ever broken the law.

Have you never just exceeded the speed limit by a mile or two, never just had that one glass of alchohol when you shouldn't have, never ever accepted cash for something and thought "oh blow it why I should I delcare that to the tax man".

Because if you are whiter than white and have never ever ever done anything you perhaps shouldn't have done then I take my hat off my blonde hair to you.

Some good points have been raised in this thread but at the end of the day the person at the top of the thread posed a question and it was answered by people who gave their experiences in their particular situation.

I don't think it should have ended up in a "lets get at those on benefits" thread.

And yes I agree lets give some support to those who are with an E106 and going to struggle if the mess does not get sorted out and feel for those people who want to move to France to join us in this better life, with or without a swimming pool, and are now having to think twice.

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[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]Sorry ebaynut, do you condone breaking the law, it depends on the where and who and how the crime is committed that matters?[/quote]

No Tony, absolutely not! Nor would I commit any such offence myself, and think it to be okay. My point is that imho most English do not move to France with the intention of committing 'crimes'. They are more likely to stay in England, or move to Spain. That is not to say that every UK citizen who has moved are all lily-white. Fraudsters, whatever nationality they are, will always use whatever opportunities are available. I stated, "there are abuses to the system, BUT these are a SMALL percentage", but not condonable! They have to live with constantly looking behind them.

The reason for my original response to this thread was to put my own considerations to whether a spouse should be able to piggy-back onto an E121.

What I have 'tried' to make clear, is that 'most IB claimants are NOT fraudsters', and it is very unfair to blanket judge MOST claimants, especially 'without the facts of their own private situation'.

We are NOT entitled to an E121, but if we were, would we claim? Absolutley, because it would be within our rights, to which we would be entitled! (I dare say we would then be judged by those who don't know our circumstances, as freeloaders).

We have paid very heavily, over many years, into the system for just such unforeseen circumstances making life difficult, as MOST of these people have. It is unfair that they are then made to feel like spongers and freeloaders, and that they constantly feel the need to justify their rights to the uninformed.

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[quote user="ebaynut"]

I would just like to add a few of my own considerations to the discussion of whether someone is fit and able to work or not, and whether it is right that a spouse who is fit and healthy should then be able to piggy back onto the holder of an E121.

I do feel it is time to try to educate the extremely lucky, healthy people who seems to think that this situation is a cop-out, and a way to freeload into the system.[/quote]

Hang on Ebaynut, whilst I have every sympathy with your personal situation I have just noticed that you don't live in France and have no property here, so how can you be so certain about how things work in respect of IB checks here or talk authoritively about the level of IB fraud in France when you don't even live here?

It seems that a few notables in the UK doubt the validity and thoroughness of the IB examination, David Cameron my hero [Www] reckons at least 200,000 should be off it right now see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7173453.stm and made to work and that many more are winging it so how thorough is that examination again?.  At the moment the government are only planning to do voluntary back to work interviews for existing claimants, but following Tory pressure they might adopt the Tories plan to check all of the 2 million people on IB to see how many of them are actually really unable to work, and as far as those hiding away in France are concerned about time too.

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[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

Shane and others ..........

An E121 has nothing to do with the level of assistance you get towards healthcare costs in France.  The E121 is issued in the UK and means (a) you are unfit for work because of a health problem and you are in receipt of IB or (b) you have reached statutory retirement age.

After arriving in France, you have to make a case to your GP for the 100% cover, who will then almost certainly refer you to a specialist, who will, in turn, then fill in the appropriate forms for CPAM to make a case for you to obtain 100% health care cover.  However, you do not get 100% of everything, you get 100% of the costs of treating the condition/s that you have of 'longe duree' of which there is a fairly flexible list.

Therefore if you break a leg, have appendicitis, need an arm transplant and if those conditions are not directly related to the original condition, you have to use the 70% state and 30% top up provisions.

100% does NOT mean 100% of everything as Shane's posting seems to indicate and certainly means more than dental care etc.

[/quote]

 

Sorry Tony F, I do not wish to fall out with you, but while you are correct in that most E121 holders recieve the benefits outlined by you, you are wrong to state that this applies to all E121 holders.

For the benefit of those people confused by the conflicting statements of Tony F and Shane, I will explain.

Shane seems to be totally correct to state that she receives 100% on everything, except blue label medicines on which she will receive 35%.

Tony F is correct for the majority of E121 holders, but despite his categorical statements, he has not checked his facts, and he has either forgotten, or does not know about, one group of E121 holders who do receive 100% on everything, perfectly legally.

If on your E121, the reason for issuance is described as invalidity, then you get 100% on everything in France, as Shane says.  This does not just apply to 'longe duree', but all illnesses, all transplants, all blood tests, x-rays, physio, infirmiers etc., and all white label medicines (or at least it did apply to all white label medicines until the recent changes in France).  Further, those described as "invalidity", do not need to make their case to their GP, and they do not need to make a case to CPAM.  CPAM do it automatically if the "invalidity" box is ticked.

These people, however, do not get 100% on dentistry or spectacles.  There may be other exclusions, but I have not come across them yet.

Hope this clarifies matters.

David

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Ron, you question how thorough is that IB examination? - well, my question would be how many quotas have to be filled by those doctors  to fail claimants by end of week to meet government guide lines. Some years ago I had my routine follow-up IB examination (after the government ruled a clamp down on all claiments) and by the time he finished with me I had to be taken out of the room and to my car in a wheel chair. He failed me. I appealed the judgement and eventually was re-assessed (some 10 months later) and was informed that I should never have been failed in the first place. So as I see it, it's not how thorough the examination but what do the government actually want.

 

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"Ron, you question how thorough is that IB examination?"

No I don't, only in France, where there is no incentive whatsoever for Doctors to take people off IB.   David Cameron, the Tory Leader is questioning it in the UK,  he says 200,000 should be taken off IB and made to work.  Its well known that in one part of the UK there are 10,000 on the dole and 220,000 on the sick so he might have a point do you think? Also I doubt that doctors in the UK have actual quotas for failing or passing anybody although in the past a lot seemed to think it was no harm to put people on the sick rather than on unemployment.  Now they are being encouraged to get people off IB and into a job and why not if they are able to work? 

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[quote user="Ron Avery"] 

I have just noticed that you don't live in France and have no property here, so how can you be so certain about how things work in respect of IB checks here or talk authoritively about the level of IB fraud in France when you don't even live here?

[/quote]

As the above poster has quite rightly pointed out, we do not yet live in France, and well done for trawling through all of our previous posts to find this out! [:-))]

We joined this forum, and subscribed to LF, so that we could find out all sorts of information on just how making the move would affect us, and have been provided with some excellent, quality advice from a large number of very knowledgable posters, including Clair, Russetthouse, Coops, S/D, Tony, puzzled, 5-E,  to name but a few.

We haven't always answered or joined in the threads concerned, but have found the information provided excellent, and are very grateful to all who have contributed to a variety of subjects on this forum.

Many hours of unqualified research has been spent searching various topics which would affect us, and as a result, felt that we had some knowledge on this particular subject, and which we would have preferred not to need to know anything about.

We certainly wasn't aware that you had to be living in France to contribute, or to have a different opinion from other posters. [8-)]

We could all find 'so called expert reports' which support whichever view we wish to make, "one man's terrorist, is another man's freedom fighter", but the simple fact is that I have repeatedly stated that IMHO these fraudsters are a 'SMALL MINORITY', and that it is not fair for the unqualified, and uninformed to categorise one particular group of people, as in the main being on the 'fiddle'.

 

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There seems to me to be a lot of residual resentment around, possibly because we have a suspicion that political capital is being made out of us here and the new government is using the "you can do it but you must pay your way" argument about incomers because we are an easy target and don't upset the voting public.  And many innocent and honest people are being affected perhaps because of a small number of people who have cheated the system in the past.

Equally, Mr Cameron is chucking around statistics about numbers of "cheats" within the system for his own political ends.  Fine.  That is undoubtedly his job, but his figures should be recognised for what they are - a vote catching ploy.  They do not mean that everybody claiming benefit is cheating - far from it.  For better or worse, we have the system we have and must trust the people who have actually examined and assessed the claimants.  They have met them and know their history, we have not.

Maybe I'm PC, which for some reason is considered an insult by some, but I prefer to give individuals the benefit of the doubt and give advice if I can.  Otherwise, what people do with this advice is between them and their conscience.  If you know a cheat personally, there are many ways to shop them.  That too, is between you and your conscience.

"Judge not lest you be judged," as some book I read once said.

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[quote user="ebaynut"]

[quote user="Ron Avery"] 

I have just noticed that you don't live in France and have no property here, so how can you be so certain about how things work in respect of IB checks here or talk authoritively about the level of IB fraud in France when you don't even live here?

[/quote]

As the above poster has quite rightly pointed out, we do not yet live in France, and well done for trawling through all of our previous posts to find this out! [:-))]

We certainly wasn't aware that you had to be living in France to contribute, or to have a different opinion from other posters. [8-)]

Nobody suggested that, but you lectured people on IB exams etc and E 121s without any first hand knowledge or experience, I do live in France and from my perspective and IMHO  there are a lot of people on fraudulent IB here,  teachers mainly, conveniently granted IB to coincide with their partners retirement, maybe all the fraudsters live in the south west[Www].

We could all find 'so called expert reports' which support whichever view we wish to make, "one man's terrorist, is another man's freedom fighter", but the simple fact is that I have repeatedly stated that IMHO these fraudsters are a 'SMALL MINORITY', and that it is not fair for the unqualified, and uninformed to categorise one particular group of people, as in the main being on the 'fiddle'.

And my point is still how do you know what the levels of fraud are in France as you don't live there?   Maybe Cameron has better information than either of us about the UK?  Maybe we should agree to differ on this.[:)]

[/quote]

 

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.......IMHO  there are a lot of people on fraudulent IB here,  teachers mainly, conveniently granted IB to coincide with their partners retirement, maybe all the fraudsters live in the south west.

I assume your comments are based on the first hand knowledge or experience that ebaynut is lacking...[;-)]

 

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Well Ron, the Welfare Reform Act 2007, the replacement fot Incapacity Benefit may (and I repeat may) change matters when it is brought into full use this year, I believe in October time, as it is or appears to be far more stringent in its dealings with claimants.   The act initially is for new claimants but there is scope in the act and a desire to include all those on the current Incapacity Benefit, so that they too would have to meet the new criteria including new medicals and mandatory work focused - interviews for some.   How on earth that would apply to those in France or those coming to France I have yet to find in the act which is somewhat difficult and truncated reading. 

There is light reading for those interested here :  http://www.disabilityalliance.org/f31.htm

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Bluebells

My reliable information is that interviews are now being given to new claimants, they have started, existing claimants can have a return to work interview if they want.  Cannot see many rushing back from the poolside in France to get a job at Tescos or a call centre can you?

SD

All 3 ex teachers I know are on IB -  stress related to their teaching jobs, all became victims of stress at the same time as their O/Hs took retirement.  As well as IB they get an E 121 for both partries and all are doing very nicely thanks in the stress free environment of living in France.  Others on here have relayed similar stories, so a coincidence or is it really only a minority that are fiddling IB and free healthcare in France then?[Www]

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[quote user="Ron Avery"]

All 3 ex teachers I know are on IB -

[/quote]

Ron, to counterbalance your 3, I'm an ex teacher not on any sort of benefit .I left because of what I thought was stress but which turned out to be a physical illness.

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